Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Than why can't we inject people with more midi-chlorians?

That was one of the first things I thought of after I watched Ep. I. Can Jedi increase his abilities/power with a midi-chlorian injection and/or can you simply make Jedi with a similar injection? What happens if a pregnant women undergoes a regular midi-chlorian injection regimen, will it guraantee that her baby will be born Force sensitive even if she isn't?
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

That was one of the first things I thought of after I watched Ep. I. Can Jedi increase his abilities/power with a midi-chlorian injection and/or can you simply make Jedi with a similar injection? What happens if a pregnant women undergoes a regular midi-chlorian injection regimen, will it guraantee that her baby will be born Force sensitive even if she isn't?
only in the case of spontaneous pregnancy, like anakins mom! :)
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

All these questions and others, I'm sure, can be answered through common sense according to the SW universe.

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1. I assume you are referring to Jedi and not regular folk, since regular folk don't feel them at all. Force-sensitives don't need to train to feel them, they can feel them whether they are aware of it or not. They just need to be trained to "hear" them and to use the Force through them.

2 & 3. Probably possible if you can isolate them from an entire cell and duplicate them (or clone them) but it doesn't even occur to the jedi because they don't generally quest for more, otherwise they would be dark Jedi or sith. And in one of the EU books set a few months to a year after ROTS, there is one substance out there that can increase a Force-users power. Doesn't really say whether or not midi-chlorians are involved though.

4. They are a natural organism similar to mitochondria in this galaxy's life-forms. Qui-Gon comes right out and says that.

Was the introduction of midi-chlorians in Star Wars necessary? Absolutely not. But they certainly were not intended to, nor did they, diminish the mystical aspect of the Force as many claim they do.

Well, first, you can TRY to answer these questions, but you're really just making crap up based on....nothing. Guesswork, really. That's not a criticism of you, mind you. It's a criticism of the midichlorian concept. As soon as you introduce it, you have to keep explaining stuff. And they DO demystify things because they provide a more concrete answer than "It's magic," basically.

Consider your answers to my questions, and then realize that they only prompt further questions. Example: If you can inject someone with midichlorians, and they're living organisms, what exactly lets you lift a rock or a spaceship, considering they DON'T have living organisms in them? Is the force still this mystical energy field and the midichlorians just let you manipulate it if you have a high enough concentration of them? Or do they create the Force? How do they function in a person's body? If it's all some biological process, then what exactly are the midichlorians acting upon when a Jedi moves stuff around in the air? In the end, you don't know because it was never explained....but we wouldn't even be going down this path at all if the answer was still just "It's a mystical energy field, and those strong in the Force can manipulate it. It's magic."

Look at the Harry Potter series. There's no attempt to explain through pseudo-science why wizards can use magic but muggles can't. It's not like wizards can do all of this stuff because they have plotzoflodriae in their spinal fluid. It's just magic. Some folks can do it, some folks can't. Some folks are stronger at it than others. Why? Who knows. It's magic. Bam. Done. Next question.

And in the end, all the midichlorian thing does is delay the point at which you say "Who knows. It's magic." It adds nothing, but takes away from the mystical side of things by trying to ground it in scientific-y explanations.

And for what? Why was it even included? Nobody was wondering about it. It doesn't add anything to the story. So why's it there? The answer is that George had a stupid idea and decided to stick it in the film, and nobody told him "George, that's a really stupid idea. You don't need to explain this. You did that in the last few movies." If it was supposed to be an example of the hubris of the Jedi, and something they later revealed to be a wrong understanding, the they should've addressed it later. "We were so wrong about the midichlorian thing...look at what's become of us..." But they don't do that. They just toss this idea out there -- once, in six separate films -- and then NEVER SPEAK OF IT AGAIN.

I agree, I never once had any question on what the source of a Force user's power was or why Yoda was more powerful in the ways of the Force than Luke was. It would have been one thing if it had been introduced to use with a bit of scientific background but since it was introduced to us as sort of a mystical power adding a scientific explanation behind it was really unnecessary and sort of ruined things. If Lucas really wanted a quantifiable way of defining someone's sensitivity towards or power with the Force I'm sure that if he thought about it long and hard enough he could have come up with some sort of simple field test involving the candidate/student doing something simple with the Force or comparing him (in terms how much power is sensed) to a known Jedi or something along those lines.

