Maybe we should read this then discuss. Frankenberry, N.K., ed.: The Faith of Scientists: In Their Own Words.
Prometheus (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
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crabra comander
Master Member
Yeah...there are definitely still scientists that have faith in the unknown. Jeyl, you're painting a pretty broad picture of scientists all twisting up their noses at the thought of simply believing in the unknown.
:lol I respect the survivor instinct in both charcters, very much, and I think that probably plays a little into my love for Shaw and a piece of my distaste for Ripley. While I know it might seem a little silly to say considering we are talking about a perfect killing machine, but I don't get the same feeling of despair and overcoming in Ripley as I do in Shaw. Shaw is not self-confident and self-assured. There is no arrogance in her at all. Many of you seem to have a more sympathetic view towards Ripley but from my POV, Ripley didn't lose very much in ALIEN nor does she have a very big character arc. On the other hand, Shaw lost all that she held dear and yet she picked up and carried on, did not lose her faith, and was able to do things that were nothing short of absolutely incredible (the c-section scene). Again, I may not be putting it into words very well, but when the chips were down, Shaw reached way down inside herself and pulled out what she needed to survive, while Ripley always has a brash, tough as nails attitude that seemed more like she had something to prove, so when trouble comes, she doesn't change that much. She is naturally afraid of it but that isn't a male of female trait. The alien IS terrifying! But Ripley doesn't really change in ALIEN.
You know what is funny? While I have not an ounce of care of sympathy for Ripley, I do for Sarah. I feel very sorry for her and it is very clear why she is the way she is. It is unfortunate that she chose the path she did, but it is clearly one to protect herself and to do what she needed to do to accomplish what she felt she must. She is a tragic character.
SSgt Burton
Sr Member
Well I'm out of this discussion.
I truly have no clue what you're talking about.
Kevin
Rewatching it tonight (if I can get the Bluray on my PC to work). Who knows, after all you guys have written, I might see Ripley in a completely new light.
I think the key issue to remember with the whole Ripley/Shaw debate is that in the original Alien Ripley was written as a male character. The roles gender was deliberately changed very late in the writing process so to wrong foot the audience into guessing who would survive. Up until "Alien" most female characters had unfortunately small roles, and, as is common in most horror and sci fi, tended to exit the script rather nastily, or just survive ,rescued by the hero.
Alien inverted that recurring stereotyping and very successfully. Sigourney was cast specifically because she looked like a woman who could hold her own on what was basically a tug and oil refinery in space and tough it out and give orders to a hard ,mostly male ,crew.She was hired because of her striking "amazonian" appearance, her strong voice and direct approach. It was great casting AND acting on Sigourneys part that made Ripley such a stand out lead role for women characters going forward in cinema. Terminator I and II's Sarah Connor exploited that trait, James Camerons leading ladies can kick asses with the best of them.
Shaw is an academic , used to discussing and sharing information, not "ordering" people to do or else. Look at how she gets Janek to sacrifice himself and the Prometheus. She appeals to his strengths and his courage, she doesn't directly order him to "Ram it now!" . She must have vast reserves of mental strength ( rather than physical , I'd can certainly see Ripley with an axe giving the Engineer a split skull but not Shaw) to have survived all the tragedy in her life.
As female characters go she is perhaps , the reverse of Ripley, yet just as capable of dealing with what the script throws at her. Yet both are hugely appealing women and it is, like most things in life, really all a matter of personal choice in the end. I'd be happy to spend time in the company of either of them , though I'll admit to a definite fondness for Ripley (and Sigourney) based purely and in no little part on her ability to blast lots of acid bleeding monsters into teeny tiny bits.
Alien inverted that recurring stereotyping and very successfully. Sigourney was cast specifically because she looked like a woman who could hold her own on what was basically a tug and oil refinery in space and tough it out and give orders to a hard ,mostly male ,crew.She was hired because of her striking "amazonian" appearance, her strong voice and direct approach. It was great casting AND acting on Sigourneys part that made Ripley such a stand out lead role for women characters going forward in cinema. Terminator I and II's Sarah Connor exploited that trait, James Camerons leading ladies can kick asses with the best of them.
Shaw is an academic , used to discussing and sharing information, not "ordering" people to do or else. Look at how she gets Janek to sacrifice himself and the Prometheus. She appeals to his strengths and his courage, she doesn't directly order him to "Ram it now!" . She must have vast reserves of mental strength ( rather than physical , I'd can certainly see Ripley with an axe giving the Engineer a split skull but not Shaw) to have survived all the tragedy in her life.
