Prometheus (Post-release)

[CB2001]

True. But they will all be compared to him.


Kevin

I never heard anyone compare Picard to Kirk, Sisko to Kirk or even Janeway to Kirk (let alone Sisko to Picard, or Janeway to Sisko, and every other possible iteration of comparisons). If anything, I've always heard the "which is better, Kirk or Picard" argument.

 

[SSgt Burton]

I fail to see how my musing about this film have stirred such a fire in you. :rolleyes

First you felt the need to point out I had answered my own question about the Prometheus. Yes thank you, I did understand that I was answering my own question when I composed that post three months ago. I was talking aloud about how I felt about the ship. Perhaps you missed the point of those two paragraphs. It was about me rationalizing my suspension of disbelief within the context of the Alien universe.

Now about Shaw. I didn't care for the character. I cared about Ripley. This is why Shaw was no Ripley "for me." There were ceratin aspects of Shaw's character that did not jive with how my way of thinking about how Life, the Universe and Everything works. So I didn't like her.

Considering she is the lead of the film, that is a disappointment "for me."


Kevin

 

[CB2001]

I fail to see how my musing about this film have stirred such a fire in you. :rolleyes

You actually think I have fire in me and that your musing stirred it? Here I was thinking we were actually having a calm discussion. :cool

Now about Shaw. I didn't care for the character. I cared about Ripley. This is why Shaw was no Ripley "for me." There were ceratin aspects of Shaw's character that did not jive with how my way of thinking about how Life, the Universe and Everything works. So I didn't like her.

Considering she is the lead of the film, that is a disappointment "for me."

Okay then. But what was it about Ripley that made you care about her, and what is it about Shaw that makes you not care about her?

 

[SSgt Burton]

You actually think I have fire in me and that your musing stirred it? Here I was thinking we were actually having a calm discussion.

On my end it just seemed confrontational. If you had just asked why I didn't like Shaw to begin with, I would have responded less defensively.

But what was it about Ripley that made you care about her

Ripley... Well the Ripley character was more or less my introduction to a strong female lead who was not a superhero (like Wonder Woman) and was also not some kind of man hating feminist.

I think in some documentary (perhaps in the Quadrilogy) Ripley was described as going through three stages over the first 3 films- "Survivor" (ALIEN), "Leader" (Aliens) and "Martyr" (Alien3). (Surely I'm remembering this a little differently than it was actually described, however this is the jist I took from it).

Basically ALIEN is Ripley's introduction, Aliens is about her being a leader/Mother and in A3 she meets her demise, sacrificing herself to protect mankind. A fitting end to this great character.

(Alien Resurrection doesn't exist to me. )

what is it about Shaw that makes you not care about her?

Her belief system. I have to leave it at that. If she had been written like the Holloway character (and his thoughts on religion) I would have been much more "invested" in Shaw.

Like I said, it was that the Shaw character in the film didn't mesh with how "I" believe the universe works.


Kevin

 

[Art Andrews]

Now about Shaw. I didn't care for the character. I cared about Ripley. This is why Shaw was no Ripley "for me." There were ceratin aspects of Shaw's character that did not jive with how my way of thinking about how Life, the Universe and Everything works. So I didn't like her.

Considering she is the lead of the film, that is a disappointment "for me.

Kevin, I think you are actually in the majority on this. I, however, am at the polar opposite. I can't stand Ripley and LOVED Shaw. Shaw was a big factor in why I liked Prometheus because she came across as a real person instead of a "chick with a dick" like Ripley does. Poorly written "strong" female characters who are only "strong" because they immitate male characters is the quickest way to turn me off and for me, that is all Ripley is. Shaw was strong because she was an overcomer, not simply because she was a cold heartless man-***** like Ripley. I know that is not the prevailing view and I get a lot of flak for it, but it is interesting just how opposing our views are on this matter.

 

[SSgt Burton]

Wow. I couldn't disagree more. Art I've read your thoughts on Shaw and Ripley before, but I don't know where this latest venom for Ripley comes from.

A chick with a dick? Really?

At no time did I ever get the impression that Ripley was either a man hater, a she hulk or "smarter than all the dumb-dumb men she has to protect."

