Rey's terrible very bad Lightsaber skills: Star Wars

[AJTaliesen]

It's inaccurate to say that she's bad. The choreography is bad. But in universe it's accepted that she's very good.

Also, he's sort of right about the weight, but not entirely. You MIGHT fight rapier or foil style with it, just trying to get the touch, since a touch alone would damage, but you might also go for a heavier swing, since the blade isn't going to break and if they are holding it rapier style trying to get the touch and you swing for the fences, you're going to knock their saber right out of their hands, possibly even taking the hand as well (which happens).

You would also run into the problem that most movie fights face: the light block. Most fight choreography acts as though any contact with your weapon (or hand/arm in unarmed combat) immediately halts all attacks, no matter how much weight or strength was behind them. In reality, if little Arya uses Needle one handed to block an over hand long sword, it's not going to block the attack, it's going to drive Needle 6 inches into her own skull. But physics don't exist in movies and TV fights.

You'd have a similar problem with a light saber. If you're holding it one handed, just trying to get the touch, you would have a speed advantage, but if your opponent comes in with a heavy Darth Vader style swing, your saber wont stop his. His swing will just drive both sabers into your head. This also makes the fights in the OT make more sense than they seem. Vader isn't trying to kill Luke. But they do frequently lock and just push. That wouldn't make sense with a real sword, but it makes perfect sense with a lightsaber, to lock blades and just use your size to push the blades to your opponent. the twirly-twirly PT fights were mostly silly.

anyway, interesting video. Yes Reys choreography is garbage. I hate big mistakes in 100+ million dollar movies. Makes you think that some people worked hard, and at least 100 or more people got paid to eat donuts and not give a crud.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

 

[CWDevine]

View attachment 832791

I can fully admit that this part was ridiculous!! I remember holding my head when I saw it and thought, what's the point in this??? But still, this was supposed to be the last lightsaber fight seen in a SW film. I would guess Lucas decided to pull all of the tricks out of the bag, for what we all thought was a finale.

 

[Solo4114]

Like I said, I'm all for arguing that the fighting style should be more realistic. But there are a few things to consider:

1. We don't know how lightsabres work. We don't know if they feel the effects of gravity or physics, given that the blade is made of light or something along those lines. We don't even really know what the blade is. A focused sheath of plasma controlled within a magnetic field? Pure light? Who knows. We sure don't. We know what we see: they appear to have mass or at least feel the effects of gravity and have some kind of weight to them. They appear to be incredibly hot. Some armor seems to deflect them or at least to deflect glancing blows or blows which use only a little power. They also appear to be capable of locking against each other and deflecting another sabre blade. And...that's about it. That's all we know. We don't know if using more effort/strength in swinging the blade makes a meaningful difference in the effect on the target, or whether the nature of the target comes into play (e.g., metal vs. flesh vs. some kind of armor, etc.).

2. What makes good tactical and technical sense in real-world sword fighting or even in "sport" swordfighting like fencing or kendo or iaido doesn't necessarily look good. Again, consider the ANH Vader/Obi-Wan fight. An economy of movement, as I said. Very little overextension. Testing of guards, contained footwork, everything very grounded. But visually? Kinda...bland, especially for a general audience. And this has been true of cinematic swashbuckling at least as far back as Douglas Fairbanks, Sr. What works best in the real world is visually boring on film. Film is meant to be grand, broad, and full of flourish. Even in chanbara -- from which Lucas drew a lot of inspiration -- the fights are often still more cinematic than what you'd expect in the real world. Hell, the same is true of pick-your-kung-fu-movie.

So, again, complaints about "But it's not realistic!" strike me as much ado about nothing. No film featuring sword-fighting is "realistic" because what's realistic doesn't look cool. It's ALWAYS been about what looks cool, and there's a reason they call it "stage fighting" and not just "fighting."

 

[AJTaliesen]

So, again, complaints about "But it's not realistic!" strike me as much ado about nothing. No film featuring sword-fighting is "realistic" because what's realistic doesn't look cool. It's ALWAYS been about what looks cool, and there's a reason they call it "stage fighting" and not just "fighting."

You're right, but there is a point between "boring" and "ballet with a sword" that different for everyone. Some people are going to prefer more twirly-twirly, while others lean more towards realistic and it really is a personal taste thing, no matter how much it bothers some people that there's not one objective "good art"


For me, I like the balance that boxing movies found and have (mostly) stuck with. It's definitely exaggerated, but still grounded in real boxing. Possibly because most of the audience has seen a real boxing match and will know when it's garbage.