As female characters go she is perhaps , the reverse of Ripley, yet just as capable of dealing with what the script throws at her. Yet both are hugely appealing women and it is, like most things in life, really all a matter of personal choice in the end. I'd be happy to spend time in the company of either of them , though I'll admit to a definite fondness for Ripley (and Sigourney) based purely and in no little part on her ability to blast lots of acid bleeding monsters into teeny tiny bits.
NAZGÛL
Sr Member
Of course it isnt. In Aliens Ripley uses the same violent solution to the (Vietnam) situation.
Douglas Kellner is great to read if you are interested in putting movies into a broader cultural context.
Demetrios2177
Well-Known Member
You need facts that can be proven right or wrong by others. Here is a good example, from Carl Sagan's "Cosmos" series. It shows how Eratosthenes deduced from observation 2200 years ago, that the earth is a sphere, and how he calculated its circumference.
COSMOS: The Shores of the Cosmic Ocean (Part 4 - 6) - YouTube
And is Shaw that kind of scientist? No. She doesn't have faith in the unknown because there is nothing unknown about her beliefs. The Engineers created life on Earth? That must mean God created them. That's not faith in the unknown.
Like when she threatened to burn the Queen's eggs if she did not walk out of there with Newt? I don't recall Rambo giving the Vietnamese the same chance.
crabra comander
Master Member
I don't think we ever wanted to Nuke the Vietnamese...
CB2001
Master Member
They used Napalm instead.
The colony was lost and the only survivor is Newt. Do you really want to just leave the colony alone and infested for the company or some other transport to come on by the colony?
SSgt Burton
Sr Member
Okay this the last thing I will say here.
Everyone paints Ripley as a gun toting Rambo who "wants" to kick ass and take names.
What she is, is a woman who is suffering from post traumatic stress disorder after her ordeal aboard the Nostromo.
She constantly has nightmares that wake her up in a feverish sweat. She isolates herself on board Gateway station (partly because of her situation with the company inquest, but why not go back to Earth?). She just wants to hide away.
I can only liken this to a woman who is a rape survivor in which the rapist has threaten to kill her if she talked.
So this woman is constantly terrified. She essentially is afraid to go out in public. She can't sleep at night.
The police tell her they have caught the rapist and she needs to be a witness in the trial or he is going to walk.
She doesn't want to go because she is afraid that by helping put him away, it will only draw further attention to herself, and make him all the more motivated to kill her.
The police convince her to go, she does, but he only gets five years and his last words to her are a threat on her life.
So for five years she constantly lives under the shadow of this monster who will get out one day and hunt her down.
It will never be over for her until this man is dead.
This is who Ripley is before the mission. The Aliens are not just a threat to humanity to her, they represent her intense fear. A fear that prevents her from being able to sleep at night.
This is why she accepts the mission- because just like the woman who knows it won't be over until the rapist is dead, this is Ripley's chance to see that ALL the Aliens are wiped out. That not one single alien will come back to get her.
This is the motivation behind her single mindedness and "kill 'em all" attitude.
It is not because she is a tough ***** with something to prove. It is because she is anything BUT a tough *****. A tough *****, a REAL survivor would just move on with their lives, but Ripley can't because she has been traumatized. She HAS to see that they are all dead before she can go back to the person she was before the events on the Nostromo.
It is the whole point behind the closing lines between her and Newt-
Newt: "Can I dream?"
Ripley: "Yes honey. I think we both can."
Kevin
Everyone paints Ripley as a gun toting Rambo who "wants" to kick ass and take names.
What she is, is a woman who is suffering from post traumatic stress disorder after her ordeal aboard the Nostromo.
She constantly has nightmares that wake her up in a feverish sweat. She isolates herself on board Gateway station (partly because of her situation with the company inquest, but why not go back to Earth?). She just wants to hide away.
I can only liken this to a woman who is a rape survivor in which the rapist has threaten to kill her if she talked.
So this woman is constantly terrified. She essentially is afraid to go out in public. She can't sleep at night.
The police tell her they have caught the rapist and she needs to be a witness in the trial or he is going to walk.
She doesn't want to go because she is afraid that by helping put him away, it will only draw further attention to herself, and make him all the more motivated to kill her.
The police convince her to go, she does, but he only gets five years and his last words to her are a threat on her life.
So for five years she constantly lives under the shadow of this monster who will get out one day and hunt her down.
It will never be over for her until this man is dead.
This is who Ripley is before the mission. The Aliens are not just a threat to humanity to her, they represent her intense fear. A fear that prevents her from being able to sleep at night.
This is why she accepts the mission- because just like the woman who knows it won't be over until the rapist is dead, this is Ripley's chance to see that ALL the Aliens are wiped out. That not one single alien will come back to get her.
This is the motivation behind her single mindedness and "kill 'em all" attitude.
