Star Trek: Discovery (2017)

How are you watching Star Trek: Discovery?

  • Signed up for CBS All Access before watching the premiere

    Votes: 13 9.0%
  • Signed up for CBS All Access after watching the premiere

    Votes: 13 9.0%
  • Not signing up, but will watch if it's available for free

    Votes: 82 56.9%
  • On Netflix (Non-US viewer)

    Votes: 36 25.0%

  • Total voters
    144
Yeah... I've got no issues with fudging the Prime Directive.... Kirk & Co did it many a times....
I count once in TOS -- and that one was iffy ("Miri" -- if McCoy hadn't concocted that treatment and they let themselves die to preserve the Prime Directive, those kids would've ended up dying off as they hit puberty and there wouldn't have been any culture left on the planet to influence). All the rest of the Prime Directive issues in that series were Kirk & Co. going in to fix breaches of the Prime Directive by others -- or interference that predated it.
 
I count once in TOS -- and that one was iffy ("Miri" -- if McCoy hadn't concocted that treatment and they let themselves die to preserve the Prime Directive, those kids would've ended up dying off as they hit puberty and there wouldn't have been any culture left on the planet to influence). All the rest of the Prime Directive issues in that series were Kirk & Co. going in to fix breaches of the Prime Directive by others -- or interference that predated it.

The one I was specifically thinking of was "A Taste of Armageddon" where the planet was conducting a simulated war and sending their people to die because a computer calculated death numbers and where.

Then there was the one with the primitive inhabitants of a planet that worshiped a a machine that disguised itself as a god....
 
The one I was specifically thinking of was "A Taste of Armageddon" where the planet was conducting a simulated war and sending their people to die because a computer calculated death numbers and where.

Which, the Valiant had been there fifty years earlier, made first contact with the technological and spacefaring civilization they found there, were warned away (seemingly) inexplicably, then declared a casualty in the war between Eminiar and Vendikar. The damage had already been done. The Enterprise was similarly warned away, and Kirk wanted to respect that, but the Federation ambassador leading the mission overruled him to press forward. (There has long been a question, among fans, as to whether the Prime Directive is a Starfleet thing... or a Federation thing.) Yes, when Kirk ends up destroying the computers on Eminiar that handle their end of the simulated war, that drastically alters things for both planets, but that was merely, by that point, compounding interference others had already committed.

Then there was the one with the primitive inhabitants of a planet that worshiped a a machine that disguised itself as a god....

And the argument there was that they obviously hadn't built it, so their society had already been interfered with by parties unknown, and destroying the Vaal computer freed them to resume natural development (philosophical arguments about how wherever they go from there as a species, it won't be where they might have gone pre-Vaal, but anyway...).
 
To be fair, using that logic, then the Disco crew were treading the same line as Kirk... Starfleet has had first contact with the 'superior' warp capable race on the planet and that race was arguably interfering with the natural progression of the lesser species...

Yeah, yeah I know.. internal affairs... just saying ;)
 
To be fair, using that logic, then the Disco crew were treading the same line as Kirk... Starfleet has had first contact with the 'superior' warp capable race on the planet and that race was arguably interfering with the natural progression of the lesser species...

Yeah, yeah I know.. internal affairs... just saying ;)
Pretty much. Why this is, for me, about the least egregious storytelling crime the show has committed so far.
 
I'm just perplexed that they actually accelerated the evolution of an entire species and putting them through pain of the Vaharai without their consent, ultimately changing the balance and race relations of the planet, and not necessarily in a good way. It may just result in a Kelpien-Ba'ul war that lasts for centuries. It's like the crew didn't even consider the long term effects of their actions.

On another note, mystery solved? :p
52666683_2179916118732404_2427548621307117568_n.jpg
 
Wouldn't surprise me at all that its Tilly time/space hopping around in some exo-suit in the last episode to neatly wrap everything up.

Didn't Doctor Who do the same thing with Matt Smith and Amy?
 
I'm just perplexed that they actually accelerated the evolution of an entire species and putting them through pain of the Vaharai without their consent, ultimately changing the balance and race relations of the planet, and not necessarily in a good way. It may just result in a Kelpien-Ba'ul war that lasts for centuries. It's like the crew didn't even consider the long term effects of their actions.

On another note, mystery solved? :p
View attachment 993554

No way those are Tilly's thighs...

