Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

[Bryancd]

You can try and belittle my argument by suggesting a 10 year old "came around" to my thinking. That 10 year old came up with that on his own and probably has more in common with the way of thinking of the masses... mostly because that's what 5 of these movies suggested (Episode 2-6).

I don't dispute Rebels changed this (I'm sure because of the John Boyega's character). Doesn't mean I think it's a good idea and that it's retcon.

I don't see anywhere in the SW flicks where it says just how big their galaxy, the Empire or its armies are. No where in the flicks is conscription suggested. In fact, I think Luke wanting to leave the Lars farm to go to the academy suggests (to me, at least) that this was to become an officer... which again, might suggest non-clones are officers. Let's also note that Luke wasn't forced into service and we don't see anything other than humanoid's (at least in size and shape) in the Imperial army.

I've backed up reasoning already in this thread (I could go back and link to it and copy/paste if you'd like). There are plenty of reasons that Stormtrooper could (and should?) be clones. I really haven't heard one compelling argument against this.

Good of grief, how did this come up again? For the final time I hope, the flaw in your argument JD is when you say :

"That 10 year old came up with that on his own and probably has more in common with the way of thinking of the masses... mostly because that's what 5 of these movies suggested (Episode 2-6)."

You make a huge assumption based on what you perceived the films suggested but never in anyway said or made clear. Any watching of the OT has zero discussion about who ST are. We do see them wearing the same armor, but they are of different heights and voices, and in the tractor beam deactivation scene, they have apparently distinct personalities and do not have shared experiences. Everything in ANH portrays ST as distinct individuals. I never once thought they were clones, none of my fellow 9 year old friends thought they were clones. A few thought they might be robots.

 

[JD]

Good of grief, how did this come up again? For the final time I hope, the flaw in your argument JD is when you say :

"That 10 year old came up with that on his own and probably has more in common with the way of thinking of the masses... mostly because that's what 5 of these movies suggested (Episode 2-6)."

You make a huge assumption based on what you perceived the films suggested but never in anyway said or made clear. Any watching of the OT has zero discussion about who ST are. We do see them wearing the same armor, but they are of different heights and voices, and in the tractor beam deactivation scene, they have apparently distinct personalities and do not have shared experiences. Everything in ANH portrays ST as distinct individuals. I never once thought they were clones, none of my fellow 9 year old friends thought they were clones. A few thought they might be robots.

Where does it say Jango was the only clone source? Obviously it doesn't say anywhere during the PT or OT how the Emperor sustained his army. We also don't know that the varying heights weren't unintentional - Lucas not changing the voice, well - yes that's either an oversight or the best defense of multiple sources (either different clones or clones/human). The clones appeared to have unique personalities in RotS judging by their armor modifications.

You make huge assumptions on Lucas' original thinking and what is most likely being retconned to make this new movie happen. You don't do similar armor, the same type of military force and you don't include "the head bump" if they weren't meant to be descendants of Jango

....also, after getting a few odd looks, the one guy I'm at work with today that "gets" Star Wars on some level, also thought the Stormtroopers were Clones. ("Well that's just stupid" is the reply I got after a brief explanation).

The simple fact is I think Stormtroopers were meant to be clones - I've made what I feel, is a strong case to back that up - and that case is throughout this thread. Feel free to disagree - but the best argument I've read here is that they didn't change the troopers voices in ANH. I think it's painfully obvious.

Are Stormtroopers now not clones? Apparently.... And apparently I'm not going to change your minds or vise versa. (Although Bryancd did relent in PM: "I agree was GL's original intent in the films.").

Now can we talk about real issues? Like Daisy Ridley or that new saber?

(I apologize for formatting/spelling/grammar - I'm at work today and doing this on the iPad and it's a real PITA).

- - - Updated - - -

Well the iPad really did screw this up.

 

[joberg]

Never saw other movies debated, dissected, put under an electronic microscope like the StarWars Saga.:rolleyes...

 

[astroboy]

Never in my life did I assume that stormtroopers were clones

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I'm still going with Lucas saying in the OT a small amount of Stormtroopers were clones. I do remember as a kid talking about the Stormtroopers being clones because Obi Wan talks about being in the Clone Wars. The Empire destroyed the Jedi so they probably did that with cloned Stormtroopers.

 

[batguy]

If Obi-Wan had referred to "the nuclear wars" then its probably safe to assume that those wars featured more nukes than other wars. I take the "clone wars" description to suggest that factor was unique in those wars.

