Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Pre-release)

Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

Sluis Van Shipyards said:
Really? That was confusing? Every time you saw the "handmaiden" Padme, the Queen was the handmaiden. Padme was scrubbing R2 because she was pretending to be a handmaiden! In Episode II they tell you at the end that Count Dooku is Darth Tyranus. Count Dooku is the public face. It doesn't make sense to be a Sith if you go around telling everyone. I don't see how that was any more confusing than "Ben Kenobi".
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Yeah, Really. I don't have a problem with secret identities in general, just clunky or unnecessary use of them. They told us at the end of Ep II that "Count Dooku" is "Darth Tyranus," but that was such a flat reveal I couldn't believe it. They'd gone out of their way to set up a noir-ish mystery up front (strained diner motif and everything), only to pull off Tyranus' mask and show us it was really some cruddyobvious villain we'd never met until later in the same movie. So lame, and exactly what we're describing with Snoke. It's more Scooby Doo than grand reveal which has inherent weight & surprise.

And as for Padme scrubbing R2... That's some serious dedication to the decoy status swap. What were the other actual handmaidens doing at that moment? Did R2 need immediate scrubbing from the most powerful person in their society? I'm not terribly well-prepared to debate the movie as I'm at least 15 years into my own personal memory wipe, but from what I remember they either go back and forth a few times (disorienting) or the handmaiden carries a couple moments which should belong to the Queen for proper narrative weight (stupid). I shouldn't bother arguing it though, as it's the least of the prequels' awfulness.

JD said:
Well said.

I never found the "pseudonyms and secret roles" confusing at all. I enjoyed it for the most part, Padme's reveal at the end of The Phantom Menace was a strong point of that film (for me, at least).

Sith Lord's hiding their identities is basic Star Wars lore (Anakin/Vader). If you're complaining about that, you may as well complain that they used lightsabers. ...or that we don't know who Rey might really be (theoretically, she still might tied to someone that we've seen before); or is it Finn or FN 1287?

Our history shows us (rumors of) royalty in disguise throughout history - including Henry V escaping execution in disguise, and Princess Diana and her future sister-in-law posing as police officers. Even King Arthur was disguised as a peasant at one point during those mythos.
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I don't know how saying that identity reveals were poorly or clumsily used in the prequels equate to my belief that no one ever disguised themselves in human history or that these devices can't be used to good effect in other stories. Oh, the mental backflips people will do to defend the objectively, truly awful prequels... The lame, unsurprising reveal of Dooku as Tyranus is the same thing as Poe giving a stormtrooper a human name or the all-time great plot twist that Darth Vader might actually be Luke's father? Because Rey might someday get a backstory means I might as well have an issue with lightsabers? :lol
 
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

JD said:
Padme's reveal at the end of The Phantom Menace was a strong point of that film (for me, at least).
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I've heard others say that as well.

from the first viewing I could tell when it was Natalie or not every time...though Keira really does look a lot like her.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

I think people are looking too deeply at names and secret identities in as so far as the PT and OT go.

Anakin/Vader - would have been a great one if had been unintended all along, but it wasn't. It was a great movie moment and total shocker, no doubt, but you don't get credit for good use of a secret identity when you had no clue til late in the filming of ESB.

Palpatine/Sidious. Pfft. Utterly pointless. We knew the senator was the emperor. The fact he had a darth name previously unknown to us is pointless.

Dooku/Tyrannus - i think this was the only real attempt at a secret identiy goes in the first 6 flicks. It just wasn't done very well. It was name dropped i think once before the reveal at the end of AotC. I think the only point was to make it so you didn't know dooku was involved with the clones until too late. Again, though, it was nothing special. I wondered much more why/what he was a 'count' of?

Ben/OWK - not a secret identity. More like a 9 year old not knowing Bill is short for William. Or a friend of yours has always gone by his middle name and you never knew his first name til just recently.

Padme/Amidala was done well IMO. You never caught on til the end of TPM - which was the point. Best way to keep the queen safe is to hide her as a handmaiden. No one expects it. In reality, yeah, it would be necessary, but it wasn't really necessary to the plot of the movie. Had she been the queen the whole time, not much would change.