In Alien she is harrassed by Parker and Brett and tells them to eff off as anyone with half a backbone should (they were dragging their asses after all). She comes off to me as someone who wants to do their job and follow the rules (locking out Kane, Dallas and Parker and complaining to Dallas about Ash breaking quarantine and being in charge of taking care of Kane).

Dallas may have had more charisma, but to me Ripley was his foil and the voice of reason up until he was killed.

After which she herself is nearly killed by Ash (in a twisted "rape" scene) and has to be rescued by Parker.

Another positive aspect of the Ripley character was that she was not the typical B-movie horror film female lead who lines are few and far between screams that could shatter glass (ala Jamie Lee Curtis in "Halloween" or Heather Langenkamp in "A Nightmare on Elm St" ).


In Aliens she is someone going through survivor guilt, suffering from PTSD, and the loss of her child. She just wants to hide away, but chooses to go on the mission to face her inner demons. Not because "Men are idiots and need me there."

Again she hangs back allowing the mission to play out until essentially there is the "I told you so" moment when all hell breaks loose in the hive, Gorman goes to pieces, and Ripley does what she thinks is best (mind you the transaxle will never be the same ).

From there on she is once again the "voice of reason" stating the obvious (Take off and nuke the site from orbit), while Hicks is in charge. Hicks more or less calls the shots throught the film thereafter (not a case of her becoming the token basketball coach... "Alright people this is what we're going to do!") until he himself is taken out of action.

Oh and again she has to be rescued from the facehugger.


A3... again she is reluctant to take on the role of leadership until she understands she has no choice. This time around the alien is probably the least of her worries, being surrounded by rapists and murderers.

And she has to be rescued by the male lead from a gang rape.

Once she realizes she has been impregnated she really has nothing to lose, and can take on the alien knowing it won't fight back.


Maybe I'm missing your point?


What I will give you is that she was written as the she hulk in Alien Resurrection- pretty much all the stereotypical anti-male rhetoric you mentioned. Which is one of many reasons I couldn't stand A:Res.


I doubt anything I just said will alter your opnion though- that was pretty... blunt to put it mildly. :wacko :lol




Kevin

 

[Jeyl]

Shaw was a big factor in why I liked Prometheus because she came across as a real person instead of a "chick with a dick" like Ripley does. Poorly written "strong" female characters who are only "strong" because they immitate male characters is the quickest way to turn me off and for me, that is all Ripley is. Shaw was strong because she was an overcomer, not simply because she was a cold heartless man-***** like Ripley. I know that is not the prevailing view and I get a lot of flak for it, but it is interesting just how opposing our views are on this matter.

You should get flack for it Art because all you're doing is implying that a character who acts competently in a crises is somehow a male only trait. I've gone to school from kindergarden through high school, and I can tell you I've met many female teachers who are just like Ripley, some even more colder and stern than she was. Not once did I ever think "Wow, she's totally trying to come off as a dude".

This is all you ever say about Ripley, but you never explain why or give any examples to support your argument. What are you basing this "male imitation" thing on anyways? Is it because she follows the rules? Is it because she told Parker to shut up? Is it because she happens to be one of the more professional crew members working on the ship? Or is it simply because she doesn't have sex with any of the male characters?

And she wasn't cold-hearted either. Remember Jones the Cat? She didn't go "fu** the cat, I'm out of here" like a cold person would do. She went looking for him. And what about Newt? She was willing to go through hell all alone just to save her. Even James Cameron added a little scene before she sets out to get Newt where she and Hicks exchange their first names with each other. A very nice tender moment between two people who actually care.

 

[NAZGÛL]

Ripley is a classic male hero with a bra. Shaw isnt. Ripley could have been replaced with a male actor.

 

[crabra comander]

Ripley is a classic male hero with a bra. Shaw isnt. Ripley could have been replaced with a male actor.

Yeah...but then the back and forth between Hicks would've been...weird.

The motherly attributes. Really, it was about being a good mother and Ripley was good and the Alien Queen was Honey Boo Boo's mom...

