Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)
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JD
Master Member
Definitely wasn't obvious to me at first. Subsequent viewings were a little more apparent - but, at that point I was paying much closer attention to detail.
Re: Mary sue:
In some scenes, yes they did advance Rey too quickly. People mention Luke, but he was already an accomplished pilot. It's mentioned more than once, and even given away flat out that this is the guy, if anyone, who will make the shot.
But through the whole first movie we barely see glimpses that this guy might, one day, be able to control it without hand holding.
But much more than that, it's the tendency in this film to go for extremes with Rey... She isn't given much middle ground. She was a badass, but then she got spooked and ran (a huge pet peeve of mine... movies always do that and it's never believable... I'm looking at you X men... No one ever says "no I don't want super powers, leave me alone"... That's crap... We all know every one would say "sweet, where do learn how to choke people with my mind?"). But then she gets captured... And being confronted by a bad guy makes her not scared anymore... Back to being badass!
But I didn't mind that. For me, Star Wars is a fairy tale. The running away annoyed me yes, but her being badass was kinda cool. I really don't need that part to be more believable, although I would like less up and down. I say just let her be a badass. No more emo "but I don't want super powers" Bs.
So for me... Honestly I'd actuality almost rather MORE Mary sue, less extreme up and down.
The one moment of hers that's still hard for me is the fight. The pause is too long and it makes it seem like she was losing, until Kylo reminds her that the force is a thing, then shes like "oh yeah! I can totally swing this weapon I'm holding back and forth! Why didn't I try that sooner?"
Should've been a shorter pause... Just let her get pissed and fight harder. Same outcome, but would've been smoother. Besides, there's precedent for that in earlier films.
Also someone again mentioned Leia ignoring Chewie to hug girl she never met before... Yeah... That was a crap moment. It was like "is Leia watching this movie with us? How does she even know that Rey is the lead?"
In some scenes, yes they did advance Rey too quickly. People mention Luke, but he was already an accomplished pilot. It's mentioned more than once, and even given away flat out that this is the guy, if anyone, who will make the shot.
But through the whole first movie we barely see glimpses that this guy might, one day, be able to control it without hand holding.
But much more than that, it's the tendency in this film to go for extremes with Rey... She isn't given much middle ground. She was a badass, but then she got spooked and ran (a huge pet peeve of mine... movies always do that and it's never believable... I'm looking at you X men... No one ever says "no I don't want super powers, leave me alone"... That's crap... We all know every one would say "sweet, where do learn how to choke people with my mind?"). But then she gets captured... And being confronted by a bad guy makes her not scared anymore... Back to being badass!
But I didn't mind that. For me, Star Wars is a fairy tale. The running away annoyed me yes, but her being badass was kinda cool. I really don't need that part to be more believable, although I would like less up and down. I say just let her be a badass. No more emo "but I don't want super powers" Bs.
So for me... Honestly I'd actuality almost rather MORE Mary sue, less extreme up and down.
The one moment of hers that's still hard for me is the fight. The pause is too long and it makes it seem like she was losing, until Kylo reminds her that the force is a thing, then shes like "oh yeah! I can totally swing this weapon I'm holding back and forth! Why didn't I try that sooner?"
Should've been a shorter pause... Just let her get pissed and fight harder. Same outcome, but would've been smoother. Besides, there's precedent for that in earlier films.
Also someone again mentioned Leia ignoring Chewie to hug girl she never met before... Yeah... That was a crap moment. It was like "is Leia watching this movie with us? How does she even know that Rey is the lead?"
JD
Master Member
Luke talked about being a pilot - we never saw it until he was in an X-Wing, up until that point - all we saw from him was driving a landspeeder.
Rey also talked about being a pilot - we never saw it until she was in the Falcon, up until that point - all we saw from her was driving a speeder.
I don't think Rey ran because she didn't want powers - I felt she didn't want to stop believing her family was coming back for her on Jakku. She said she needed to get back Jakku - that was her goal, to get back there and to continue to wait for her family. The Force tricks were just another potential hurdle in her getting back home. That doesn't make her less a (ahem) badass.
What you do leave out, is how did she know about the good ol' Jedi mind trick? While not totally inconceivable - it's a stretch that young lady stranded on Jakku for many years would have info about that.
