Star Trek Beyond
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Re: New STAR TREK 3
It would still be a bad story that doesn't stand up under its own merits.
--Jonah
It would still be a bad story that doesn't stand up under its own merits.
--Jonah
Re: New STAR TREK 3
If they ever do do a rebooot, I'd like to see them do it right. If we follow Kirk, there's enough of his backstory in TOS and the novels to draw from: Young childhood adoring his dad, teens spent getting in trouble and being massively rebellious, pivotal event when he sees what Starfleet is all about and why people join up and who his dad really is, his hyper-studious Academy years, him reprogramming the Kobayashi Maru simulation computer himself, staying on as a student-instructor, his early postings on the Republic and Farragut, his eventual command of a Destroyer, and ultimate selection of him by Pike to replace him as Captain of the Enterprise, when his relaxed confidence had been hard-won by experience.
Other characters can weave in and around that, such as meeting Bones when he was recovering from the Farragut disaster. As with Rebels and The Force Awakens, I'd like to see a Star Trek reboot tackled by actual fanboys who have all the novels and comics to draw inspiration and material from.
--Jonah
If they ever do do a rebooot, I'd like to see them do it right. If we follow Kirk, there's enough of his backstory in TOS and the novels to draw from: Young childhood adoring his dad, teens spent getting in trouble and being massively rebellious, pivotal event when he sees what Starfleet is all about and why people join up and who his dad really is, his hyper-studious Academy years, him reprogramming the Kobayashi Maru simulation computer himself, staying on as a student-instructor, his early postings on the Republic and Farragut, his eventual command of a Destroyer, and ultimate selection of him by Pike to replace him as Captain of the Enterprise, when his relaxed confidence had been hard-won by experience.
Other characters can weave in and around that, such as meeting Bones when he was recovering from the Farragut disaster. As with Rebels and The Force Awakens, I'd like to see a Star Trek reboot tackled by actual fanboys who have all the novels and comics to draw inspiration and material from.
--Jonah
Laspector
Master Member
Re: New STAR TREK 3
The only problem with doing that is if they ever do a reboot that takes place before Kirk takes over the Enterprise then you are never going to have that triangle of Kirk, Spock, McCoy. Is anyone going to want the adventures of Kirk without Spock? Or Spock without Kirk? Sure, some of us huge fans might could deal with some of that, but I don't think the general public would ever go for it.
The only problem with doing that is if they ever do a reboot that takes place before Kirk takes over the Enterprise then you are never going to have that triangle of Kirk, Spock, McCoy. Is anyone going to want the adventures of Kirk without Spock? Or Spock without Kirk? Sure, some of us huge fans might could deal with some of that, but I don't think the general public would ever go for it.
Re: New STAR TREK 3
That is the big issue. Properly done, it could chart them in parallel. Kirk was ten when the Enterprise was launched under Captain April. It could almost be cast as the story of the Enterprise, with the ship as the central character, only truly coming into her own when all three of the triumvirate are aboard. George Kirk's friendship with April sees him on the Enterprise, bringing a rebellious, teenaged Jim Kirk with him to try to snap him out of his self-absorbtion. A more seasoned Lieutenant Jim Kirk is recovering from injuries sustained while serving on the Farragut when he meets a doctor named McCoy who recently joined Starfleet to get away from a messy divorce. Recent Academy grad Spock is stationed aboard Enterprise under Captain Pike. Kirk gets command of a Destroyer late in the Four Years War, fighting alongside Pike on the Enterprise and Captain Garth of the Xenophon. Pike stumps for Kirk to succeed him when he gets promoted. Kirk meets Spock for the first time and requests McCoy as his CMO.
I'm willing to bet I could hammer that into a coherent story treatment. About twenty minutes a stretch for the three earlier periods, getting us to the halfway point. The war with the Klingons then sets the stage for the coda of Kirk getting the Enterprise, him and Spock circling each other warily, and McCoy coming aboard to balance things out.