I have trouble with a lot of brawls in movies, having been in real fights I know how rare it is for people to swing, then wait because it's your turn to swing, like they do in Star Trek.

For me, most of the overly acrobatic stuff is a bridge too far.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

Why does Luke spin?

Like his father before him, Luke obviously believes in the Jedi truism “...I’ll try spinning! That’s a good trick!” (Anakin Skywalker—Episode One)

Sorry, but there's been goofy swordplay going on since ESB when Luke first did his little spin move.

Go to 1:10 or so in this video to see what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgyitSlMtMY

When Luke spins like that, why not just stab him in the back?

And the prequels...my God...the prequels... Spins and twirls and flips and more twirls and more spins, mid-air cartwheels, etc., etc., etc.

None of it makes a lick of sense from a sword-fighting perspective. As I recall, their stunt coordinator incorporated a variety of techniques, including tennis and axe throwing. Hell, Qui-Gon basically plays racquetball with blaster bolts in the first film.

The only sword duel that made any sense was the one that was the least visually impressive: Obi-Wan and Vader in ANH. They keep their footwork contained, they keep their centers of gravity mostly above their feet, they rarely get off balance or overextend, and it's all an economy of movement waiting for an opening. One which doesn't come until Obi-Wan lets himself get killed.

Every duel since then has been entirely focused on cinematics and visual pizazz rather than good sword-fighting technique. At this point, it's just part of the franchise as a whole, so nitpicking about this or that individual character's bad sword-fighting skills seems like just an excuse to complain about the character on what has become a non-issue in the films.

 

[JPH]

Light sabers may have weightless blades but jedi and sith use the force with their sabers. Vader is robotic, stronger than the average person, when Jedi and Sith use lightsabers they are chanelling the Force through/with it, not just muscling it.

In the Dark Forces games, the only weapon you couldn't Force pull out of someone's hand was a lightsaber. When you got really good, you could throw a twirling lightsaber and clear a room. There was even a code, like "RealSaberCombat" where you could cut limbs off! So, you arent just carrying around a grip with a weightless blade. There are also different stances bases on your combat style, but people are trying to defend the ability of someone with no training. The Disney orphan, noob defeats the seasoned masters. Puh-lease.

**breaks out popcorn to see how people who like tlj will contort this observation to explain Rey's insta-mastry**

 

[Solo4114]

You're right, but there is a point between "boring" and "ballet with a sword" that different for everyone. Some people are going to prefer more twirly-twirly, while others lean more towards realistic and it really is a personal taste thing, no matter how much it bothers some people that there's not one objective "good art"


For me, I like the balance that boxing movies found and have (mostly) stuck with. It's definitely exaggerated, but still grounded in real boxing. Possibly because most of the audience has seen a real boxing match and will know when it's garbage.

I have trouble with a lot of brawls in movies, having been in real fights I know how rare it is for people to swing, then wait because it's your turn to swing, like they do in Star Trek.

For me, most of the overly acrobatic stuff is a bridge too far.

I hear you. And yes, it's entirely an individual line.

Cinematic fights are almost never realistic. I mean, admittedly, they can go too far. The 4th Die Hard movie had people surviving all manner of physical punishment in ways that simply broke believability. I'm talking, like, jumping out of a helicopter that is flying above a telephone pole and landing in a crouch with no damage at all or being hit by a car moving at at least 30mph and being able to keep fighting. Most movie fistfights don't remotely include the amount of damage that gets done, and people keep fighting at full strength for ages or bounce back extremely quickly. Fatigue is never a factor in cinematic combat, either, unless it's for dramatic purpose. Guns don't run out of bullets. People rack shotguns and chamber rounds in semi-auto pistols when they should already have a round in the chamber and it's done entirely for dramatic effect. We have a whole thread here about "Things you hate in movies" chock full of examples.

All I'm saying is that zeroing in on Rey and her technique specifically is part of an overall trend where if Rey does it, it sucks, buuuuuuuut we conveniently ignore or excuse anything done by previous characters.

Why does Luke spin?

Like his father before him, Luke obviously believes in the Jedi truism “...let’s try spinning! That’s a good trick!” (Anakin Skywalker—Episode One)

Ok, this literally made me laugh out loud. Well played!