The difference between 7-9 and the rest would be that the story group has laid out the basic story from 7-9 before starting 7. Therefore, a secret identity can work much better when you know it's there all along. Now, whether they use it or not, who knows.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

I really hope that Snoke doesn't turn out to be someone we already know. Or, at least not someone we already know well. I'd like nothing more than to know the guy's history and how he became a disciple of the dark side - whether there is a Sith influence or some other dark side sect. I definitely think it's for the best that Plagueis has been shot down. Personally, I'd like as few ties to the emperor and Vader from Snoke as possible. It makes sense for Kylo Ren to idolize Vader from a certain point of view, but I don't see a logical angle to lasso Palpatine's history back into the story going forward.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

Borjis said:
I've heard others say that as well.

from the first viewing I could tell when it was Natalie or not every time...though Keira really does look a lot like her.
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i thought it was obvious for the most part, too - I thought Portman's performance was especially strong in this scene as were some if the other actors.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

Westies14 said:
I don't know how saying that identity reveals were poorly or clumsily used in the prequels equate to my belief that no one ever disguised themselves in human history or that these devices can't be used to good effect in other stories. Oh, the mental backflips people will do to defend the objectively, truly awful prequels... The lame, unsurprising reveal of Dooku as Tyranus is the same thing as Poe giving a stormtrooper a human name or the all-time great plot twist that Darth Vader might actually be Luke's father? Because Rey might someday get a backstory means I might as well have an issue with lightsabers? :lol
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I commented in generalization towards the other poster - while your comments may've spurred the conversation, it surely doesn't mean it ends with you or all posts about it are about you.

I'm sorry you thought the pseudonyms and secret roles were "disorienting." Or that you thought "Darth Tyranus" ordered the Clone Army (it wasn't - he did hire Jango Fett). You might feel you're being "objective," but, I think perhaps you were just "disoriented."

Hopefully, you might have someone explain Keyser Soze if you ever sit down to watch The Usual Suspects.
 
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

You know what WAS confusing? That the kaminoans said syfo dias ordered the clone army and that 30 seconds later, Jango said he has never heard of him. That tyrannis hired him.

Considering that Jango had been working and living there for ten years (which was also kind of odd) that was a bit curious

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Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

Well, since they're picking up right where they left off, for the first time the opening crawl will truly emulate the movie serial crawls that inspired them. Instead of filling us in on what happened between episodes, it will instead have to summarize what happened in the previous one.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

astroboy said:
You know what WAS confusing? That the kaminoans said syfo dias ordered the clone army and that 30 seconds later, Jango said he has never heard of him. That tyrannis hired him.

Considering that Jango had been working and living there for ten years (which was also kind of odd) that was a bit curious

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You've got a point there. Oops on my part.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

JD said:
Hopefully, you might have someone explain Keyser Soze if you ever sit down to watch The Usual Suspects.
Click to expand...

Keyser Soze is comparable to Dooku/Tyrannus, Palpatine/Sideous/Sifo Dyas, Padme? I feel like we're speaking different languages, or at least definitely watching different movies.

The prequels may be subjectively good to some, but they are objectively filled with contradictions and plot holes. Beyond that, they objectively fail at many, many academic tenets of storytelling, and it's not as though their aim was some avant-garde sort of narrative to excuse those issues. People might enjoy 'em, but they're poorly told. I hope the sequels don't drop the ball so hard, and it's hard to imagine that Snoke could have a satisfying reveal as any existing character within the saga at this point. The films have a dubious history in this regard (unlike The Usual Suspects; let's not pretend any reveal is inherently equal to another) and I'm pulling for them to avoid those kinds of unforced errors.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

astroboy said:
You know what WAS confusing? That the kaminoans said syfo dias ordered the clone army and that 30 seconds later, Jango said he has never heard of him. That tyrannis hired him.

Considering that Jango had been working and living there for ten years (which was also kind of odd) that was a bit curious
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haha so did Obi-Wan (didn't he say curious right after that line from Jango?)