Besides, like everything else running the Federation, it's clearly S.31 :p
 
I count once in TOS -- and that one was iffy ("Miri" -- if McCoy hadn't concocted that treatment and they let themselves die to preserve the Prime Directive, those kids would've ended up dying off as they hit puberty and there wouldn't have been any culture left on the planet to influence). All the rest of the Prime Directive issues in that series were Kirk & Co. going in to fix breaches of the Prime Directive by others -- or interference that predated it.

Wait, what?
Ok, what about...

Return of the Archons
The Apple
A Taste of Armegeddon
The Gamsters of Triskelion
 
Wait, what?
Ok, what about...

Return of the Archons

Starship Archon had visited the planet before. Contact already made. Landru built a computer that maintained cultural stasis for over a century. Already an underground resistance, with people in place at the heart of Landru's computer. Kirk & Co. just helped a bit at the end.

The Apple

Already discussed. The Vaal computer was placed there by entities unknown. Culture already interfered with.

A Taste of Armegeddon

Also already discussed -- see my post at the top of the page.

The Gamsters of Triskelion

An advanced spacefaring civilization that transports beings of other races from all around that part of the galaxy to their planet for gladiatorial combat... Not a primitive society that needs us to keep our hands off, not a governmental entity we have relations with and agreements to butt out. They regard us as animals they can do with as they please. As with the other advanced-beings-who-look-down-on-us stories ("The Savage Curtain", "Arena", "Shore Leave", etc.), it ain't a Prime Directive situation.
 
Starship Archon had visited the planet before. Contact already made. Landru built a computer that maintained cultural stasis for over a century. Already an underground resistance, with people in place at the heart of Landru's computer. Kirk & Co. just helped a bit at the end.



Already discussed. The Vaal computer was placed there by entities unknown. Culture already interfered with.



Also already discussed -- see my post at the top of the page.



An advanced spacefaring civilization that transports beings of other races from all around that part of the galaxy to their planet for gladiatorial combat... Not a primitive society that needs us to keep our hands off, not a governmental entity we have relations with and agreements to butt out. They regard us as animals they can do with as they please. As with the other advanced-beings-who-look-down-on-us stories ("The Savage Curtain", "Arena", "Shore Leave", etc.), it ain't a Prime Directive situation.


Wow, I couldn't disagree more. You've made a lot of assumptions and glossed over several facts.

The Return of the Archons
The starship Archon had visited ... so what? It was destroyed by Landru. It did not interfere with the culture. And your very statement that Kirk helped "a little" down plays what he did. He chose one side in an internal conflict, a side that at that time appeared to be losing, and changed the entire culture of a planet.

The Apple
You made a huge assumption here. You have no idea where Vaal came from nor did Kirk. He came in and once again changed an entire culture.

A Taste of Armageddon
Once again, you ignore a basic fact here. While Kirk did go in on Federation orders (specifically a higher ranking ambassador order) he still chose to interfere in a society because he decided he didn't like the way it was running it's war. So again, he made a major change that forced that society down a certain path.

The Gamesters of Triskelion
Kirk could have bet on his crews release but he went a step farther, he made a bet that included making a change to the larger society.

The whole point of the Prime Directive is a Starfleet officer cannot play god. They cannot interfere with culture just because they don't agree with the path it is on. They take an oath that they would sacrifice themselves - even their ship - if needed. They are not allowed to interfere. Kirk ignored that directive multiple times.
 
The Return of the Archons
The starship Archon had visited ... so what? It was destroyed by Landru. It did not interfere with the culture. And your very statement that Kirk helped "a little" down plays what he did. He chose one side in an internal conflict, a side that at that time appeared to be losing, and changed the entire culture of a planet.

A century after the Archon visited, a member of the resistance asked the Enterprise crew if they were "Archons". That the name of the ship had persisted through word-of-mouth for a century says something. A culture like that would not have been ready for First Contact. Probable Archon crew spilled all when incorporated into The Body. Plus the Landru computer used power beams to pull the ship out of orbit and crash it. An interstellar starship crashing on your planet is definitely going to skew that world's "natural development". Never mind all the information divulged from brainwashed Starfleet personnel.

For all that any resistance movement has gains and losses, that one had persisted since Landru turned his computer on. I re-watched it not too long ago, and got the impression that this was one cell in a larger movement, although that cell -- being right at the heart of things -- was in a bad way. Even if it had been wiped out, others would carry on. And they had people right in Landru's facility by that point.