 

[wildething]

canon explanation of light sabers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fmdxQ23s0s

 

[mattycsi]

Sorry, but there's been goofy swordplay going on since ESB when Luke first did his little spin move.

Go to 1:10 or so in this video to see what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgyitSlMtMY

When Luke spins like that, why not just stab him in the back?

Luke's spin at the 1:10 mark is a direct result of his over swing of the saber. It is easier for him to follow the momentum round, similar to a round/turning kick in martial arts/MMA, sometime you over shoot, particularly if you were expecting contact. It's quicker and more stable to follow it round than try and stop and re centre.
As he makes that move, Vader blocks and his saber is out of position but he immediately does go for the attack while Luke's back is turned, he is just fast enough to meet it.
Seriously, watch it slowed down, makes perfect sense.

 

[jedi573]

I’m not sure I agree with the idea that the sword blades have no weight. Everything about the fencing suggests they do. George Lucas and Mark Hamill said the original direction was that they were heavy: “Excalibur”-like per Mark. They also don’t cut through stuff with no resistance. In The Phantom Menace, when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are dispatching the robots in the hanger in their escape from Naboo, their swords push the robots sideways as they strike.

But I think it’s mostly reasonable to say it like this: it’s fantasy. If it were realistic, it wouldn’t be entertaining. Anakin wouldn’t have become Darth Vader. He would have been paralyzed from hitting his spine against a rock wall in Attack of the Clones when Dooku did his Force magic on him. :lol

 

[kristen jones]

I can fully admit that this part was ridiculous!! I remember holding my head when I saw it and thought, what's the point in this??? But still, this was supposed to be the last lightsaber fight seen in a SW film. I would guess Lucas decided to pull all of the tricks out of the bag, for what we all thought was a finale.

FWIW this is THE exact scene I was referring to.

Regardless what you think of Rey's technique... it doesn't come close to the absurdity of this.

 

[kristen jones]

The Disney orphan, noob defeats the seasoned masters. Puh-lease.

**breaks out popcorn to see how people who like tlj will contort this observation to explain Rey's insta-mastry**

The degrading monikers aside, Rey has yet to face a "Seasoned Master" in lightsaber combat. Her only opponent one-on-one with a lightsaber thusfar was Kylo Ren, and he was FAR from a "seasoned master"...in fact his level of training was likely only slightly above Rey's in terms of practical combat. I reckon that's why Snoke decided it was time to up his training after his defeat by Rey (nevermind the fact he actually faced first Chewy's blaster bolt, then Finn AND Rey... so he's still pretty tough, considering).

 

[JPH]

The degrading monikers aside, Rey has yet to face a "Seasoned Master" in lightsaber combat. Her only opponent one-on-one with a lightsaber thusfar was Kylo Ren, and he was FAR from a "seasoned master"...in fact his level of training was likely only slightly above Rey's in terms of practical combat. I reckon that's why Snoke decided it was time to up his training after his defeat by Rey (nevermind the fact he actually faced first Chewy's blaster bolt, then Finn AND Rey... so he's still pretty tough, considering).

The Praetorian guards weren't seasoned? So, Snoke surrounded himself Edit : with new guys...that explains the one guard who had a clear shot at Rey but aimed wayyyyy tooooo high. I thought it was just bad choreography.

Did I mention tlj is about two incompetent groups?

Kylo deflects blasters with his lightsaber...that is pretty durned seasoned. He freezes blaster bolts in mid air. As if that doesnt take any training. Kylo *did* actually have sometraining from a jedi.

There is no equivalency. I know people keep trying to find one, but there absolutely is none. Even Luke had some Kenobi training on the Falcon and got zapped. But not Rey, she can out force Pull Kylo without ever having force pulled anything. Sheesh.

Absolutely no equivalence. None...nada...ziltch...

Kylo had just killed his dad when Chewie shot him. Maybe just a teeny bit distracted.

 

[JPH]

I’m not sure I agree with the idea that the sword blades have no weight. Everything about the fencing suggests they do. George Lucas and Mark Hamill said the original direction was that they were heavy: “Excalibur”-like per Mark. They also don’t cut through stuff with no resistance. In The Phantom Menace, when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are dispatching the robots in the hanger in their escape from Naboo, their swords push the robots sideways as they strike.

