Prometheus (Post-release)

[Art Andrews]

And is Shaw that kind of scientist? No. She doesn't have faith in the unknown because there is nothing unknown about her beliefs. The Engineers created life on Earth? That must mean God created them. That's not faith in the unknown.

You are jumping to conclusions and your bias is showing. It seemed very clear to me that Prometheus was specifically vague about Shaw's faith. She wears a cross, which is predominately seen as a Christian symbol today, but didn't originate with Christianity, nor is Christianity ever directly talked about in Prometheus. I think a cross was used simply out of convenience because it is so easily recognized and associated with faith, not to denote a particular viewpoint held by Shaw. She also never talks about "God" and only, like a scientist, asks questions, such as "if the Engineers created us, who created them?" Now that presupposes that for something to exist, it has to have been created instead of the presupposition that it mystically appeared from nothing, but again, scientists come up with theories like this all the time and their belief in them, when they cannot be proved IS an example of faith. Again, I am not arguing that Shaw is a great scientist, because she is horribly compromised, but her hypotheses aren't as unscientific as you are making it appear to be, especially considering (in the universe of ALIEN) that her hypothesis about the Engineers was correct. Is she right that someone else created the Engineers? Who knows. Maybe we will find out in Paradise.

 

[Art Andrews]

That is a very interesting analogy. I LOVE things like this, as it does make me look at these movies from a very different POV and even if I don't particularly agree, I will be watching the movies with fresh eyes and a fresh perspective.

Okay this the last thing I will say here.

Everyone paints Ripley as a gun toting Rambo who "wants" to kick ass and take names.


What she is, is a woman who is suffering from post traumatic stress disorder after her ordeal aboard the Nostromo.

She constantly has nightmares that wake her up in a feverish sweat. She isolates herself on board Gateway station (partly because of her situation with the company inquest, but why not go back to Earth?). She just wants to hide away.

I can only liken this to a woman who is a rape survivor in which the rapist has threaten to kill her if she talked.

So this woman is constantly terrified. She essentially is afraid to go out in public. She can't sleep at night.

The police tell her they have caught the rapist and she needs to be a witness in the trial or he is going to walk.

She doesn't want to go because she is afraid that by helping put him away, it will only draw further attention to herself, and make him all the more motivated to kill her.

The police convince her to go, she does, but he only gets five years and his last words to her are a threat on her life.

So for five years she constantly lives under the shadow of this monster who will get out one day and hunt her down.

It will never be over for her until this man is dead.


This is who Ripley is before the mission. The Aliens are not just a threat to humanity to her, they represent her intense fear. A fear that prevents her from being able to sleep at night.

This is why she accepts the mission- because just like the woman who knows it won't be over until the rapist is dead, this is Ripley's chance to see that ALL the Aliens are wiped out. That not one single alien will come back to get her.

This is the motivation behind her single mindedness and "kill 'em all" attitude.

It is not because she is a tough ***** with something to prove. It is because she is anything BUT a tough *****. A tough *****, a REAL survivor would just move on with their lives, but Ripley can't because she has been traumatized. She HAS to see that they are all dead before she can go back to the person she was before the events on the Nostromo.

It is the whole point behind the closing lines between her and Newt-

Newt: "Can I dream?"

Ripley: "Yes honey. I think we both can."



Kevin

 

[Art Andrews]

Man, can you guys just stop, please? This discussion got awesome again and now I have to go pages back and catch up. Geeze. :lol

Keep up. monkey-boy! This is the best discussion we have had since the film came out and everyone was in their initial uproar!!!

 

[crabra comander]

Both Ripley and Shaw had a full term Alien baby. Only Shaw survived, Rambo style, after cutting herself open and stitching herself back up. Way tougher than Ripley!

 

[SSgt Burton]

Okay this the last thing I will say here.

I lied. :lol

Me either...but lord, I do like her. It may have something to do with Noomi Rapace's Laplander cuteness admittedly; hey, I'm shallow. :lol

You're the best Martyn! Anyone ever tell you that? :lol :thumbsup

Well...she kind of projects that. Without being that; but it would be fair to say she's actively trying to project it a lot of the time, IMO. Game face on most of the time. So it is an understandable view.

I agree that she projects that in ALIEN about up until Ash attacks her. From there on she is a different person. It is as if her bubble of "I'm safe" and her confidence have been broken.

She has to sing herself a song in order to go through with killing the ALIEN.

(On the "get away from her" line)Cameron likes to write quasi-feminist rhetoric into some of his films, but then again, he had to know how the 15yo boys in his audience were going to read that scene. Marketing capitalised on it along those lines.