From my "point of view" Jango actually DID know and lied about it. (and he didn't want Obi-Wan to see his armor either)
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

astroboy said:
You know what WAS confusing? That the kaminoans said syfo dias ordered the clone army and that 30 seconds later, Jango said he has never heard of him. That tyrannis hired him.

Considering that Jango had been working and living there for ten years (which was also kind of odd) that was a bit curious


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Sifo Dyas ordered the clone army (with Dooku/Tyranus getting him to do so, though that's not in the movie). "Tyranus" hired Jango as the clone template, so he may not know about the Jedi connection. Of course, I think it makes more sense, if Jango's back story is canon, that he knows about the Jedi connection and knows the clones will be killing the Jedi.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

JD said:
Hopefully, you might have someone explain Keyser Soze if you ever sit down to watch The Usual Suspects.
Click to expand...

Years ago, my friend introduced me to The Usual Suspects. He was so frustrated with me when I knew right away what was going to happen.

It was sooo obvious!

Spoiler tags for those who may not have seen it:

In the beginning scene, we see a bad-guy making a big show of lighting some fuel with a lighter, then in the next scene we meet Spacey's character making a big show with fumbling with a lighter. I say, "He's the bad-guy from the beginning!" He was pissed!

As for the Padme/Amidala thing was even more obvious (to the point I was surprised it wasn't suppossed to be). I was already very familiar with Portman (Leon anyone?), so every time she switched roles it stood out.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

Westies14 said:

Keyser Soze is comparable to Dooku/Tyrannus, Palpatine/Sideous/Sifo Dyas, Padme? I feel like we're speaking different languages, or at least definitely watching different movies.
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The point being, if you found the pseudonyms and secret identities to be "disorienting" in the Prequels, well... you're in for a whole lot more watching The Usual Suspects.

It's a pity you can't remedy the difference between subjective and objective.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

JD said:
The point being, if you found the pseudonyms and secret identities to be "disorienting" in the Prequels, well... you're in for a whole lot more watching The Usual Suspects.

It's a pity you can't remedy the difference between subjective and objective.
Click to expand...

There's only one point to make when comparing the two: The Usual Suspects is a near-perfect script and execution, lightning in a bottle, actual artistic storytelling and filmmaking. The prequels are garbage. They're inherently confusing for all of the ways they contradict the OT, all of their self-contained plot holes, dialogue and performances so terrible that it leaves the audience in the dark as to many characters' motivations at too many moments, all of those things fanboys have to bend over backwards to try and explain in tenuous ways outside the confines of the actual films - and the needless, clunky identity bits aren't doing them any favors.

The point I am making is that they shouldn't pull a "Dooku" with Snoke; that this saga already has its share of anticlimactic reveals. If they can manage to pull of a Keyser Soze with him I'll be very surprised and happy.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)

Westies14 said:
There's only one point to make when comparing the two: The Usual Suspects is a near-perfect script and execution, lightning in a bottle, actual artistic storytelling and filmmaking. The prequels are garbage. They're inherently confusing for all of the ways they contradict the OT, all of their self-contained plot holes, dialogue and performances so terrible that it leaves the audience in the dark as to many characters' motivations at too many moments, all of those things fanboys have to bend over backwards to try and explain in tenuous ways outside the confines of the actual films - and the needless, clunky identity bits aren't doing them any favors.

The point I am making is that they shouldn't pull a "Dooku" with Snoke; that this saga already has its share of anticlimactic reveals. If they can manage to pull of a Keyser Soze with him I'll be very surprised and happy.
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You must still be "disoriented" from all those 'confusing' identity swaps in the Prequels. There are very obvious differences between those movies - no one is comparing them (as one is a very adult film and the other is kiddie-science fiction/fantasy); well, at least I'm not (outside of what I thought were simple false identity plotlines - heck, my nieces and nephew were able to follow them... and they were under 10 when they watched).

One could argue either way about any of those films - as personal opinion, interpretation, experiences and beliefs form our subjective views. Based on your comments, there is no way you could be objective about the Prequels. Regardless, I'm not trying to defend those movies and I'm not sure why you're trying to turn this into that type of debate.
 
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