But I think it’s mostly reasonable to say it like this: it’s fantasy. If it were realistic, it wouldn’t be entertaining. Anakin wouldn’t have become Darth Vader. He would have been paralyzed from hitting his spine against a rock wall in Attack of the Clones when Dooku did his Force magic on him. :lol

Jedi have more health than the average person. They leap straight up several stories, fall huge distances because they "use the Force." Can survive beibg hit by lightning.

None of us can do that. Normals in the Star Wars galaxy cant do that. If they were just ordinary, then they wouldnt be jedi. This isnt the Watchmen, where anyone can put on a costume, these are people trained from an early age to utilize a universal energy.

Sheesh, another false equivalency argument.

 

[Zuiun]

There is no equivalency. I know people keep trying to find one, but there absolutely is none. Even Luke had some Kenobi training on the Falcon and got zapped.

Given that we actually saw Rey have combat skills prior to ever touching a lightsaber, I'm far more willing to accept her competency than Luke's. We see Luke get only exactly one lesson with a lightsaber, and it's not even technically combat, but deflecting blaster bolts. Then Kenobi dies, and not once do we see Yoda offering combat training at all...

But somehow Luke manages to hold his own against Vader. Granted, Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke, so it could be argued that he starts off the duel by holding back. But it's also clear that he gets frustrated with not being able to easily best Luke, and so starts pulling out other tricks in order to corner Luke. And by Jedi, with no one at all to train him, Luke is essentially Vader's equal in combat.

The point is, however, this is a farm boy. We never got any evidence whatsoever that he had any fighting skills at all. Yet he manages to do pretty well for himself with a lightsaber.

The Force Awakens, on the other hand, clearly establishes that Rey has had to fend for herself and knows how to fight. I'd buy her being able to hold her own against an emotionally compromised, wounded, and relatively inexperienced Kylo Ren over Luke being able to give a well-seasoned Sith Lord a hard time.

 

[JPH]

Rey waa using a staff, not a sword. Two different weapons.

Recycled argument. If Rey had used a sword and did similar moves before hand...*then excusable*, but she didnt, she used a staff. Take a sword class, take a staff class, they are different.

False equivalency

Vader wasnt trying to kill Luke. BINGO!

The point is, Luke had training. As fot Kylo...you all dont think Leia's son didnt get craploads of training?

Denial.

Seriously? Talk about disingenuous. No amount of evidence is enough. I hope you folks are getting great Disney perks!

And no on remembers Yoda with the younglings. So, was he training them? It sure looks like it.

 

[CWDevine]

FWIW this is THE exact scene I was referring to.

Regardless what you think of Rey's technique... it doesn't come close to the absurdity of this.

Even though the scene IS ridiculous, a newbie training with a lightsaber, should NEVER attempt to do something even close to this. 'The Force' gives your actions accuracy and Rey just got her feet wet, in regards to understanding the ways of 'The Force'. As I said before, the Ani Vs Obi lightsaber fight was supposed to be the very last one seen in a SW film. Clearly, Lucas decided to go all out because, it was supposed to be an epic finale.

 

[Zuiun]

Recycled argument. If Rey had used a sword and did similar moves before hand...*then excusable*, but she didnt, she used a staff. Take a sword class, take a staff class, they are different.

False equivalency

Soooo.... then either your false equivalency argument is being trotted out solely because you dislike Rey, or you would just as equally argue against Luke's odd proficiency in an X-wing despite never have flown such an advanced fighter before. Because if general experience growing up fighting means there's no way Rey could possibly stand a chance with a lightsaber, then Luke's experience with speeders shouldn't have prevented him from crashing and burning in an advanced military fighter.

I mean, if you're issue is just with Rey, that's fine. But literally the entire Star Wars franchise is built around characters performing well outside of their experiences. So either it's good across the board or it isn't. Can't have it both ways.

 

[CWDevine]

Soooo.... then either your false equivalency argument is being trotted out solely because you dislike Rey, or you would just as equally argue against Luke's odd proficiency in an X-wing despite never have flown such an advanced fighter before. Because if general experience growing up fighting means there's no way Rey could possibly stand a chance with a lightsaber, then Luke's experience with speeders shouldn't have prevented him from crashing and burning in an advanced military fighter.

I mean, if you're issue is just with Rey, that's fine. But literally the entire Star Wars franchise is built around characters performing well outside of their experiences. So either it's good across the board or it isn't. Can't have it both ways.