Exactly. Like I said, you didn't even need to take it to a "field test." You can simply say that, because Jedi can sense each other, they can sense how strong someone is. It's all taken care of in the OT. Vader says "The force is strong with this one..." when he's chasing Luke in the trench run. He senses Obi-Wan's presence. There. Bam. Done. I sensed him. I sensed his power. The end. No blood tests required, no pseudo-science crap to answer unasked questions and raise new unanswered ones. The world and its rules are already well established and accepted because it's all couched in the unsaid statement of "It's magic."
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Exactly. Like I said, you didn't even need to take it to a "field test." You can simply say that, because Jedi can sense each other, they can sense how strong someone is. It's all taken care of in the OT. Vader says "The force is strong with this one..." when he's chasing Luke in the trench run. He senses Obi-Wan's presence. There. Bam. Done. I sensed him. I sensed his power. The end. No blood tests required, no pseudo-science crap to answer unasked questions and raise new unanswered ones. The world and its rules are already well established and accepted because it's all couched in the unsaid statement of "It's magic."

Agreed, although the 'field test' idea could be used if you absolutely (for whatever reason) had to make someone's power with Force something quantifiable yet still keep it at least somewhat mystic. Of course, like you said, the simplest way would be to simply say, "I can sense his power" and to clarify things a little Qui-gon could simply say that Anakin is one of the most powerful people that he's ever sensed, possibly rivaling members of the Jedi council, assuming that the council is made up of some of the most powerful Jedi in the order. I think that would establish that Anakin is something special and extraordinarily powerful, perhaps unusually so for someone so young.
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

If they were introduced in the OT as was intended, would you all have felt the same way about them as you do now?
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Agreed, although the 'field test' idea could be used if you absolutely (for whatever reason) had to make someone's power with Force something quantifiable yet still keep it at least somewhat mystic. Of course, like you said, the simplest way would be to simply say, "I can sense his power" and to clarify things a little Qui-gon could simply say that Anakin is one of the most powerful people that he's ever sensed, possibly rivaling members of the Jedi council, assuming that the council is made up of some of the most powerful Jedi in the order. I think that would establish that Anakin is something special and extraordinarily powerful, perhaps unusually so for someone so young.

Bingo. That's what i'm talking about. You just say "The Force is stronger in him than in anyone I've ever encountered, including Master Yoda. I've never sensed anything like it." There ya go. Done and done. It's mystical and he senses it (as established in the OT), and we simultaneously establish that Anakin's powerful. That's all you need. No midichlosiwhatsits required.
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

If they were introduced in the OT as was intended, would you all have felt the same way about them as you do now?
It's hard to say what my opinion would be if I had been given a different story 30 yrs ago, but they weren't in the story 30 yrs ago, so thats kind of a moot point. Lots of ideas were thrown around during the conception of the OT, that dosen't mean it was "intended" to be in the story. It likely means somebody had the sense to talk GL out of it at the time, although I'm not well versed in what George's intentions were, I know what the OT was when I saw it in the theater. (the ewoks had no eyelids! :lol)
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Than why can't we inject people with more midi-chlorians?

For the same reason people hate them. The Force decides who gets them and who doesn't. My guess is you either can't replicate them or if you do they don't work if the Force doesn't want you to have them.

I don't like them much, but I'm also not bashing my tv and screaming that Lucas raped me when they're mentioned. On a scale of Jar Jar to Han Solo, it's in the middle somewhere.
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't like them much, but I'm also not bashing my tv and screaming that Lucas raped me when they're mentioned. On a scale of Jar Jar to Han Solo, it's in the middle somewhere.

Hmmm... scale..... ranking... interesting.....

Might be interesting to have a topic ranking the Lucas atrocities according to heinousness. Wonder what would get the most votes? No unaltered blu rays available? Jarjar? The musical number in ROTJ?
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

From a writing standpoint, midichlorians only complicate the established rules of that universe, and like many have stated here, they only raise all kinds of questions that ultimately never got answered.

It also begs the question, why does Anakin need to be more powerful than Yoda? Why can't he just be powerful? Wouldn't it have worked better if the prophecy (which we really don't know anything about) was a SITH prophecy?

Here's a scenario that I thought could have worked better without completely disregarding all of the story elements Lucas created:

The whole idea of bringing the force back into balance should have been a Sith prophecy. Palpatine should have been a Jedi once and one of the few who voluntarily left the order. While there is nothing wrong with this, the Jedi resented his departure considering he was one of their most gifted students and quickly became very adept in his force abilities. Sadly he became involved in politics and his charisma allowed him to move to the highest rank of office. There in secret he was seduced by the dark side of the force and would eventually use that power to ultimately seize control of the galaxy and become Emperor. Sensing Anakin’s potential, and with the council limiting Anakin’s progression despite being proficient enough to pass every test that the Jedi council and the Clone Wars had given him, Palpatine takes Anakin under his wing. Knowing Anakin may have delusions of grandeur the Council tests Anakin to his limits to see what he is capable of, and it is here that he earns his reputation as a hero in the Clone Wars alongside his master Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Anakin welcomes the encouragement and begins having conflicting emotions between his friendship with Obi-Wan and Palpatine. In time Palpatine convinces Anakin that he is the Chosen one who will bring balance to the force. When Anakin turns and confronts Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he tells Obi-Wan that he is the Chosen one. Only then does Obi-Wan realize what Palpatine has done and warns Anakin that the prophecy that Palpatine has been teaching him is a Sith prophecy. Anakin will fulfill it by hunting down the remaining Jedi in service to the New Galactic Empire. (So in essence the prophecy doesn’t even have to be true, just as long as Anakin believes that he is the fulfillment of it, that’s all Palpatine needs to use the vulnerable young Jedi to his advantage.)


