Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

[JPH]

It's about family.

Isn't there always money in the banana stand?

I saw a video where a guy goes through all of the absurd turns in TLJ. Like you all just illustrated, you thinks it's going left...left...left and it turns right. I remember hearing how TLJ looks like a bunch of ideas/scenes thrown together with no regard for continuity.

On so many levels, it is a failure.

I don't recall Snoke talking about training, but everyone who defended the story claiming Snoke wasn't a Sith, he wasn't some kinda bad guy with bad guy training capability, goes away.

Did I mention TLJ being a failure?

He reminds me of bands that just want to be LOUD. Not good, not talented, just loud. If you could tell they were out of tune, you were paying too much attention.

Kylo needs Teamosil

 

[sztriki]

Isn't there always money in the banana stand?

I saw a video where a guy goes through all of the absurd turns in TLJ. Like you all just illustrated, you thinks it's going left...left...left and it turns right. I remember hearing how TLJ looks like a bunch of ideas/scenes thrown together with no regard for continuity.

On so many levels, it is a failure.

I don't recall Snoke talking about training, but everyone who defended the story claiming Snoke wasn't a Sith, he wasn't some kinda bad guy with bad guy training capability, goes away.

Did I mention TLJ being a failure?

He reminds me of bands that just want to be LOUD. Not good, not talented, just loud. If you could tell they were out of tune, you were paying too much attention.

Kylo needs Teamosil

To be fair, it was tcsmit29 who came up with the left-right turn, I just added the Carrie quote cuz that's what Redlettermedia was using as a running joke for a while: "subvert expectations and it's about family".
But yea, the band analogy works too. To me it simply comes down to the notion that subverting expectations is easy, just check what's most likely to happen or what's expected and you do something else. Making it in line with previously established things and making it feel like an organic extension is trickier.

 

[JPH]

To be fair, it was tcsmit29 who came up with the left-right turn, I just added the Carrie quote cuz that's what Redlettermedia was using as a running joke for a while: "subvert expectations and it's about family".
But yea, the band analogy works too. To me it simply comes down to the notion that subverting expectations is easy, just check what's most likely to happen or what's expected and you do something else. Making it in line with previously established things and making it feel like an organic extension is trickier.

And it isnt like we dislike a great plot twist, we dislike an stupid plot twist in every scene.

Gee, Luke threw his lightsaber away...
Leia Poppins. Hyperspace ignores shields...again. kylo wont kill his momma, but his wingmen will. Do the First Order go after the engines, nope, the bridge. Let's *not* waste fuel, but we will pursue for 18 additional hours. Its like a bucket o stupid special.

I remember a Second City tv episode about a bank heist where the driver looks at his fuel guage and decides to leave and top off the tank while the bank is being robbed... I still laugh about that scene, but it was *meant* to be funny.

 

[SofaKing01]

DELETE

 

[niennumb1]

I still can't get past the whole lightsaber flub in the Luke/Kylo duel.

Luke's saber (referencing the very point in time of aging/intent Luke projects himself to Kylo as he remembers him) should be his master hilt and with a green blade. Did any SPFX person at all from ILM, probably among some of the most passionate fellow Star Wars geeks in the world, stand up and confront anyone about this??

Or was the intent that Kylo be amazed that Luke somehow magically recovered back his old hilt from when it split in 2 by Kylo and Rey from the dreadnaught just earlier and now fully repaired and functional for the duel?

And an unrelated question... Do you think Rian Johnson will ever show up to another convention again prepared and able to wittingly answer face-to-face any gotcha questions from the "manbaby" fans as well as he does in his remarks on twitter?

 

[PantheraGem]

Who knows? At that point, who cared?

 

[mkstewartesq]

I still can't get past the whole lightsaber flub in the Luke/Kylo duel.

Luke's saber (referencing the very point in time of aging/intent Luke projects himself to Kylo as he remembers him) should be his master hilt and with a green blade. Did any SPFX person at all from ILM, probably among some of the most passionate fellow Star Wars geeks in the world, stand up and confront anyone about this??