It is not because she is a tough ***** with something to prove. It is because she is anything BUT a tough *****. A tough *****, a REAL survivor would just move on with their lives, but Ripley can't because she has been traumatized. She HAS to see that they are all dead before she can go back to the person she was before the events on the Nostromo.
It is the whole point behind the closing lines between her and Newt-
Newt: "Can I dream?"
Ripley: "Yes honey. I think we both can."
Kevin
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Bingo. We have a winner.
I, obviously, lean more towards Shaw than Ripley, but I think this is a good summation of the two, especially Shaw. As CutThumb says, both are shown to be capable and as was said earlier, both are survivors. The difference is their approach and for me, one seems more "real" and one is not. I love that Shaw doesn't start from a place of strength. It gives her somewhere to go, so by the end of the story, when she decides to head to the engineer homeworld and even the way she talks to David, you can see she has grown and changed.
I would somewhat disagree with Sarah Connor being like Ripley or exploiting the same traits. I love Sarah because we see a massive arc in her character. She starts off as the typical Hollywood damsel in distress but changes and adapts, sadly, losing much of her humanity along the way, to be able to meet her situation. Like Shaw and Ripley, she becomes capable and is a survivor, but she takes a dark turn that perhaps is a bit more akin to Ripley, but still not quite the same. As I said earlier, Sarah is a tragic character to me when you look at the girl we meet at the beginning of T1 to the machine she becomes in T2. I wonder if Kyle would have been proud of her for doing what it takes to survive, much as he had to do in the future, or if he would be a little disappointed at what she ultimately became... one of the machines.
I, obviously, lean more towards Shaw than Ripley, but I think this is a good summation of the two, especially Shaw. As CutThumb says, both are shown to be capable and as was said earlier, both are survivors. The difference is their approach and for me, one seems more "real" and one is not. I love that Shaw doesn't start from a place of strength. It gives her somewhere to go, so by the end of the story, when she decides to head to the engineer homeworld and even the way she talks to David, you can see she has grown and changed.
I would somewhat disagree with Sarah Connor being like Ripley or exploiting the same traits. I love Sarah because we see a massive arc in her character. She starts off as the typical Hollywood damsel in distress but changes and adapts, sadly, losing much of her humanity along the way, to be able to meet her situation. Like Shaw and Ripley, she becomes capable and is a survivor, but she takes a dark turn that perhaps is a bit more akin to Ripley, but still not quite the same. As I said earlier, Sarah is a tragic character to me when you look at the girl we meet at the beginning of T1 to the machine she becomes in T2. I wonder if Kyle would have been proud of her for doing what it takes to survive, much as he had to do in the future, or if he would be a little disappointed at what she ultimately became... one of the machines.
NAZGÛL
Sr Member
You just said she was giving the aliens a peaceful chans. She obviosly never were.
You dont think Aliens is making Ripley deal with the bad guys the hard macho Rambo style?
Man, can you guys just stop, please? This discussion got awesome again and now I have to go pages back and catch up. Geeze. :lol
Me either...but lord, I do like her. It may have something to do with Noomi Rapace's Laplander cuteness admittedly; hey, I'm shallow. :lol
The script both provided and neutered the character's potential to be great; for me Rapace rose above it and was memorable. I look forward to seeing more of Shaw in sequels. Hopefully cementing the 'awesome' and discarding the 'wait, wat?'.
Well...she kind of projects that. Without being that; but it would be fair to say she's actively trying to project it a lot of the time, IMO. Game face on most of the time. So it is an understandable view.
Cameron likes to write quasi-feminist rhetoric into some of his films, but then again, he had to know how the 15yo boys in his audience were going to read that scene. Marketing capitalised on it along those lines.
I don't think you're wrong, but I do think the scene can be *both* things.
Me either...but lord, I do like her. It may have something to do with Noomi Rapace's Laplander cuteness admittedly; hey, I'm shallow. :lol
The script both provided and neutered the character's potential to be great; for me Rapace rose above it and was memorable. I look forward to seeing more of Shaw in sequels. Hopefully cementing the 'awesome' and discarding the 'wait, wat?'.
Well...she kind of projects that. Without being that; but it would be fair to say she's actively trying to project it a lot of the time, IMO. Game face on most of the time. So it is an understandable view.
Cameron likes to write quasi-feminist rhetoric into some of his films, but then again, he had to know how the 15yo boys in his audience were going to read that scene. Marketing capitalised on it along those lines.
I don't think you're wrong, but I do think the scene can be *both* things.
Yeah, but Ripley and the gang weren't trapped in the middle of a gawddang nest full of fresh eggs with xenos blocking every exit. Ripley knew that the Queen didn't want her eggs harmed so she took advantage of the Queen's ignorance that she and the eggs were going to die anyways.
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