If all the STs were supposed to be cloned then it stands to reason that GL would have picked half a dozen extras to be STs that were very close to the same size, and also made sure they all had the same voice dub. In the late 1970s he still cared enough about the details of his SW movies to do stuff like that. Instead we hear different voices, we see different sizes, the troopers stand around talking about mundane stuff like real people who weren't raised in factories, etc.

I think if GL had intended the STs to be clones then we would know about it. He wasn't originally that concerned about keeping the SW universe's past a secret in 1977 like he later became. It would have taken about 3-5 seconds of dialogue from one of the characters to clarify that the STs were cloned. That idea was novel enough at the time that GL probably would have made it clear if he was thinking it.

 

[JD]

In the most recent issue of Star Wars insider, the question of why the troopers all have different voices when they were all cloned from Jango is asked. The response goes into the usual "they didn't know they were going to be clones in the 70s" answer, and then says the interesting thing:

"However, there is also an in-universe explanation, provided by none other than George Lucas himself. During the productions of Episode III, Lucas told crewmembers that the stormtroopers seen in Episode IV are made from multiple sources. That is, they're not all Jango clones. By that time in the saga, other clone hosts have been selected.

Lucas intimated that the selection proces has become more political than strategic in some cases - a highly placed officer's cousin might be selected over a more capable specimen, for example. The politicization results in less-than-ideal candidates, which could explain some of the embarrasing marksmanship witnessed in the original trilogy."

from the the killer movies site... Obviously not from the movies and no issue # or anything.

and....

It doesn't matter. All stormtroopers are clones. Proof? Check out this link:

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jsp?forum=18&thread=65998

Go to number 3. Never mind, i'll paste it:

George Lucas says in Starlog mag:"Boba had a connection to stormtroopers. I sort of built him out of the stormtroopers, and I knew stormstroopers were clones."

And this: "A magazine called The World of Star Wars: a Compendium of Fact and Fantasy from Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back (copyright 1981, with the official Lucasfilm Ltd. mark), had an article about stormtroopers as clones: "Origin. The creation of an Imperial Stormtrooper. A cloned man is one of a group of genetically identical humans, an assembly line product. He is a thinking man, but he serves a specific purpose and no other." A link to a scan of the article can be found here <http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/image.cgi?Image=episode2/newspics/1981clones2.jpg>. This, in and of itself, is not clinching evidence (form your own conclusions), seeing as how it was published in 1981, but it is an official publication from Lucasfilm, and corresponds to a lot of what what we've seen in the movies."

And then this: "The clonetrooper/stormtrooper relationship has been confirmed. From the Databank:

"The titular clone troopers of Episode II were designed to strongly hint at their eventual evolution into the Empire's stormtrooper ranks."

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

Can we just have a separate thread, maybe titled-'ORIGINAL TRILOGY STORMTROOPERS...CLONES or CONSCRIPTS ?'

That way we can discuss the new film without the same old tired, rehashed, argument/debate/'Is not' 'is too' back & forth.

This isn't a personal attack. It isn't directed toward anyone in particular. If you feel like it is, you're wrong.

I just think that this was something to be discussed in this particular thread, up until the teaser release. As of NOW, we have all seen Boyega as a Stormtrooper. He is obviously NOT a clone of Jango. In TFA, Troopers are not all clones, so as far as film discussion for this film is concerned, it's a moot point.

As ridiculous as the 'spoiler tag or not' RETCON of the thread has been, this same old thing is (for me, not speaking for everyone) dragging down the discussion of the movie.

 

[Bryancd]

Yes, I do agree GL likely had that in mind in 1977 but mare no effort to put it on screen due to budgetary constraints. So the ship sailed in 1977.

 

[kegas76]

Can we just have a separate thread, maybe titled-'ORIGINAL TRILOGY STORMTROOPERS...CLONES or CONSCRIPTS ?'

That way we can discuss the new film without the same old tired, rehashed, argument/debate/'Is not' 'is too' back & forth.

This isn't a personal attack. It isn't directed toward anyone in particular. If you feel like it is, you're wrong.

I just think that this was something to be discussed in this particular thread, up until the teaser release. As of NOW, we have all seen Boyega as a Stormtrooper. He is obviously NOT a clone of Jango. In TFA, Troopers are not all clones, so as far as film discussion for this film is concerned, it's a moot point.