--Jonah
That is the big issue. Properly done, it could chart them in parallel. Kirk was ten when the Enterprise was launched under Captain April. It could almost be cast as the story of the Enterprise, with the ship as the central character, only truly coming into her own when all three of the triumvirate are aboard. George Kirk's friendship with April sees him on the Enterprise, bringing a rebellious, teenaged Jim Kirk with him to try to snap him out of his self-absorbtion. A more seasoned Lieutenant Jim Kirk is recovering from injuries sustained while serving on the Farragut when he meets a doctor named McCoy who recently joined Starfleet to get away from a messy divorce. Recent Academy grad Spock is stationed aboard Enterprise under Captain Pike. Kirk gets command of a Destroyer late in the Four Years War, fighting alongside Pike on the Enterprise and Captain Garth of the Xenophon. Pike stumps for Kirk to succeed him when he gets promoted. Kirk meets Spock for the first time and requests McCoy as his CMO.
I'm willing to bet I could hammer that into a coherent story treatment. About twenty minutes a stretch for the three earlier periods, getting us to the halfway point. The war with the Klingons then sets the stage for the coda of Kirk getting the Enterprise, him and Spock circling each other warily, and McCoy coming aboard to balance things out.
--Jonah
Re: New STAR TREK 3
I don't know. Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager and Star Trek: Enterprise seemed to do alright without Kirk or Spock. The first TNG movie to not feature Kirk performed a lot better than Kirk's last movie.
Also, if we knew what the general public would go for, we wouldn't have this thing called flops. Quit scraping at the bottom of the barrel and do Star Trek that isn't dictated by pre-established expectations.
I don't know. Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager and Star Trek: Enterprise seemed to do alright without Kirk or Spock. The first TNG movie to not feature Kirk performed a lot better than Kirk's last movie.
Also, if we knew what the general public would go for, we wouldn't have this thing called flops. Quit scraping at the bottom of the barrel and do Star Trek that isn't dictated by pre-established expectations.
Riceball
Master Member
Re: New STAR TREK 3
You mean like the false notion that Kirk, Spock, & McCoy all met in the Academy? That's something that I'll never understand why Paramount has always been so obsessed with and have been trying for years to make happen but never did until JJ's Trek movies even though it's well established in the original canon that this never happened. I like IP's idea of how to do an "origin" story, it gets the holy triumverate together without having them meet while being in the same graduating class at the Academy.
You mean like the false notion that Kirk, Spock, & McCoy all met in the Academy? That's something that I'll never understand why Paramount has always been so obsessed with and have been trying for years to make happen but never did until JJ's Trek movies even though it's well established in the original canon that this never happened. I like IP's idea of how to do an "origin" story, it gets the holy triumverate together without having them meet while being in the same graduating class at the Academy.
kalkamel
Master Member
Re: New STAR TREK 3
"I AM KIROK!"
http://www.blastr.com/2014-12-16/how-guardians-galaxy-led-changes-star-trek-3
"I AM KIROK!"
http://www.blastr.com/2014-12-16/how-guardians-galaxy-led-changes-star-trek-3
Zombie_61
Master Member
Re: New STAR TREK 3
The thing I appreciate most about Urban's performance as Bones is in the way he's taken some of the character traits that Kelley used to define the character--the sarcastic tone in his voice, the hint of an "American south" accent, the occasional short temper, etc.--and used them in his performance instead of just doing a flat-out imitation of DeForest Kelley. Zachary Quinto seemed to be trying to do the same thing with his performance as Spock, but Quinto's performance feels like an imitation while Urban's performance feels natural.
Re: New STAR TREK 3
Thanks for the nod @Riceball. I've been sort of dinking at this in breakdown form. I now have a notion for four films. First one is centered on Kirk. So far I have:
• About 5-10 minutes of: 9-year-old Jimmy hoping his dad will make it home in time for his birthday, and the stories his dad tells him about space and spaceships. Cut to:
• Five years later. Kirk is lashing out, combination of his dad never being home and what happened on Tarsus IV, and he's determined he's going to run off and make his own way. George catches up with him and takes him out with April on the Enterprise hoping to jar him out of his self-centeredness. I borrow a lot in this and the above from the novels Final Frontier and Best Destiny. There's a lot in them that doesn't work -- in general or for a film -- but for Kirk backstory and motivation, and characterization of George Kirk I love them. I am especially keeping the scene where Jim first sees the Enterprise from their orbital shuttle and his jaw hits the floor. Some version of what happened in Best Destiny to snap Jim out of himself. This scene will probably run for about 20-30 minutes.