And the gang rape in prison...well, actually that would have been the same:lol

 

[SSgt Burton]

Ripley is a classic male hero with a bra. Shaw isnt. Ripley could have been replaced with a male actor.

Yeah ummm.... Picture a male actor in the "rape" scene with Ash.



I'm still not getting how Ripley is "manish" and Shaw isn't. Is it because Shaw had a boyfriend?

This isn't meant as sarcasm- I truly don't get.

I'd also like some examples of Ripley being "heartless."




Kevin

 

[Jeyl]

Ripley is a classic male hero with a bra.

That's... almost shockingly offensive. Never mind the fact that that gender is irrelevant in Alien (A male human gets impregnated), you still give no reason as to why the portrayal of Ripley is a down side. It can switched with a male character, so what? I can change Shaw into a male character and I wouldn't have to change much of anything in the story.

 

[SSgt Burton]

If anyone wants an example of a female role that could have been replaced with a male actor, Vasquez fits best. She truly was "manish." They even played this up with Hudson "mistaken for a man" line.


Does anyone believe that Vasquez and Ripley are interchangable?



Kevin

 

[NAZGÛL]

 

[Jeyl]

 

[Art Andrews]

Kevin,

I know I am in the minority on this one... maybe even the only one... but I just absolutely cannot stand her character and every time I watch an Aliens movie, I dislike her more.

Don't mistake my dislike for Ripley as a dislike of female characters who aren't just hot bodies, waiting to be rescued. Those annoy me just as much.

As with so many things, the answer to a worthless female character who only serves as the prize or the princess to be rescued is not a heartless, butch Ripley character... at least not for me. I feel like that is jumping from one ditch to the other and sets you up for a completely unsympathetic character. Do any of you guys EVER feel anything for Ripley, and if so, what is generating that? I know I don't. I don't feel for her or register with her on any level and while it is only my opinion, I feel like it is because she is written like a dude (I know the story about her character being written as gender-neutral, but it doesn't feel neutral to me).

You have probably seen me write about this before, but so that I am not just repeating myself on Shaw (whom so many seem to undervalue), I would point to Judge Anderson from Dredd 3D. To me, that is about as perfect a female character as I have ever seen written. She is not a man. She doesn't try to be a man or try to match the overly testosterone driven character of Dredd. She is clearly different than him and not as physically imposing as him and yet she is not any less than him in any of her capabilities and in some ways, she trumps him (the scene in which Dredd fails to get information from Kay and Anderson easily takes it from him, leaving him a quivering mess was one of the very best scenes of the movie. Any deficiency on Anderson's part comes from her inexperience, never her sex and that is AWESOME! That is a badass woman character... not some silly "Leave her alone, you *****" Rambo-wannabe silliness.

One thing we can both agree on... Aliens 4 was just wretched, but I think aspects of the over-the-top character you see there are peaking out through the previous 3 movies.

Wow. I couldn't disagree more. Art I've read your thoughts on Shaw and Ripley before, but I don't know where this latest venom for Ripley comes from .

A chick with a dick? Really?

At no time did I ever get the impression that Ripley was either a man hater, a she hulk or "smarter than all the dumb-dumb men she has to protect."

In Alien she is harrassed by Parker and Brett and tells them to eff off as anyone with half a backbone should (they were dragging their asses after all). She comes off to me as someone who wants to do their job and follow the rules (locking out Kane, Dallas and Parker and complaining to Dallas about Ash breaking quarantine and being in charge of taking care of Kane).

Dallas may have had more charisma, but to me Ripley was his foil and the voice of reason up until he was killed.

After which she herself is nearly killed by Ash (in a twisted "rape" scene) and has to be rescued by Parker.

Another positive aspect of the Ripley character was that she was not the typical B-movie horror film female lead who lines are few and far between screams that could shatter glass (ala Jamie Lee Curtis in "Halloween" or Heather Langenkamp in "A Nightmare on Elm St" ).


In Aliens she is someone going through survivor guilt, suffering from PTSD, and the loss of her child. She just wants to hide away, but chooses to go on the mission to face her inner demons. Not because "Men are idiots and need me there."