The story would have worked better (and fit into Lucas's idea of poetry) if Obi-Wan was like Luke (the straight laced do gooder who despite his inexperience has a courageous spirit) Padme was like Leia (the fiesty and tough as nails freedom fighter) and Anakin was like Han (the sarcastic hot shot pilot who has a heart of gold).

Think about that. If Anakin was more like Han Solo, would people have not LOVED him?
 
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Maybe "muddied the waters" isn't the right way, but I think it was a sort of jarring, unnecessary additional layer of info. You have to question why it was there. Was it just to explain stuff? Was it to accomplish something in the plot?

If it was just to explain "Why is this guy stronger in the Force than that guy?" it answers the question, but...it wasn't really a question people were seriously answering. Were people really sitting around agonizing for years over why Yoda was so strong in the force but Luke wasn't? I don't think so. And it also raises additional unnecessary questions that never would've been asked if they'd just kept it mystical. So, if it's based on a certain content of organisms in your blood stream...why do you need to train to feel it? How's that all work? Can you inject someone with extra midichlorians? Can you clone them? Where'd they come from?
Well stated, and right on the money in my opinion. By introducing the concept of midichlorians and then directly stating there is a correlation between their number within an individual and that individual's ability to use The Force, you've now limited every potential Force user's abilities. "That Padawan's pretty good; he could have been a Master one day if he only had a higher midichlorian count." Stupid, stupid, stupid.
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

This midi-chlorian argument is giving me a headache...shall we move on?

The story would have worked better (and fit into Lucas's idea of poetry) if Obi-Wan was like Luke (the straight laced do gooder who despite his inexperience has a courageous spirit) Padme was like Leia (the fiesty and tough as nails freedom fighter) and Anakin was like Han (the sarcastic hot shot pilot who has a heart of gold).

Think about that. If Anakin was more like Han Solo, would people have not LOVED him?

I like the prequels as they are, but even I gotta admit that would have been better.
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

: )

Yeah it has kind of derailed from the topic. NEW STAR WARS TRILOGY! I'm still in a bit of shock they're ACTUALLY going to be making 7, 8, and 9. Once Ep. III was released I figured that was the end of live action theatrical releases. And whether or not the new films are good, it will still be really fun to see a brand new film in the theater.
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

: )

Yeah it has kind of derailed from the topic. NEW STAR WARS TRILOGY! I'm still in a bit of shock they're ACTUALLY going to be making 7, 8, and 9. Once Ep. III was released I figured that was the end of live action theatrical releases. And whether or not the new films are good, it will still be really fun to see a brand new film in the theater.

At the very least it will give us something else to kvetch about besides the prequels.
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

: )

<<Once Ep. III was released I figured that was the end of live action theatrical releases. And whether or not the new films are good, it will still be really fun to see a brand new film in the theater.


Yep. I'm glad George can't keep his word! I'm hoping for the old-school feel this go around...
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't begrudge GL from telling the story he wanted to tell and I enjoyed the journey. I am also very excited that a new vision will guide these new films and I very much welcome that without feeling bitter about the past.
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I always view the midi-chlorian thing as you can replace 'midi-chlorian' with a word like 'water' or 'carbon' and it still works.

Meaning that ALL living things (people, plants, organic matter, etc) have midi-chlorian in them. The midi-chlorian choose to speak to some things, but not all.

So you can't inject midi-chlorian into someone or boost a Jedi's power, they already have it inside them. A measure of the count could be the stregnth of the midi-chlorian conversation, not actually how much midi-chlorian a person has.
 
Re: Star Wars Episode VII

It also begs the question, why does Anakin need to be more powerful than Yoda? Why can't he just be powerful? Wouldn't it have worked better if the prophecy (which we really don't know anything about) was a SITH prophecy?

What I wonder about is let's say Anakin can be more powerful than Yoda. Yoda has studied for over 900 YEARS as a Jedi. How can Anakin ever possibly learn more to be more powerful than Yoda?! I guess maybe he could jump higher or use the Force for a longer period without tiring.
 
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