• Semi-montage or rapid progression of short scenes following his decision to join Starfleet. A couple year later he is able to apply and get in, with the assistance of a man named Mallory. We see some of his hazing as a first-year by Finnegan. We see him as part of the Axanar Peace Mission that ended the Four Years War and brought Captain Garth to his attention. We see him in Professor John Gill's history lectures and studying Captain Garth's strategies. We see him with student-instructor Lieutenant Ben Finney. We see him get beaten by the Kobayashi Mary test twice, and I borrow here from the novel Kobayashi Maru. We see him reprogramming the simulation computer and his successful third attempt. I definitely lift this from the novel. *heh* We see him as a student-instructor himself, meeting and befriending Gary Mitchell -- and needing to be set up on dates by him because of how focused he is on his studies (which can also include him being with Ruth, and having to leave her behind when he graduates and is stationed to the Farragut. This can also all be done in about 20-30 minutes.
• This is the bit I'm most excited about. I don't know if we want to see the landing party to Neural where he meets Tyee and runs afoul of the mugato. But definitely the run-in with the cloud creature and its impact on the Farragut's crew, including Kirk. But from there, we have almost nothing until we pick up a year into his command of Enterprise. He meets McCoy while recuperating, and probably Carol Marcus at the same time. When he is cleared to return to active duty, they break up but she's already pregnant with David. From there, though, we don't know anything, really about the next five years. I have him being posted as first officer of a smaller ship -- a Light Cruiser or Frigate, probably not actually a Destroyer... This is where he meets the scientist Janet Wallace (later Janet Lester) and they get involved. Something happens, he assumes command, which is later confirmed by Starfleet. Areel Shaw, who he knows from the Academy, couriers this out to the ship. They may or may not have a fling. All this is timeline line-items that fill out the bulk of the next hour.
• Some undetermined conflict brings Commander (brevet Captain) Kirk to Pike's attention more directly. Possibly the Vulcanian Expedition -- a nonviolent conflict, but a sort of show of force to try to get Vulcan to participate more actively, dammit. Starfleet promotes Pike in part due to his actions in said conflict, and Pike uses his moment of notoriety to ask for Kirk to be the Enterprise's new Captain, both out of respect for Jim and to honor his old friendship with his predecessor Captain April and with George Kirk. The promotion and transfer-of-command ceremony is where Kirk meets Spock for the first time. Also where Kirk requests Gary Mitchell as his XO and McCoy as his CMO. Probably introduce other not-yet-familiar faces as old crew leave and new come in.
The next film would focus on Spock, and end with his first meeting with Kirk from his perspective. The third would focus on McCoy and end with him getting Kirk's request. Then the fourth film would be the unseen first year of Kirk's command as they all get settled into their new roles now that they're all together.
Problem is, that's more setup than Hollywood tends to want to risk, even though I think audiences would definitely stick with it, and even though Marvel Studios is shooting the short-attention-span theory in the head. Make a good, compelling story, with good characters, and they'll respond. The fact that it's Star Trek will be a bit of a draw, but largely incidental. That will be more of a factor for the fourth film. Kinda like the Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Thor, Captain America lead-u[ to the Avengers.
[ETA: I also am using the opportunity to iron out inconsistencies and fix the timeline, such as the classes of the Republic and Farragut, when Kirk was born and attended the Academy, when he took command, when the Five-Year Mission was, and -- by extension -- when TMP was. Unlike the Okudas, whom I otherwise have utmost respect for, I use dating referents in the canon, production notes and scripts (where they aren't contradicted), interviews with folks like Matt Jeffries, etc., rather than being utterly arbitrary.]