Or was the intent that Kylo be amazed that Luke somehow magically recovered back his old hilt from when it split in 2 by Kylo and Rey from the dreadnaught just earlier and now fully repaired and functional for the duel?

Actually, I think this was intentional and easily explained.

Luke wanted to strike fear into Kylo and present himself as a formidable enemy – so he manifested himself as he would’ve been when Kylo last saw him, not the more aged (and broken) man he was “in real time”. To further rub salt in the wound, he appeared with the Graflex – which was meant to (a) demonstrate that Rey had been successful in her mission of returning it to him (thereby signalling that Kylo had failed in his quest to reach Luke first), and (b) rub a bit of salt in Kylo’s ego/wounds, as Luke no doubt suspected that Kylo felt that lightsaber to be his rightful property and so seeing Luke with it would be a further irritant.

That being said, Luke had no way of knowing that the lightsaber had been destroyed after Rey left him (there’s nothing in canon I am aware of that indicates that a Jedi can sense the presence of a lightsaber in the force) – so he manifested with it, ignorant that the detail "didn't fit" anymore. As far as why Kylo didn’t pick up on this glitch in details – I can only assume that his rage at seeing Luke kept him from noticing. Or he assumed that Luke built another saber like his father’s in the intervening time. Doesn’t matter which.

M

 

[niennumb1]

Actually, I think this was intentional and easily explained.

Luke wanted to strike fear into Kylo and present himself as a formidable enemy – so he manifested himself as he would’ve been when Kylo last saw him, not the more aged (and broken) man he was “in real time”. To further rub salt in the wound, he appeared with the Graflex – which was meant to (a) demonstrate that Rey had been successful in her mission of returning it to him (thereby signalling that Kylo had failed in his quest to reach Luke first), and (b) rub a bit of salt in Kylo’s ego/wounds, as Luke no doubt suspected that Kylo felt that lightsaber to be his rightful property and so seeing Luke with it would be a further irritant.

That being said, Luke had no way of knowing that the lightsaber had been destroyed after Rey left him (there’s nothing in canon I am aware of that indicates that a Jedi can sense the presence of a lightsaber in the force) – so he manifested with it, ignorant that the detail "didn't fit" anymore. As far as why Kylo didn’t pick up on this glitch in details – I can only assume that his rage at seeing Luke kept him from noticing. Or he assumed that Luke built another saber like his father’s in the intervening time. Doesn’t matter which.

M

That al does make sense in explanation, but that sure didn’t come across well in the film. Kylo just looked satisfied to finally have Luke where he wanted him to fire upon, and then just enraged that he didn’t die and fixated on just killing Luke himself.

I’m glad to know this explanation of things, but as a Star Wars fan of 38 years I should have been able to piece this together as a possible theory on my own and is sad that I had to ask. It just looked like a major goof to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jhazard]

At that point, the Saber didn't matter to me. I was completely taken out of the scene by the awful computer graphics. Luke looked terrible, I heard someone liken him to that info-mercial guy Billy Mays (?), and the setting was done so poorly that it looked like it could have been from matrix reloaded, I've seen video games with more impressive graphics. Did they really think that looked ok? The walkers in ESB looked better...

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

 

[Greenie]

Did they really think that looked ok? The walkers in ESB looked better...

Of course they looked better. They were real. :thumbsup

 

[mkstewartesq]

That al does make sense in explanation, but that sure didn’t come across well in the film. Kylo just looked satisfied to finally have Luke where he wanted him to fire upon, and then just enraged that he didn’t die and fixated on just killing Luke himself.

I’m glad to know this explanation of things, but as a Star Wars fan of 38 years I should have been able to piece this together as a possible theory on my own and is sad that I had to ask. It just looked like a major goof to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Of course, you're right. An explanation would have been easy and take almost no screen time, rather than forcing us to think it through ourselves to overcome an apparent "WTH?" moment.

But how about this - which just occurred to me? Kylo likely didn't know the saber had been destroyed.