Reminded me a bit of Luke in his X-Wing with Ben telling him to "Use the force, Luke - let go" and Luke switching off his targeting computer. To me it was the same idea - but, we no force voices.
Obi wan also comments on it, when he's telling him about Anakin "I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself". Now some of that could be blowing smoke. But we know he's at least been at the controls before. but more than that, when he mentions shooting womp rats we're clearly meant to think that this kids got some flying skills, as an audience.
possibly. In any case, the running is not really a plot hole anyway, just hit my own personal pet peeve. It makes me want to kick the screen in when movie characters say no to that type of thing.
it didn't bother me. You're not wrong, it just didn't bother me. I don't know why, but I'm glad. My suspension of disbelief kicked in there and covered it for me I guess.
plausible, but that one DID bother me. Maybe my suspension of disbelief was tired from covering for the mind trick. Who knows? Equally possible was that I was just still pissed off that the Han Solo spoiler turned out to be true and that I have to live on this world with people like the ******* who felt the need to tell me that, so I had less patience at that point.
annanake
Sr Member
I posted earlier I watched close when i wastched again last night because it bothered me where it went he has it in hand when he returns from that ship and when Maz gives him the light saber you see a sling over his shoulder presumably still the blaster then the very next scene he tells Maz " I need a weapon "
And the strap is gone someone earlier said they had a cut scene where they dig out of rubble so it probably disappeared in editing.
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annanake
Sr Member
Don't know why we bother to discuss anything then you already know everything about all the next movies apparently !
The only prediction I personally remember of yours is when I said HAN would die and Luke should be using the dark side .
You told me to come back and apologize when I was wrong .
Han is dead
And we no nothing of Luke yet .
As far as your other predictions I give you the benefit of the doubt that you nailed everything else!
My point is you always seem to post opinions about the future movies as FACTS .
And i Agree with everything you said above but this movie is over . I am talking EP.VIII and I am saying in my OPINION Poe will be the next Han Solo type character not Finn I think they cut Rey and Poe meeting out of the movie intentionally
( they meet in the book) so everyone will expect Finn and Ray to be a couple . again opinion . I'm pretty sure we have had this conversation before. With your
"Snoke is a NEW character"
statement of fact.
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annanake
Sr Member
I think she ran because she just heard and seen a lot of crazy things a door open by itself then a bunch of death by Kylo's hands then her meeting him alone in the dark cold woods and the last being a voice telling her " this is your first step"
Personally I would crap my pants and fall back in it.
On her mind trick she had heard rumors of the Jedi when Han told her that " its real, all of it" we don't know what specific rumors she heard about them do we.
She probably spent the hour before that trying to teleport or something also she saw Kylo hold her arm against her will and then knock her out with his mind so she had an inkling about mind powers at the least!
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Yeah that does suck. And the production art looked so good for them. Did you notice them walking around in a couple of really distant shots or just the shot when Hux gives his speech and Fire the weapon?
Ben
Solo4114
Master Member
Or it's that they acknowledge that the films share a lot of commonality with each other, but also do some different things. Although, in some cases, it really does boil down to "I know it was very similar to the previous films. I don't care. That didn't diminish my sense of having been entertained."
First time I saw it, it took me about, oh, 5 seconds before the flicker to realize what the hell was going on. I was like "Whoa...what the-- oh. He's a hologram. I get it now. That makes sense, given that the Emperor used to just do that as a big glowy head."
So, two things.
First, I think the "I'm running away from my powers" thing kinda makes sense if their introduction has suddenly made the world a much more confusing and dangerous place for the character. Like, you wake up one morning and realize that, not only can you shoot destructive beams of plasma from your palms, but that you can also sort of fly (although you're still figuring out how). On top of that, soon after, the government/an evil organization/other superpowered individuals want to come take you away from your life and train you/use you for their own ends/kill you. You might say "Screw this! I just want to go back to my normal life!"
I don't know about you, but I actually think Jessica Jones did a really good job with this and people not wanting to have their superpowers exposed to the world, for fear of both the responsibility that'd lay on them, the danger it'd put them and everyone they know into, and the loss of any sense of normalcy. Me, I like my normal life. I don't really want superpowers.
Second, on the subject of the "Mary Sue"/"competent character." I think the ultimate problem with this trope is that the character's powers are (1) apparently limitless, (2) appear entirely as needed for the situation, and (3) not effectively earned or explained.