--Jonah
Thanks for the nod @Riceball. I've been sort of dinking at this in breakdown form. I now have a notion for four films. First one is centered on Kirk. So far I have:
• About 5-10 minutes of: 9-year-old Jimmy hoping his dad will make it home in time for his birthday, and the stories his dad tells him about space and spaceships. Cut to:
• Five years later. Kirk is lashing out, combination of his dad never being home and what happened on Tarsus IV, and he's determined he's going to run off and make his own way. George catches up with him and takes him out with April on the Enterprise hoping to jar him out of his self-centeredness. I borrow a lot in this and the above from the novels Final Frontier and Best Destiny. There's a lot in them that doesn't work -- in general or for a film -- but for Kirk backstory and motivation, and characterization of George Kirk I love them. I am especially keeping the scene where Jim first sees the Enterprise from their orbital shuttle and his jaw hits the floor. Some version of what happened in Best Destiny to snap Jim out of himself. This scene will probably run for about 20-30 minutes.
• Semi-montage or rapid progression of short scenes following his decision to join Starfleet. A couple year later he is able to apply and get in, with the assistance of a man named Mallory. We see some of his hazing as a first-year by Finnegan. We see him as part of the Axanar Peace Mission that ended the Four Years War and brought Captain Garth to his attention. We see him in Professor John Gill's history lectures and studying Captain Garth's strategies. We see him with student-instructor Lieutenant Ben Finney. We see him get beaten by the Kobayashi Mary test twice, and I borrow here from the novel Kobayashi Maru. We see him reprogramming the simulation computer and his successful third attempt. I definitely lift this from the novel. *heh* We see him as a student-instructor himself, meeting and befriending Gary Mitchell -- and needing to be set up on dates by him because of how focused he is on his studies (which can also include him being with Ruth, and having to leave her behind when he graduates and is stationed to the Farragut. This can also all be done in about 20-30 minutes.
• This is the bit I'm most excited about. I don't know if we want to see the landing party to Neural where he meets Tyee and runs afoul of the mugato. But definitely the run-in with the cloud creature and its impact on the Farragut's crew, including Kirk. But from there, we have almost nothing until we pick up a year into his command of Enterprise. He meets McCoy while recuperating, and probably Carol Marcus at the same time. When he is cleared to return to active duty, they break up but she's already pregnant with David. From there, though, we don't know anything, really about the next five years. I have him being posted as first officer of a smaller ship -- a Light Cruiser or Frigate, probably not actually a Destroyer... This is where he meets the scientist Janet Wallace (later Janet Lester) and they get involved. Something happens, he assumes command, which is later confirmed by Starfleet. Areel Shaw, who he knows from the Academy, couriers this out to the ship. They may or may not have a fling. All this is timeline line-items that fill out the bulk of the next hour.
• Some undetermined conflict brings Commander (brevet Captain) Kirk to Pike's attention more directly. Possibly the Vulcanian Expedition -- a nonviolent conflict, but a sort of show of force to try to get Vulcan to participate more actively, dammit. Starfleet promotes Pike in part due to his actions in said conflict, and Pike uses his moment of notoriety to ask for Kirk to be the Enterprise's new Captain, both out of respect for Jim and to honor his old friendship with his predecessor Captain April and with George Kirk. The promotion and transfer-of-command ceremony is where Kirk meets Spock for the first time. Also where Kirk requests Gary Mitchell as his XO and McCoy as his CMO. Probably introduce other not-yet-familiar faces as old crew leave and new come in.
The next film would focus on Spock, and end with his first meeting with Kirk from his perspective. The third would focus on McCoy and end with him getting Kirk's request. Then the fourth film would be the unseen first year of Kirk's command as they all get settled into their new roles now that they're all together.
Problem is, that's more setup than Hollywood tends to want to risk, even though I think audiences would definitely stick with it, and even though Marvel Studios is shooting the short-attention-span theory in the head. Make a good, compelling story, with good characters, and they'll respond. The fact that it's Star Trek will be a bit of a draw, but largely incidental. That will be more of a factor for the fourth film. Kinda like the Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Thor, Captain America lead-u[ to the Avengers.
[ETA: I also am using the opportunity to iron out inconsistencies and fix the timeline, such as the classes of the Republic and Farragut, when Kirk was born and attended the Academy, when he took command, when the Five-Year Mission was, and -- by extension -- when TMP was. Unlike the Okudas, whom I otherwise have utmost respect for, I use dating referents in the canon, production notes and scripts (where they aren't contradicted), interviews with folks like Matt Jeffries, etc., rather than being utterly arbitrary.]