Again she hangs back allowing the mission to play out until essentially there is the "I told you so" moment when all hell breaks loose in the hive, Gorman goes to pieces, and Ripley does what she thinks is best (mind you the transaxle will never be the same ).

From there on she is once again the "voice of reason" stating the obvious (Take off and nuke the site from orbit), while Hicks is in charge. Hicks more or less calls the shots throught the film thereafter (not a case of her becoming the token basketball coach... "Alright people this is what we're going to do!") until he himself is taken out of action.

Oh and again she has to be rescued from the facehugger.


A3... again she is reluctant to take on the role of leadership until she understands she has no choice. This time around the alien is probably the least of her worries, being surrounded by rapists and murderers.

And she has to be rescued by the male lead from a gang rape.

Once she realizes she has been impregnated she really has nothing to lose, and can take on the alien knowing it won't fight back.


Maybe I'm missing your point?


What I will give you is that she was written as the she hulk in Alien Resurrection- pretty much all the stereotypical anti-male rhetoric you mentioned. Which is one of many reasons I couldn't stand A:Res.


I doubt anything I just said will alter your opnion though- that was pretty... blunt to put it mildly. :wacko :lol




Kevin

 

[Art Andrews]

You should get flack for it Art because all you're doing is implying that a character who acts competently in a crises is somehow a male only trait. I've gone to school from kindergarden through high school, and I can tell you I've met many female teachers who are just like Ripley, some even more colder and stern than she was. Not once did I ever think "Wow, she's totally trying to come off as a dude".

This isn't even close to a question of competence so let's not twist my feelings into something they aren't. :facepalm

Competency isn't a male trait. It is the trait of a leader and I can't argue that Ripley was definitely written with leadership traits.

This is all you ever say about Ripley, but you never explain why or give any examples to support your argument. What are you basing this "male imitation" thing on anyways? Is it because she follows the rules? Is it because she told Parker to shut up? Is it because she happens to be one of the more professional crew members working on the ship? Or is it simply because she doesn't have sex with any of the male characters?

Again... :facepalm

You don't have to agree with me, but let's not pretend this is an anti-female thing or that I am saying only men have positive attributes.

 

[Art Andrews]

Jeyl, I think you are missing the point of NAZGÛL's comparison (funny that he and I made the same one within posts of one another).

Rambo is the extreme end of a testosterone-driven ALL male character... actually, I shouldn't say "character" but caricature. He isn't realistic in any way (at least not in the 2nd or third movies) but is a symbol of all the encompasses being a brutish, macho character. In many ways, especially in Aliens, Ripley IS the same.

I feel that once again, whether you agree or not, you are trying to twist this into some type of anti-female sentiment...

 

[Art Andrews]

If anyone wants an example of a female role that could have been replaced with a male actor, Vasquez fits best. She truly was "manish." They even played this up with Hudson "mistaken for a man" line.


Does anyone believe that Vasquez and Ripley are interchangable?



Kevin

Kevin, I don't see Ripley exactly the same as Vasquez was extremely over the top, but I absolutely DO see them in a similar light.

 

[Art Andrews]

the Alien Queen was Honey Boo Boo's mom...

I think we can shut down the internet on that comparison. I have now seen it all! :lol

 

[Art Andrews]

Yeah ummm.... Picture a male actor in the "rape" scene with Ash.

I understand the pseudo-sexual nature of that scene, but I don't know that it would have been any less horrifying if Ash had been cramming a magazine down a guy's throat. That has got to be an extremely unpleasant way to go no matter what plumbing you have.

I'm still not getting how Ripley is "manish" and Shaw isn't. Is it because Shaw had a boyfriend?

A boyfriend? Nope. Had nothing at all to do with Shaw's appeal as a character. And weren't Ripley and Dallas more or less together in some way... friends with benefits at the very least? Didn't make Ripley any more appealing.

While I would have to spend a lot more time than I have to go through it and really give a detailed example (and at some point I just might to justify my stance), how you could see Shaw and Ripley as even being remotely the same is a mystery to me. They are night and day different. Hmmm... think it is time to throw in the trilogy (ignoring Aliens 4 as we all know we should ).