Recall that he was struggling with Rey when it exploded - and he was knocked unconscious by the blast. While he was unconscious, Rey grabbed what was left of the saber and fled, and Kylo didn't awaken until after Hux came into the Throne room. So, from Kylo's perspective, there was just a boom and the next thing he knows, Rey's fled and the saber is nowhere to be found.

I think that makes the most sense as to why Kylo didn't wonder how Luke had a saber that had been destroyed. But, again, the point is more subtle than it needed to be.

M

 

[sztriki]

Of course, you're right. An explanation would have been easy and take almost no screen time, rather than forcing us to think it through ourselves to overcome an apparent "WTH?" moment.

But how about this - which just occurred to me? Kylo likely didn't know the saber had been destroyed.

Recall that he was struggling with Rey when it exploded - and he was knocked unconscious by the blast. While he was unconscious, Rey grabbed what was left of the saber and fled, and Kylo didn't awaken until after Hux came into the Throne room. So, from Kylo's perspective, there was just a boom and the next thing he knows, Rey's fled and the saber is nowhere to be found.

I think that makes the most sense as to why Kylo didn't wonder how Luke had a saber that had been destroyed. But, again, the point is more subtle than it needed to be.

M

That’s a fair assumption from the character’s point of view, but the Graflex and Luke looking like he just came from the space saloon totally destroyed any sense of mystery and twist fromam audience perspective. If he looked like he did all the way it would have been a bainand switch for the audience especially that his X-wing was shown, but the moment he appeared with dyed hair and beard I was like, oh he’s a ghost or projection.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

I think the reasoning behind the use of the graflex in the projection scene is simpler than some of these in-universe explanations (not that they’re bad.)

I think it was just a way for Rian to give a hint that something was not quite as it seemed for the viewers who noticed it. I felt something was wrong (in one way or another) as soon as I saw that blue blade the first time, and in the end I think that little “breadcrumb” along with a few others like Luke’s lack of footprints in the salt helped to give the”payoff” a bit more weight.

On my second viewing I spent the time after Luke reappeared looking for any other clues, and I think I can remember a few others, along with a couple that I’ve only been able to speculate about.

Those are: when Luke put the dice into Leia’s hand, did the look she gave him mean that she couldn’t actually “feel” the dice? Along with that, I think I remember reactions from 3PO or R2 that make me wonder if they were able to detect that he wasn’t really “there.”

 

[sztriki]

Along with that, I think I remember reactions from 3PO or R2 that make me wonder if they were able to detect that he wasn’t really “there.”

OMG, you’re absolutely right, I havent even thought about that! 3PO saw him coming in, greeted him as Master Luke and he winked at 3PO. How the heck did a droid detect a Force projection?

 

[Seth Skywalker]

OMG, you’re absolutely right, I havent even thought about that! 3PO saw him coming in, greeted him as Master Luke and he winked at 3PO. How the heck did a droid detect a Force projection?

You underestimate his power!

lol

 

[JPH]

Actually, I think this was intentional and easily explained.

Luke wanted to strike fear into Kylo and present himself as a formidable enemy – so he manifested himself as he would’ve been when Kylo last saw him, not the more aged (and broken) man he was “in real time”. To further rub salt in the wound, he appeared with the Graflex – which was meant to (a) demonstrate that Rey had been successful in her mission of returning it to him (thereby signalling that Kylo had failed in his quest to reach Luke first), and (b) rub a bit of salt in Kylo’s ego/wounds, as Luke no doubt suspected that Kylo felt that lightsaber to be his rightful property and so seeing Luke with it would be a further irritant.

That being said, Luke had no way of knowing that the lightsaber had been destroyed after Rey left him (there’s nothing in canon I am aware of that indicates that a Jedi can sense the presence of a lightsaber in the force) – so he manifested with it, ignorant that the detail "didn't fit" anymore.

M

Hmmm, Rey and Kylo are fighting over a lightsaber, there is an explosion that came from right where the lightsaber was.

Couldnt have been that lightsaber....right? Everything else is still there.

Remember in canon when jedis had to find a crystal and spend time imbueing it with the force? Sith EDIT used synthetic stones. I know, inconvenient canon, disregard. Thanks, Rian!