I don't think you're wrong, but I do think the scene can be *both* things.

I do see what you mean there that it can be both. While I'm sure you get what I mean about the motherly protective instinct Martyn, I'd like to illustrate this further-

There is a bit of a parallel scene in the 1982 SAS film "Who Dare Wins."

So to set the scene up- Terrorists have taken over the US Embassy in England and taken hostages. Part of their plan includes holding the wife and baby daughter of an SAS operative hostage in their home.

So the wife and baby are in the home held hostage at gun point. There "was" a policeman there to protect them, but he was easily overpowered. The SAS are in the next door apartment and plan to rescue them.

Eventually the long hours take their toll on both the hostages as well as the terrorists. The baby is constantly crying until the female terrorist can stand it no longer and demands the mother give the baby to her:

The scene I'm describing is here at the 1:50:00 mark-

The Final Option/Who Dares Wins (1982 Full Length Movie) - YouTube

So my point is that if you listen to the mother's line "DON'T YOU TOUCH HER!" it is delievered with the same ferocity as Ripley's "Get away from her" line. This is that primal "mother" instinct I was talking about. Here we have a woman who can easily be shot by the terrorists, but is willing to scratch, bite, claw you name it to protect her child. She isn't thinking rationally at all (because ultimately if the SAS didn't intervene, she WOULD have been killed along with her daughter), but she fights back anyway because it is what a mother does when their child is threatened.

This is what I think of the "Get away from her YOU *****!" scene- a mother willing to do whatever it takes to protect her child. The line comes out of Ripley's mouth with the perfect amount of venom! However unlike the mother in "Who Dares Wins" (who is truly helpless on her own), Ripley CAN fight the Queen with the assistance of the powerloader.



Kevin

 

[SSgt Burton]

Both Ripley and Shaw had a full term Alien baby. Only Shaw survived, Rambo style, after cutting herself open and stitching herself back up. Way tougher than Ripley!

A machine did that for her.

But in Ripley's case, even if she had one of those nifty auto-doctors she would not have gone though with removing the Queen-burster. She wanted to die to prevent the Queen from being born in order to protect mankind.

She was given the option to have the Queenburster surgically removed, but chose not to. Partly because the company isn't thinking of her best interests (so they wouldn't care if she died in the process of getting it out of her as long as they got their prized Xenomorph), but mostly because she knows the Queen cannot be allowed to live. And she sacrifices herself to protect humanity.

That takes a lot more guts I think.


Kevin

 

[Art Andrews]

Rewatching ALIEN now. Honestly, outside of Dallas, are ANY of these characters truly likable?

 

[Bryancd]

Rewatching ALIEN now. Honestly, outside of Dallas, are ANY of these characters truly likable?

I would counter are they meant to be?

 

[blipper]

(to Art)

I can't say I've ever felt it necessary to ask if the characters in Alien are likeable or not for the story to get under the skin, only relatable - and I believe they are.

 

[Art Andrews]

I would counter are they meant to be?

I am going to guess no, because they sure don't come across that way.

 

[Solo4114]

I think they were meant to be human and to seem like real people. People who do obnoxious stuff, but who can be likable in other moments.

 

[Jeyl]

Again, I am not arguing that Shaw is a great scientist, because she is horribly compromised, but her hypotheses aren't as unscientific as you are making it appear to be, especially considering (in the universe of ALIEN) that her hypothesis about the Engineers was correct.

But there's no reason for Shaw to come up with her "They created us" hypothesis with the evidence she has. The problem that this film does to itself and to the character of Shaw is that it gives us the answers to the Engineers right off the bat. We as the audience know that they created us, and Shaw has a firm belief that they created us as well for nonsensical reasons. Don't you think if they downplayed Shaw's belief that the engineers created us and instead have her discover those facts through the course of the movie that it would have actually made for a far more effective story arc for her?

 

[CutThumb]

Okay this the last thing I will say here.

What she is, is a woman who is suffering from post traumatic stress disorder after her ordeal aboard the Nostromo.

She constantly has nightmares that wake her up in a feverish sweat. She isolates herself on board Gateway station (partly because of her situation with the company inquest, but why not go back to Earth?). She just wants to hide away.

I can only liken this to a woman who is a rape survivor in which the rapist has threaten to kill her if she talked.

So this woman is constantly terrified. She essentially is afraid to go out in public. She can't sleep at night.

This is the motivation behind her single mindedness and "kill 'em all" attitude.


It is the whole point behind the closing lines between her and Newt-

Newt: "Can I dream?"

Ripley: "Yes honey. I think we both can."