Given everything, yes the Enterprise crew interfered, but there had already been cultural damage, and resistance movements have a tendency to not go away. History demonstrates the opposite. I am not being glib in saying that, on a cultural-evolution level, Kirk brought a resolution to things a little sooner than it might otherwise have, but that that conclusion was ultimately inevitable.

The Apple
You made a huge assumption here. You have no idea where Vaal came from nor did Kirk. He came in and once again changed an entire culture.

There was no evidence the indigenous people had ever had a level of technology to build such an artifact. Ergo, highly unlikely they inflicted that stasis on themselves a la Landru. More likely external influence like the Preservers of "The Paradise Syndrome", but more actively intrusive.

A Taste of Armageddon
Once again, you ignore a basic fact here. While Kirk did go in on Federation orders (specifically a higher ranking ambassador order) he still chose to interfere in a society because he decided he didn't like the way it was running it's war. So again, he made a major change that forced that society down a certain path.

The Gamesters of Triskelion
Kirk could have bet on his crews release but he went a step farther, he made a bet that included making a change to the larger society.

These are actually a whole other category. The Prime Directive is specifically about "less-developed" societies. Everything across the series (plural) paints a pointillist picture of single-planet, non-space-faring, don't-know-aliens-exist sorts of civilizations. Once they're on multiple planets and/or have interstellar/FTL capability and/or know there are other beings out there in the cosmos, the Prime Directive has been shown to matter less, or not at all. And where the question of meddling in internal affairs of other spacefaring civilizations is a point of discussion, it's governments they have treaties with, rather than a blanket prohibition like General Order Number One.

The only time I recall seeing the Prime Directive invoked in a multiplanet situation was in TNG's "Symbiosis", where Picard used a literalist interpretation to passively interfere in the Brekkian drug cartel and their victimization of their species' other planet. The Excalbians, the Melkot, the Triskelians, the Eminians and Vendikans, the Ekosians and Zeons, the First Federation, the Zetarians, the Edo, the Straleb and Atlec, and on and on and on... Our Heroes treat them more like peers than protectorates, even when the tech level or territorial scope are significantly disparate, one direction or the other.

It's why I question whether "The Return of the Archons" was ever even a Prime Directive matter. Yeah, they're on one planet, like the Edo, but the tech level was impressive. Why and how would a non-spacefaring world have equipment powerful enough to pull a starship out of orbit? In the episode itself, the locals they're talking to say that the planet had been more advanced, but when war threatened to destroy everything (a la Earth's WWIII, maybe? When we were already traveling interstellar?), Landru force-reset everything to a simpler time.

And "A Taste of Armageddon" remains a weird one. There are subtle and less-subtle contextual cues in the Captain's log slugs and in dialogue. The Valiant visited there fifty years ago, ignoring a warning-away. Why did they ignore? How had the natives detected and communicated with the starship to stay out of their star system? If it was anything like the very next contact with the system, it was a code-710 transmission while the ship was still outside the system, via subspace radio. That indicates a planet with whom interstellar contact had already been established and codified, that there was a specific cited proviso they employed and that Kirk (and the Valiant crew before, as their records indicated) recognized. Communications were probably initiated across interstellar distances sometime prior to the Valiant's visit, though with no normalized diplomatic relations (Ambassador Fox's whole mission, after all).

After decades of knowing of the system, the Federation is hot to establish diplomatic relations "at any cost". That's not how one approaches a Prime Directive protectorate. The war has been going on for nearly five hundred years. Unclear how much of that has been the "virtual" war with computers. But I get a sense from the episode that the Federation's position is tacitly one of "this part of space is starting to fill up and get civilized, you can't stay isolated forever, if the Klingons or Romulans run across you, they'll just take over, we actually want to get to know you." Probably why the Valiant went in in defiance of the code-710, and definitely why the Enterprise was ordered in.
 
Apparently Michael was able to take a shuttle to Vulcan in the same amount of time it took Pike to take a turbolift to the shuttle bay.

Speaking of turbolifts, WHAT THE F IS THIS CRAP:

Screen Shot 2019-03-01 at 1.27.30 PM.png

A huge cavernous space that's just for turbolift rails and worker bees floating around? What in the bloody blazing hell.

Also, editorially, why do we need to see the turbolift shaft at all? Would you see a random cutaway to an elevator shaft in a cop show, a doctor show, a lawyer show? No, because it serves no purpose.
 
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