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Score of my lifetime. SL ANH Vader face mask.
- Thread starter vader45
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vader45
Sr Member
Yes I know that but my point was to explain that none of us own any of ILMs work. SL owns a cast from the RB mold but it's not copyrighted to him. Anyone else is able to produce RB copies.
Juan also has a RB cast and made copies. And that's what exactly SL did but everyone says he owns producing rights. If that really is the case Juan is in the wrong.
We own nothing but physical items. It's the sense of entitlement is what I'm referring to and imo is a bad trait to have. Its ok to copy original molds to provide but don't act like it's your work and only you have rights to produce.
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You still don’t get it. Juan and Thomas both have first generation copies from the mold. The way the community works, says they can produce copies. You don’t have to agree with the community norms, but by not recognizing them you are basically guaranteeing you won’t be sold lineage items in the future.
Man, did I miss out on Juan's RB helmet casting run too?
I really like what RS Prop Masters do. They purchased an original item and knew that offering castings of it at a more "reasonable" price would mean that people who love this stuff and want it to be as accurate as possible would be able to get one and they'd also be able to recover their initial upfront investment.
Making these things available more widely certainly shouldn't make the hobby more boring. Ultimately, the items I choose to display in my display room are for me to look at and enjoy. Only a handful of family members and friends see them and none of them are as "into" the pieces as deeply as I am, so there's really no "bragging rights" about having them. Just my opinion.
I really like what RS Prop Masters do. They purchased an original item and knew that offering castings of it at a more "reasonable" price would mean that people who love this stuff and want it to be as accurate as possible would be able to get one and they'd also be able to recover their initial upfront investment.
Making these things available more widely certainly shouldn't make the hobby more boring. Ultimately, the items I choose to display in my display room are for me to look at and enjoy. Only a handful of family members and friends see them and none of them are as "into" the pieces as deeply as I am, so there's really no "bragging rights" about having them. Just my opinion.
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vader45
Sr Member
You're not getting what I am saying. I understand they both have 1st generation copies and the community sees that copying as ok. I get it and that's not what I'm disputing.
What I am is that people think SL has the rights and is the only one who can produce copies. No no he doesn't.
Me mentioning Juan was a hypothetical example of no one owning anything. If Thomas has the rights to copy first generation casts where would that put Juan? He automatically has rights to just for owning a cast?
Even if these so called rights exist we can't even get in contact with Thomas to allow others to do it. He cheated people and thats wrong. Why would you want these rights to stay with a thief?
But reality is the producing rights do not exist weather it's for copying 1st gen pieces or recasting someone else's final piece. Lucas did not give any ok to copy RB casts. I completely understand the communities stance and that's not what I'm discussing.
ggriffaw
Sr Member
Do you see that same level of roughness on screen in ANH? I know the ANH helmet was more beat up than the ESB or ROTJ, but I don't remember it looking almost like it was in a fire.
That is one thing that I don't care for on most "authentic" Vader casts. They don't look like what I remember seeing as far as texture.
The photos I saw of the helmet CFO used looked really bad as far as how it was treated and painted,
vader45
Sr Member
I don't mean any disrespect towards anyone or the community. I get it and understand the communities stance. I agree with it. Lying cheating and stealing are wrong. I mearly was talking about the tecjlhnicalities of it.
But the communities stance is more of a moral stance.
vader45
Sr Member
This is a picture of the original ANH helmet when it was at Don Post. It really shows the roughness.
ggriffaw
Sr Member
Thanks for the photo. Was that from long after filming ANH? I wonder if some of that is damage that does not appear in much of ANH.
When I have seen original helmets for a variety of characters at conventions, the helmets look surprisingly bad. It's like they didn't take care of them at all. Then many people outside of the film making community wear white gloves when handling the original props.
ggriffaw
Sr Member
Honestly I think most purchasers want a helmet that is more cleaned up than many of the authentic casts. Obviously some people do want the authentic casts with all of the texture and damage, but I would bet most average people that want a Vader would prefer something like the efx. For me the efx is too clean, but the authentic casts are too rough. I want something that reminds me of what I saw in 1977. I have a Quasimodo ANH on order.
vader45
Sr Member
I believe that photo was taken in 1978 while shooting was in 1976
ggriffaw
Sr Member
The thing that bugs me about the Vader community is many people who have access to authentic items and info make vague statements about how innacurate non authentic items are, but are not willing to give any details of why they are inaccurate. I understand not wanting to give out certain details to try to prevent dishonest copies. But if people can tell that a recast of an authentic helmet is not one of the approved authentic casts, I don't think it is very likely someone could create a fan sculpt so close that no one could tell it isn't an approved authentic cast.