So, the lightsaber that called to Rey, that shook like a baboon with hot sauce poured on its bald rear now isnt sensed? The lightsaber Rey out forcepulled Kylo isnt sensed by jedi?!?!? Are you kidding me?!?!?! The light saber *IS* a jedi's weapon.

Seriously? Better off saying EDIT Luke ForceFixed it. Because puting the word "Force" infront of anything works for jedi and sith, like putting "bat" infront of a word for Batman.

When Luke survived the overwhelming laser fire, time to call bs.

 

[Nitz146]

Actually, I think this was intentional and easily explained.

Luke wanted to strike fear into Kylo and present himself as a formidable enemy – so he manifested himself as he would’ve been when Kylo last saw him, not the more aged (and broken) man he was “in real time”. To further rub salt in the wound, he appeared with the Graflex – which was meant to (a) demonstrate that Rey had been successful in her mission of returning it to him (thereby signalling that Kylo had failed in his quest to reach Luke first), and (b) rub a bit of salt in Kylo’s ego/wounds, as Luke no doubt suspected that Kylo felt that lightsaber to be his rightful property and so seeing Luke with it would be a further irritant.

That being said, Luke had no way of knowing that the lightsaber had been destroyed after Rey left him (there’s nothing in canon I am aware of that indicates that a Jedi can sense the presence of a lightsaber in the force) – so he manifested with it, ignorant that the detail "didn't fit" anymore. As far as why Kylo didn’t pick up on this glitch in details – I can only assume that his rage at seeing Luke kept him from noticing. Or he assumed that Luke built another saber like his father’s in the intervening time. Doesn’t matter which.

M

Im still not totally getting why Luke wanted to further anger Kylo at this point. Getting him angry should have been making him stronger. As was said in RotS:
Palpatine (to Anakin): I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger.

 

[egosheep]

A recent thought that I had that I don't know if anyone already discussed....

Near the end of TFA, a concerned Snoke tells Hux to bring Kylo Ren to him and that it is time to complete his training.

This is covered in TLJ. Snoke turns "completing your training" into "kill Rey for me". Even though in TFA it's heavily implied that he would want Rey alive to try to turn her. It sucks but that's how it was handled.

Luke wanted to strike fear into Kylo and present himself as a formidable enemy – so he manifested himself as he would’ve been when Kylo last saw him, not the more aged (and broken) man he was “in real time”. To further rub salt in the wound, he appeared with the Graflex – which was meant to (a) demonstrate that Rey had been successful in her mission of returning it to him (thereby signalling that Kylo had failed in his quest to reach Luke first), and (b) rub a bit of salt in Kylo’s ego/wounds, as Luke no doubt suspected that Kylo felt that lightsaber to be his rightful property and so seeing Luke with it would be a further irritant.

That being said, Luke had no way of knowing that the lightsaber had been destroyed after Rey left him (there’s nothing in canon I am aware of that indicates that a Jedi can sense the presence of a lightsaber in the force) – so he manifested with it, ignorant that the detail "didn't fit" anymore. As far as why Kylo didn’t pick up on this glitch in details – I can only assume that his rage at seeing Luke kept him from noticing. Or he assumed that Luke built another saber like his father’s in the intervening time. Doesn’t matter which.

A few things here. If Luke wanted to anger Kylo, why not use the saber that he associated with his pivotal turn to the dark side in the hut? How would Kylo even know what Anakin's saber even looked like in the first place, and how would Luke know that he coveted it? Kylo's blind rage didn't stop him from recognizing the saber when Finn lit it up, but he doesn't recognize it here?

The bottom line is, if Luke's goal was to sacrifice his life to fool Kylo into believing he was actually there, then he should have projected a lightsaber that he knew the location of, and he should have appeared as if time had passed, not with a badly dyed beard. For all Luke knew, Kylo could have had that saber hanging on his belt, and the whole jig would be up.

 

[mkstewartesq]

A few things here. If Luke wanted to anger Kylo, why not use the saber that he associated with his pivotal turn to the dark side in the hut?