As ridiculous as the 'spoiler tag or not' RETCON of the thread has been, this same old thing is (for me, not speaking for everyone) dragging down the discussion of the movie.

The scary thing is that if they are still clones of a select few then there are probably a couple thousand Boyegas out there that might lose their will to fight and may possibly be force sensitive depending on how the storyline goes (I haven't read any spoilers on the character so that's just a coin toss). What a mess that would be, Jedi clones!

 

[Father]

From Wookiepedia

"Although the stormtroopers of the 501st Legion proved their loyalty to the Galactic Empire once again, the circumstances surrounding the battle convinced Emperor Palpatine that a clone army, composed entirely of clones based on one genetic source, was too susceptible to corruption. From that point on, it was decided that new clone stormtroopers would be created from various templates;[9] the Empire even resorted to enlisting regular Humans into the Stormtrooper Corps.[7] Though the 501st Legion remained composed purely of Jango Fett's progeny for the time being, the rest of the Imperial Army became increasingly diverse through an ever-growing pool of enlisted troopers and alternative source clones."

 

[seelsa73]

From Wookiepedia

"Although the stormtroopers of the 501st Legion proved their loyalty to the Galactic Empire once again, the circumstances surrounding the battle convinced Emperor Palpatine that a clone army, composed entirely of clones based on one genetic source, was too susceptible to corruption. From that point on, it was decided that new clone stormtroopers would be created from various templates;[9] the Empire even resorted to enlisting regular Humans into the Stormtrooper Corps.[7] Though the 501st Legion remained composed purely of Jango Fett's progeny for the time being, the rest of the Imperial Army became increasingly diverse through an ever-growing pool of enlisted troopers and alternative source clones."

One word...Legends.

 

[Father]

One word...Legends.

Ok... then another word... Canon

"As time passed, the clones began degenerating in ability and were replaced by non-clones who either volunteered or were conscripted by the Empire."

Better?

 

[Guy Cowen]

I think its time this clone debate went away, start a new thread guys its just fluff now thats getting everywhere, its actually spoiling a good thread?

There been no news for a while and I understand you need to fill your minds with stuff but please move along...move along these aren't the droids we care about !!!!!

 

[crabra comander]

I can tell you one thing for sure...

That black dude ain't a clone! *ducks and runs away*

 

[Treadwell]

Although the scene was deleted, Biggs tells Luke "I'm not going to wait for the Empire to draft me into service." Why would there be a draft if they could just use clones?

 

[Zombie_61]

...The troopers still have different voices...

Not in the original theatrical release of Star Wars in 1977 they didn't. I recall seeing it for the first time and wondering why all of the Stormtroopers had the same voice. When I later read they were supposed to be clones I thought, "Okay, now it makes sense." But that was the only thing in any of the Original Trilogy movies that suggested the Stormtroopers might be somehow related or biologically connected. So, by way of explaining it away (and before ol' Georgie boy started tinkering with the O.T. movies) I like to think there were still some clones in service in Star Wars, but that most (if not all) of them were no longer in service by The Empire Strikes Back; you'se guys can come up with your own explanations.

 

[Riceball]

Although the scene was deleted, Biggs tells Luke "I'm not going to wait for the Empire to draft me into service." Why would there be a draft if they could just use clones?

You're assuming he means into the Stormtrooper corps, I always took it to mean into general military service. In the comics there's a layer scene where Biggs tells Luke that he and some friends made contact with some Rebels and were going to jump ship the first chance they got, this strongly suggests that he was going to serve as part of the Imperial Navy since ground troops say they're going to desert while sailors say jump ship. Besides, if Biggs had gone to the Academy to be a Stormtrooper why would the Rebels then put him an X-Wing instead of handing him a blaster rifle and put him charge of a grunt platoon?

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 

[Father]

I can tell you one thing for sure...
That black dude ain't a clone! *ducks and runs away*

I need to review the code of conduct again before I can safely reply to this one...
<5 minutes later> Yes. I believe you are correct. He does not look like he is a clone. </majorly racist humor suppressed>

 

[Kyuzo]

When I first saw Star Wars when I was nine, we had this discussion if the stormtroopers was robots or humans in armor. So I'm going with robots. It may not be canon now, but it will be when they have that revelation scene with Boyega explaining how he was sent on the mission to ensure they brought home Exar Kun safely from Yavin 4, "all clone crew are expandable".