There is way too much restriction and secrecy on many details related to Vader props, even details visible on the outside. It seems like people wanting to feel superior because they know and have access to stuff most don't. I don't get that same feeling when discussing other SW props. Even with the secrecy, there are people who try to sell recasts or other non authentic items as authentic.
I appreciate and understand what is being said about becoming trusted by the Vader community. I just get a bad vibe by how some Vader experts put down anything that doesn't have direct lineage. I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of doing that, but I have seen it on other threads. This is supposed to be a fun hobby.
There is way too much restriction and secrecy on many details related to Vader props, even details visible on the outside. It seems like people wanting to feel superior because they know and have access to stuff most don't. I don't get that same feeling when discussing other SW props. Even with the secrecy, there are people who try to sell recasts or other non authentic items as authentic.
I appreciate and understand what is being said about becoming trusted by the Vader community. I just get a bad vibe by how some Vader experts put down anything that doesn't have direct lineage. I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of doing that, but I have seen it on other threads. This is supposed to be a fun hobby.
Darth Africanus
Sr Member
I for one am glad we can have discussions such as these I don't see them as futile.
They help the community at least consider maybe the way things are need to evolve
or that things need a little bit of change
I mean think of it like this if there weren't great people like Mark at CFO or Mike Vader Monkey
a lot of people who also want amazing lineage pieces would be left out
Not everyone knows where to begin,who to talk to etc to get into the collecting scene
But vendors who make it easier who keep it strictly business I give you my money for the Item you are selling is the best way forward
I would much rather support a Honest,honorable man like Mark fanatically than a thief like TM
and now just because my loyalty lies with Mark and the proof is there TM recast ed I will tell anybody
and anybody to stay away from TM don't buy from him and nor will I ever buy from him
and in the long run this will kill of re casters as it becomes the norm to support only the really honest people
that no one would dare support re casters for fear of being shunned by the community because everyone can easily get wat they want from the right guy and if you are found to support a re caster to be blacklisted
The problem with keeping certain items to one self is that it invites people to find away to get something they want but can't have.
if there are only 10 SL helmets for example and all 10 owners are going to take the helmet to their grave and never sell it but it gets shown off
to everyone the problem is someone is always going to say but why can't I have one and by roger I will find away to get one
and it only takes one person in that group of 10 owners to go well I don't feel so strongly about the rules
well I could use the extra money and look we have a recaster. We can't police everyone I mean al it takes
is for this strider person to decide he is going to make more casts there are people who are going to go behind the scene's and say stuff the rules
All this in healthy debate I feel we as a group need to talk about such things openly to be able to truly understand and help Vader fans that all of us want to feel part of the fan club of Vader and those who want to collect vader items
In my opinion I don't think its ok to have a community of collectors who believe its about who you know
and are you friends with them.By this I mean it can foster a group who call each other friends but only really want stuff from each other they arent really friends just at face value they want something from each other. For one I can use myself as an example im such a person that I can except other people as friends very quickly and then I bombard them with questions and so on because im just all too happy to know someone that shares my passion and as I know people tend not to like others who are too nice,enthusiastic so on it's a psychology thing
and it can come across to others that this guy is just my friend so he can get his hands on what I know or one of the rare items
and honestly human biases being what they are who is going to really want to sell things to that person
Rather than the close group of friends you already know and believe are your true friends and a lets keep it in the group
mentality can then form
All I truly want is for all of us to be equal Vader fan's to celebrate everyone's desire to obtain Vader collectors items equally across the board
and to be true friends who really just want to make life just that little more joyful for each other rather than go down that rabbit hole of jealousy and anger that life seems so full of already.I wish to see the end of people saying those prop den guys are such so and so's because they are so full of it or those RPF people are so hated because I just wanted a question answered and everyone attacked me.And it can go on
I would like to be part of the community of awesome people who do just stick to being decent human beings but that that decency comes from all sides and that everyone tries at least to be compassionate and understand the other person and their desires aswell.