The absolute worst examples of this are, like, 1950s Superman or Batman comics, where either of them has just the superpower/gadget-in-utility-belt or specialized knowledge to escape their dilemma, and yet they've never evinced any such ability in the past. Giant monster that shoots electricity and whose entire body is surrounded by a shield of lightning? No problem! Superman will just use his super-breath to create a field of insulation around his body! (Or whatever.) And boy, isn't it handy that Batman had his Polarity-reversing batarang in his utility belt today? "Golly, that sure was close!" "You got that right, old chum!" The Joker and Lex Luthor have used a mind-ray to brainwash Lois Lane and Robin into being axe-wielding lunatics? No problem! Batman's study of the ancient Nepalese art of Kong-Bava -- a mind-calming technique handed down by Siddharthic Monks for generations -- can save the day. Or Superman can just use his super-frequency-voice to reverse the mind-ray's waves! Phew! Another catastrophe averted! :rolleyes
Interpreted another way, the big objection is that the author is just pulling the solution out of their ass. In another sense, it turns the character almost into a walking deus ex machina. The problem with all of these tropes is that they completely destroy the dramatic stakes in the story. Nobody is ever in any real danger, because we know the character has unlimited, unearned power and the author will simply pull one out of his or her ass to solve whatever problem faces the character.
I don't see that being the case with Rey, though. I think the writers were making an attempt to indicate that she does indeed have great, untapped power. However, they also tried to lampshade that the source of that power is unknown, as are the limits of that power. It's a huge question mark and one that, I think, is intended to drive the drama for her character in the next film and likely beyond. I expect that the explanation for the source of Rey's power will also enlighten us as to just how far it goes, and whether there are any catches to that power or its ongoing use.
At any rate, I recognize that the pace of the film is such that the "Holy crap! How did I do that?!" reactions are almost "blink and you'll miss it." But I do think there was at least an attempt to make her not just be a "competent character" who's a master of everything as the situation requires.
JD
Master Member
Rey didn't have an Obi-Wan-type watching her from afar. I will agree there wasn't enough foreshadowing in really both cases.
I do think Rey's wanting to return to Jakku is pretty established by her statements to Finn and Han Solo. Maz telling her to leave her past, probably didn't sit too well with her either.
I wouldn't say it bothered me, either. Kylo's statement about her just discovering powers and that they're growing strong quickly helped smooth over what could be considered a plot hole.
I found it much easier to accept her taking it all in and letting the force in - than the Jedi mind trick. Both did share a similar type of moment - she had to relax and "let the Force in" in the detention area before the Jedi mind trick worked and in the forest, she also needed that kind of relax and let it in. We also had a weaker Kylo Ren - both mentally and physically injured - which may've made her seem a bit more powerful than she really was.
The book is still out on Rey. I think we still have a lot to learn about her - recent revelations that her parentage will factor into her development implies there's much about her that we don't know yet.
May 2017 can't get here quick enough.
kristen jones
Master Member
Hmmm... I didn't get a Star Wars vibe from GotG at all, personally.
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BWAHAHAHA! Good one there :thumbsup
Jaitea
Master Member
kristen jones
Master Member
Am I offended when "a man" says "My Dear"? No... not strictly speaking.
Am I offended when that man uses it in a way that comes off as condescending...absolutely.
Listen... I'm not a shrinking violet. And as such, I feel that I deserve at least the amount of respect one peer lends to another. You might have said "It isn't Sexism, it's Science" and left it at that. You felt compelled to throw in "My Dear" as a way of saying "I'm far smarter than you are, and you ought to go back into the kitchen and find something worthwhile to spend your energy on in there".
THAT is why Misogyny continues in the world... because some Men (and I do stress SOME) are either completely unaware of how they come off when they do this sort of thing, or they reckon we (as Women) are too dull to grasp the subtlety of what they are implying.
You ought to have stated it without the "My Dear" thrown in. That is a term of endearment... which is a privilege handed from one to the other when BOTH feel that a sufficient rapport exists between them that such is warranted. Not so, in this case.
kristen jones
Master Member
I, for one, am fascinated by our new characters.. and that includes Finn. I want to know sooo much more about him, and can't wait to see where the next adventure finds him. I did not expect to be taken with the newbies so quickly...that in itself shows that--for myself at least--TFA has done a good job of making me care about something new right off.
kristen jones
Master Member
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