--Jonah
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robn1
Master Member
Re: New STAR TREK 3
Janet Wallace and Janice Lester were two different characters.
I don't think such a drawn out set up would fly in today's movie climate, but I like it. A TV mini series may be a more likely approach.
Janet Wallace and Janice Lester were two different characters.
I don't think such a drawn out set up would fly in today's movie climate, but I like it. A TV mini series may be a more likely approach.
Re: New STAR TREK 3
Okay. My face is red here. I've apparently been blurring those characters in my head for several years without realizing it. *headdesk*
I hadn't thought so, either, when I was first thinking about it the first time the "Kirk and Spock at the Academy" thing was floating back in the late '80s/early '90s. But seeing how Marvel pulled off the build up to the Avengers... I don't think that film would have been as good or engaged viewers as much if the various characters hadn't already been established over the last four (five, if you want to include Norton's Incredible Hulk) films. Each character got their own spotlight before they had to come together as a team. Avengers works great on its own, for people who hadn't seen the previous films, but is better with a sense of what led to that. Now I'm liking the idea of establishing each of the Big Three as their own persons before they have to work together.
--Jonah
Okay. My face is red here. I've apparently been blurring those characters in my head for several years without realizing it. *headdesk*
I hadn't thought so, either, when I was first thinking about it the first time the "Kirk and Spock at the Academy" thing was floating back in the late '80s/early '90s. But seeing how Marvel pulled off the build up to the Avengers... I don't think that film would have been as good or engaged viewers as much if the various characters hadn't already been established over the last four (five, if you want to include Norton's Incredible Hulk) films. Each character got their own spotlight before they had to come together as a team. Avengers works great on its own, for people who hadn't seen the previous films, but is better with a sense of what led to that. Now I'm liking the idea of establishing each of the Big Three as their own persons before they have to work together.
--Jonah
ghostryder
Legendary Member
Re: New STAR TREK 3
The Next Generation of Star Trek Should Be a TV Show
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...ar-trek-to-return-to-the-small-screen/383794/
The Next Generation of Star Trek Should Be a TV Show
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...ar-trek-to-return-to-the-small-screen/383794/
Re: New STAR TREK 3
Star Trek 3’s New Director Will Be ‘Fast & Furious 6′ Helmer Justin Lin | Deadline
Didn't expect this. Hopefully he will deliver a good sequel.
FAST & FURIOUS Director Justin Lin To Take The STAR TREK 3 Helm | Badass Digest
Paramount's reasoning and what Lin could bring to the film.
Star Trek 3’s New Director Will Be ‘Fast & Furious 6′ Helmer Justin Lin | Deadline
Didn't expect this. Hopefully he will deliver a good sequel.
FAST & FURIOUS Director Justin Lin To Take The STAR TREK 3 Helm | Badass Digest
Paramount's reasoning and what Lin could bring to the film.
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Re: New STAR TREK 3
An action packed, heavily male driven, female eye-candy stuffed movie that will appeal and satisfy the masses who have no desire to think or be absorbed in the material they're going to watch. Basically what we've been getting already only directed by someone who does a much better job at it. As long as he doesn't come off like JJ did with his overly passive interest in Trek, we should be fine. As Bruce Campbell once said, "You have to give a ******". After all, the folks in charge who tried to convince the fandom that they really cared about Star Trek have since left before it really went anywhere.
An action packed, heavily male driven, female eye-candy stuffed movie that will appeal and satisfy the masses who have no desire to think or be absorbed in the material they're going to watch. Basically what we've been getting already only directed by someone who does a much better job at it. As long as he doesn't come off like JJ did with his overly passive interest in Trek, we should be fine. As Bruce Campbell once said, "You have to give a ******". After all, the folks in charge who tried to convince the fandom that they really cared about Star Trek have since left before it really went anywhere.
Alan Cross
Sr Member
Re: New STAR TREK 3
This is terrible news. Fast & Furious is a BS franchise. Flash over substance. Not what Trek needs.
This is terrible news. Fast & Furious is a BS franchise. Flash over substance. Not what Trek needs.
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