No more philosophical rants promise
They help the community at least consider maybe the way things are need to evolve
or that things need a little bit of change
I mean think of it like this if there weren't great people like Mark at CFO or Mike Vader Monkey
a lot of people who also want amazing lineage pieces would be left out
Not everyone knows where to begin,who to talk to etc to get into the collecting scene
But vendors who make it easier who keep it strictly business I give you my money for the Item you are selling is the best way forward
I would much rather support a Honest,honorable man like Mark fanatically than a thief like TM
and now just because my loyalty lies with Mark and the proof is there TM recast ed I will tell anybody
and anybody to stay away from TM don't buy from him and nor will I ever buy from him
and in the long run this will kill of re casters as it becomes the norm to support only the really honest people
that no one would dare support re casters for fear of being shunned by the community because everyone can easily get wat they want from the right guy and if you are found to support a re caster to be blacklisted
The problem with keeping certain items to one self is that it invites people to find away to get something they want but can't have.
if there are only 10 SL helmets for example and all 10 owners are going to take the helmet to their grave and never sell it but it gets shown off
to everyone the problem is someone is always going to say but why can't I have one and by roger I will find away to get one
and it only takes one person in that group of 10 owners to go well I don't feel so strongly about the rules
well I could use the extra money and look we have a recaster. We can't police everyone I mean al it takes
is for this strider person to decide he is going to make more casts there are people who are going to go behind the scene's and say stuff the rules
All this in healthy debate I feel we as a group need to talk about such things openly to be able to truly understand and help Vader fans that all of us want to feel part of the fan club of Vader and those who want to collect vader items
In my opinion I don't think its ok to have a community of collectors who believe its about who you know
and are you friends with them.By this I mean it can foster a group who call each other friends but only really want stuff from each other they arent really friends just at face value they want something from each other. For one I can use myself as an example im such a person that I can except other people as friends very quickly and then I bombard them with questions and so on because im just all too happy to know someone that shares my passion and as I know people tend not to like others who are too nice,enthusiastic so on it's a psychology thing
and it can come across to others that this guy is just my friend so he can get his hands on what I know or one of the rare items
and honestly human biases being what they are who is going to really want to sell things to that person
Rather than the close group of friends you already know and believe are your true friends and a lets keep it in the group
mentality can then form
All I truly want is for all of us to be equal Vader fan's to celebrate everyone's desire to obtain Vader collectors items equally across the board
and to be true friends who really just want to make life just that little more joyful for each other rather than go down that rabbit hole of jealousy and anger that life seems so full of already.I wish to see the end of people saying those prop den guys are such so and so's because they are so full of it or those RPF people are so hated because I just wanted a question answered and everyone attacked me.And it can go on
I would like to be part of the community of awesome people who do just stick to being decent human beings but that that decency comes from all sides and that everyone tries at least to be compassionate and understand the other person and their desires aswell.
No more philosophical rants promise
Jagjaguwar
Sr Member
Ugh, I’m gutted for you. Not just because these things don’t come cheap, but because the excitement involved with tracking down a rare find like this was supposed to be is often palpable for the rest of us.
And selfishly, as someone who knows far less about Vader than you (though I’m sure you’ll downplay your own knowledge), it’s a bit alarming that such a deception could have been done so openly, on the Den of all places. It gives me pause about how one would ever know for sure whether something was the genuine article, or not. I suppose there’s some way to do so by consulting with trusted individuals, which I gather is how you found out about your mask in this case. Your case shows why it’s good that some details remain somewhat unknown publicly, I think.
Perhaps there’s some small consolation in the fact that yours is still a very impressive Vader collection, and was even before you’d acquired this piece.
Out of curiosity (and really, none of my business, but,) are you planning to keep searching for an SL, after this? And if so, would you keep this recast piece? I’m not asking to buy it, just curious- I know some would probably want to hang onto it regardless, while others would always feel an unpleasant sting when looking at it, and would be happy to be rid of it. I think I’d probably fall in the former camp, keeping it as sort of a reminder or a mark of progress, in the learning about all of this stuff. And something to display next to the genuine article, someday, to see if friends and casual observers could tell a difference.
And selfishly, as someone who knows far less about Vader than you (though I’m sure you’ll downplay your own knowledge), it’s a bit alarming that such a deception could have been done so openly, on the Den of all places. It gives me pause about how one would ever know for sure whether something was the genuine article, or not. I suppose there’s some way to do so by consulting with trusted individuals, which I gather is how you found out about your mask in this case. Your case shows why it’s good that some details remain somewhat unknown publicly, I think.
Perhaps there’s some small consolation in the fact that yours is still a very impressive Vader collection, and was even before you’d acquired this piece.
Out of curiosity (and really, none of my business, but,) are you planning to keep searching for an SL, after this? And if so, would you keep this recast piece? I’m not asking to buy it, just curious- I know some would probably want to hang onto it regardless, while others would always feel an unpleasant sting when looking at it, and would be happy to be rid of it. I think I’d probably fall in the former camp, keeping it as sort of a reminder or a mark of progress, in the learning about all of this stuff. And something to display next to the genuine article, someday, to see if friends and casual observers could tell a difference.