Kevin

This is a very well thought out summary of Ripleys character arc in Aliens. I didn't put the quote in full but it deserves to be read by everyone. Great work SSgt!!
Projecting degrees of "toughness" is not exclusively to either sex. Getting people to do what you want is one of lifes hardest challenges, and the approach varies as frequently as the situation and characters involved.
If Ripley had been as really hard as she pretended ,she would have left the cat in Alien without a seconds hesitation and never investigated what had happened to Parker or Lambert after all that screaming over the ships speakers. She didn't. She strikes me as somebody who follows and adheres to the rules ( the rest of the film would not have happened if everyone had listened to her at the airlock), she was deeply shocked and felt terribly betrayed when she read the special order condemning the crew to death if necessary and barely escaped with her life by cooly thinking her way out of the crisis on the lifeboat. There is no need for me to add anymore about her if you read SSgt post in full.
At the end of the day its how any person, men and women, react under pressure, and in my experience I've been constantly surprised how, when push comes to shove,just how differently they can cope in a crisis. What water they draw from whatever well of strength often depends on ow deeply they have to dig into their lives and it often dictates their ability to survive in the face of daunting odds.Shaw and Ripley arguably both share and use a strong faith in themselves, their abilities and a determination to beat the odds but with quite different strategies.
Both of them did manage to save humanity by actions that might have cost them terribly. Remember Shaw willingly surrendered her chances of survival when she convinced Janek to crash the Prometheus, effectively isolating herself on the planet to die to save the human race. Ripley was willing to do exactly the same for Newt when she could have easily left her to that nuclear death. But she faced her purest demons like we all wish we could sometimes. If only life was so direct!
The choices both characters make are what makes them heroines and admirably human and HUMANE within the story lines and show quite positively that a character is not defined by their gender but the actions and sacrifices they are willing to take when faced by the dangers and cruelties inflicted on them by life.

 

[Mola Rob]

I think they were meant to be human and to seem like real people. People who do obnoxious stuff, but who can be likable in other moments.

Exactly. Unlike many Hollywood characters they come across as the guy or gal you work with and have a beer with on Friday. They are blue collar workers in space who just want to get the job done and go home.

 

[Bryancd]

Exactly. Unlike many Hollywood characters they come across as the guy or gal you work with and have a beer with on Friday. They are blue collar workers in space who just want to get the job done and go home.

Right, my point is that we are introduced to them when they are at their worst, walking up early from cryo-sleep, pissed off, tired, hungry, argumentative. As the film goes on each has the briefest of moments they all get nice moments...before being killed.

 

[Art Andrews]

Alright, on the heels of all this discussion and defense of Ripley's character, I watched ALIEN today, with new eyes and with a very close look at her as a character.

I could go on for a while about her, but at the end of the day, I still strongly dislike her character and still think she exudes more male characteristics than female and I maintain that she is not what I consider a "strong female character" but a male character with a females outward appearance.

Right off the bat, out of the entire crew, she seems to have an attitude and a chip on her shoulder. Don't believe me? Watch her closely during the entire buildup to the landing. There is ONE brief moment at the dinner table where she seems pleasant. Outside of that, just attitude. Pay particular attention to the way she looks at Ash when he says "You can walk on it" in regard to LV-426. Now, that obviously has nothing to do with my argument about her being written as a man, just that she is a very unlikable, perhaps the most unlikable character out of a whole crew of relatively unpleasant people.

Her attitude towards Dallas when they bring Kane back to ship is cold, uncaring and unsympathetic. She shows less concern for Kane than the "motherly instinct" everyone raves about in Aliens or even the concern she shows for a CAT at the end of the movie. "No, I'll just let Kane die." Now, from a technical POV, we know she made the right logical decision, but it was stone cold without an ounce of sympathy.

She is absolutely horrid with Ash and more interested in correcting him and putting him in his place than showing any concern for Kane. Her only concern is reminding him of the pecking order.

One moment that did seem genuine and sincere and gave her an ounce of humanity was when Ash, Ripley and Dallas come in to look for the facehugger in the infirmary. She shows concern for Dallas as he walks into the room and then clings to him after the dead facehugger falls on her... showing that there is at least a little more there than just bed-buddies and giving me an ounce of hope for her.

But a bit later? When Brett is taken, Parker is visibly shaken, but Ripley? All back to business.. no emotion with regard to either the loss of Brett or the fact that the mouse sized creature they saw only hours ago is now a massive, Brett-stealing monster.

And when Dallas eats it? The guy who leaped in front of her to try to protect her when the facehugger fell on her? She shows a bit of emotion, but less than Lambert as the alien approaches him but the moment after he is taken, Ripley closes her eyes and then when Parker shows Dallas' incinerator, she is back to ice-queen mode; all business, all practical and all attitude.