Im still not totally getting why Luke wanted to further anger Kylo at this point. Getting him angry should have been making him stronger. As was said in RotS:
Palpatine (to Anakin): I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger.

To both: I was speaking too loosely and imprecisely to the extent I used the concept or term "anger". I don't think Luke want to "anger" Kylo per se - rather, as Luke's whole goal was to merely stall for time so that the remaining Resistance could make its escape, I think he was just trying to distract Kylo and to occupy his whole head-space for a few moments. Looking more young and powerful - i.e., not as dissolute and aged as Luke had actually become - was toward that goal, as was, perhaps, using a saber that Kylo already viewed as "his" property. In effect, a psyche-out tactic to occupy Kylo fully for a few crucial moments. EDIT TO ADD - in effect, Luke was going for maximum effect with Kylo: "I'm your worst nightmare. I'm back, I'm in good shape, I've grown so powerful as to be nearly invincible, and, hey, I've got something you want but you and I both know is rightfully mine."

I don't see any reason to construe Kylo's silence on the saber as indicating that he did not recognize it. When Kylo spoke up to Finn, he was talking to a person who not only may not have known the history of the saber, but has no right to it. While Kylo may be the ultimate "heir" to the saber in his mind, like any heirloom, it really only becomes "his" when passed on by the previous owner - and Kylo knows that, as between him and Luke, Luke is still the rightful owner of the saber.

So, no need to yell any histrionic "that's mine!' First, because it isn't truly his, yet - but, it Kylo's mind, it will be once he kills Luke. Second, Kylo kind of had more important beefs to vent at Luke about at that particular moment - namely their past - and not a whole ;lot of time to talk about it, so . .. priorities. When Obi-Wan met Vader on the DS, they didn't engage in small talk about lightsabers - "hey, I see you got a new saber"; "yeah, because you stole mine while I was flaming up on the side of a lava pit, thanks for that".

M

 

[sztriki]

I don't see any reason to construe Kylo's silence on the saber as indicating that he did not recognize it. When Kylo spoke up to Finn, he was talking to a person who not only may have known the history of the saber, but has no right to it. While Kylo may be the ultimate "heir" to the saber in his mind, like any heirloom, it really only becomes "his" when passed on by the previous owner - and Kylo knows that, as between him and Luke, Luke is still the rightful owner of the saber.

So, no need to yell any histrionic "that's mine!' First, because it isn't truly his, yet - but, it Kylo's mind, it will be once he kills Luke. Second, Kylo kind of had more important beefs to vent at Luke about at that particular moment - namely their past - and not a whole ;lot of time to talk about it, so . .. priorities. When Obi-Wan met Vader on the DS, they didn't engage in small talk about lightsabers - "hey, I see you got a new saber"; "yeah, because you stole mine while I was flaming up on the side of a lava pit, thanks for that".

M

Because film is a visual medium. If Rian wanted to tell part of the story with Luke looking fresh and lively wielding the Graflex then he should have had at least SOME sort of reaction from Kylo to pay it off instead of explaining it later on Twitter.
The Vader-Obi analogy doesn't work coz 1. the background was not worked out at all, 2. there was no story to tell at that point. Simply the two meeting was the story. It was Rian's idea to turn the lightsaber and the hair colour into a story but he turned it to one that does not really make sense in the film alone because he forgot to add a line, a reaction shot, a facial expression or anything to pay it off. And no, I don't want my dinner sliced and chewed for me, I don't need in my face explanation about everything but there was ZERO reaction from Kylo regarding Luke's look and lightsaber. Here's an easy fix:
Luke: I failed you Ben. I'm sorry.
Kylo: I'm sure you are! The Resistance is dead. The war is over. And when I kill you...I will have killed the last Jedi and finally taken the lightsaber that should belong to me!

Side-note, wasn't the most important bit of Kylo's arc in this movie is that he smashed his helmet in order to step out of the Darth Vader-wannabe role? I thought that was the reason why he was so obsessed with Anakin's lightsaber in TFA.