I’d say the $2,500 USD (for a finished SL) is vastly more affordable than $2,500,000 - $5,000,000 USD the screen used ANH helmet would fetch if it went up for auction.
...But that’s just me.
BIngo
@Darth Africanus
I get what you are saying man. But you are talking about props as if they were human rights or basic human needs. Props are commodities. You know me from Facebook and you see all the stuff I post about the inequality in the system and the economics and how I dont agree with a lot of the things our government does to strangle the working class. However these are props we are talking about.
What I'm reading is the equivalent of me saying: Well I've loved Lamborghinis my whole life. I have Fond memories of my youth talking to my dad about cars and admiring the engineering that goes in to a Lamborghini. Owning one would bring so much joy to my life and to so many other Lamborghini fans. Therefore I believe its wrong for them to only be owned by a small group and I think we should all be able to get one.
Chances are I'm never gonna own a Lamborghini and I'm ok with that. However I know that if I wanted it bad enough, I can focus my efforts in to it, and sure enough there will be a way for me to get one, even if it meant pre owned. But I'm not gonna judge those who worked hard to be able to get one, nor do I think its unfair that they have one and I dont.
You mentioned something about showing things we own and how that leads to jealousy. Also something about the community enjoying these props as a group that helps each other out. Well I think the problems stems from people not knowing how to be happy for someone else's accomplishments. Its like "well if he got it why cant I" instead of " what did he do that I wasn't doing, to achieve what we both wanted".
For example, When Mark CFO got his original ROTJ Stormtrooper helmet, literally at that very moment I had my finger on the bid now button. But that wasnt my focus or priority and I let it go, not knowing Mark was striking a deal for it on his end. I would have loved to get that helmet ( honestly who wouldn't), But I was Happy to see my friend get it. I wasnt jealous. It very deservedly went to the one guy in this hobby who should have gotten it. I cant go at it thinking "well damn, everyone in the hobby should be able to get an original Trooper helmet".
Maybe we should all learn to be decent and honest to each other, feel happy for our fellow collectors accomplishments and work harder for the things we desire.
I get what you are saying man. But you are talking about props as if they were human rights or basic human needs. Props are commodities. You know me from Facebook and you see all the stuff I post about the inequality in the system and the economics and how I dont agree with a lot of the things our government does to strangle the working class. However these are props we are talking about.
What I'm reading is the equivalent of me saying: Well I've loved Lamborghinis my whole life. I have Fond memories of my youth talking to my dad about cars and admiring the engineering that goes in to a Lamborghini. Owning one would bring so much joy to my life and to so many other Lamborghini fans. Therefore I believe its wrong for them to only be owned by a small group and I think we should all be able to get one.
Chances are I'm never gonna own a Lamborghini and I'm ok with that. However I know that if I wanted it bad enough, I can focus my efforts in to it, and sure enough there will be a way for me to get one, even if it meant pre owned. But I'm not gonna judge those who worked hard to be able to get one, nor do I think its unfair that they have one and I dont.
You mentioned something about showing things we own and how that leads to jealousy. Also something about the community enjoying these props as a group that helps each other out. Well I think the problems stems from people not knowing how to be happy for someone else's accomplishments. Its like "well if he got it why cant I" instead of " what did he do that I wasn't doing, to achieve what we both wanted".
For example, When Mark CFO got his original ROTJ Stormtrooper helmet, literally at that very moment I had my finger on the bid now button. But that wasnt my focus or priority and I let it go, not knowing Mark was striking a deal for it on his end. I would have loved to get that helmet ( honestly who wouldn't), But I was Happy to see my friend get it. I wasnt jealous. It very deservedly went to the one guy in this hobby who should have gotten it. I cant go at it thinking "well damn, everyone in the hobby should be able to get an original Trooper helmet".
Maybe we should all learn to be decent and honest to each other, feel happy for our fellow collectors accomplishments and work harder for the things we desire.
ggriffaw
Sr Member
Honestly I thought one of these authentic casts would cost more than that. Is that just the facemask?
ggriffaw
Sr Member
Assuming this was a recast of an authentic SL, I don't see how the secret details helped identity it as a recast. The recaster had all of the details to view first hand. There shouldn't have been any detail they didn't have access to. They just weren't precise enough with how they made the recast to fool people who know what the other authentic ones look like.
However if it was a recast of another recast that lacked some of those details, the secret details may have helped identify it.
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