Later, when she finds Dallas, does she try to save him? Nope. Just torch him. She spent more time with the cat than trying to rescue Dallas.

Sorry guys, I am just not seeing what I would consider a "strong female character."

On to ALIENS where I am interested to SSgt Burton's analogy as that makes a lot of sense to me and I have never looked at Ripley in that way.

BTW, for all my complaining, watches ALIEN again today reinforces in my mind what an absolutely brilliant movie this is. The sound and the sets as well as the costumes are nothing short of amazing.

 

[Mola Rob]

Maybe the problem is trying to look at Ripley as being a strong “female” character? I see her as a strong character when she is forced to be strong (not a strong “female” character but simply a strong character). I think Ridley Scott was trying to blend the gender lines with both Ripley and Lambert and I don’t think he wanted strong feminine traits on display.

I think Ripley was absolutely correct in denying Dallas access to the ship when they returned from the derelict. Dallas was letting his emotions cloud his judgment and his actions could have been detrimental to the rest of the crew. Ripley (and Sigourney) played it perfectly and followed procedure. I think this showed a lack of strength on the part of Dallas.

Ripley had never shipped out with Ash before so she was probably trying to doing exactly what you said, reminding him of the pecking order. She was setting the boundaries.

When Brett is taken Parker is shocked by the size of the alien but I wouldn't say he was being overly emotiional. Ripley is acting like someone who is trying to do something about the situation.

When Dallas gets taken by the Alien Ripley does show some emotion but holds it together. The emotional reaction by Lambert is her losing it. Lambert is clearly terrified by what is happening and is unable to cope. Just different reactions by different people and not different “female” reactions.

When she finds Dallas he asks her to kill him. Just looking at the poor guy it’s obvious he is suffering. Judging from her reaction when she finds Parker and Lambert she is probably emotionally numb from everything that has already happened as well. She knew the ship was about to blow up and there wasn't anything she could do for him anyway.

 

[SSgt Burton]

Later, when she finds Dallas, does she try to save him? Nope. Just torch him. She spent more time with the cat than trying to rescue Dallas.

In fairness Art the 2003 special edition of ALIEN while choosing to include that scene, SEVERLY cut it down so as not to diminish the pace of Ripley's escape.

Personally I think including it in that abridged form was a bad decision, as it really lessened the impact of the sequence (there is actually a lot more of an exchange between Dallas and Ripley- Ripley wants to try and save him as well but doesn't have any idea how to do it at this point because Dallas is too far gone).

I understand the reasoning behind trimming it down (to maintain pace), but don't agree with it. The full sequence could not have been included either as it definitely would have killed the pace of the film. Really, while it was a bit of an easter egg to include that shot, it should have been left on the cutting room floor.

The full length deleted scene was a part of the 1999 dvd (before the Quadrilogy was released). I highly recommend watching the entire sequence if you can, as it does show Ripley showing a lot more emotion over having to mercy kill Dallas. However I'm not sure if the complete deleted scene is available on later releases.


EDIT- Found it

Alien deleted scene: The Cocoon Sequence - good quality - YouTube

On to ALIENS where I am interested to SSgt Burton's analogy as that makes a lot of sense to me and I have never looked at Ripley in that way.

Enjoy Art! If nothing else Aliens is a fun ride!

BTW, for all my complaining, watches ALIEN again today reinforces in my mind what an absolutely brilliant movie this is. The sound and the sets as well as the costumes are nothing short of amazing.

100% totally unequivocally agree! :thumbsup



Kevin

 

[Art Andrews]

The full length deleted scene was a part of the 1999 dvd (before the Quadrilogy was released). I highly recommend watching the entire sequence if you can, as it does show Ripley showing a lot more emotion over having to mercy kill Dallas. However I'm not sure if the complete deleted scene is available on later releases.


EDIT- Found it

Alien deleted scene: The Cocoon Sequence - good quality - YouTube

Well, now I know that Prometheus is not the only movie that suffers from poor editing choices. There was more emotion (other that fear) in those 3 minutes than we see from Ripley in the rest of the film combined. What an absolute shame that was not kept because that was EXCELLENT stuff. Thank you for sharing it.

Putting ALIENS in the player as I am typing!

 

[rodneyfaile]

Has Ash vs Bishop vs David already been covered? lol

Prometheus has the most attenuated connection to Alien. Its not a real prequel. Its just set in the same universe. Not only that, Prometheus and Alien are almost entirely different genres when you compare them. I think that is the biggest reason some didn't like it. They wanted another Alien movie, and that is not what he was making.