Production Used Jaws Clapperboard?

Prop Store

Stairstars

Well-Known Member
Did anyone else see that when these boards were first posted, there was a WIZARD OF OZ one? I failed to match it to any style used by MGM from 1938 to 1940 comparing to behind the scenes production images.

It has been pulled now.
 

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ch3ckme0wt

New Member
Did anyone else see that when these boards were first posted, there was a WIZARD OF OZ one? I failed to match it to any style used by MGM from 1938 to 1940 comparing to behind the scenes production images.

It has been pulled now.
I noticed that too. I didn't save the photo of it. I'm really wondering if all these clapperboards were provided by the same person.
 

indignate

Active Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Hi everyone

I can confirm the B clapperbord sold in Propstore is totally legit, as I found it in the hands of Rexford Metz. And years after I consigned it in Propstore.

I can also add that I met years ago Bill Butler, and he didnt had any clapperboards, just a couple scripts and storyboards, that i bought from him. So that clapper A in Heritage, is not coming from him, and that letter of provenance is ********.

Knowing the B clapper is legit, as I FOUND IT. I am totally sure the A clapper in Heritage is fake, at least for the markings, which are forced to match the spielberg photo and my B clapper. But also the numbers!

Its imposible to still have the same numbers as in the hpto, as the numbers in a clapper are from the last shot it was used. And is not posible that was that day. Also do you imagine how lucky to have the same numbers as in the photo? that never happens in clapperboards.
 
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ch3ckme0wt

New Member
Hi everyone

I can confirm the B clapperbord sold in Propstore is totally legit, as I found it in the hands of Rexford Metz. And years after I consigned it in Propstore.

I can also add that I met years ago Bill Butler, and he didnt had any clapperboards, just a couple scripts and storyboards, that i bought from him. So that clapper A in Heritage, is not coming from him, and that letter of provenance is ********.

Knowing the B clapper is legit, as I FOUND IT. I am totally sure the A clapper in Heritage is fake, at least for the markings, which are forced to match the spielberg photo and my B clapper. But also the numbers!

Its imposible to still have the same numbers as in the hpto, as the numbers in a clapper are from the last shot it was used. And is not posible that was that day. Also do you imagine how lucky to have the same numbers as in the photo? that never happens in clapperboards.
Great information to learn! That’s awesome that you found that. You should check out my thread on The Godfather clapperboard. I suspect that one was consigned by the same person. Possibly the Wizard of Oz one too which was pulled!
 

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JMSupp

Active Member
yes, that godfather is as well suspicious.

I also can tell you that Heritage, Brian, has been informed about this jaws clapperboard, a week ago. Not by me. And is still there. ...
Thanks for the information! That is the proverbial nail in the coffin, in my book. I probably know the answer, but I don't suppose Bill Butler had Quint's machete, by chance?

Heritage Auctions Quint's Machete

I'm not gonna lie, I'm kinda happy to have my suspicions concerned, but it also really bugs me as well. The fact that I'm inherently suspicious that great items coming up at auction being fake is not such a great feeling.

I emailed Brian a few days back, and let him know my concerns. Haven't heard back yet, but the fact that it's still up is concerning.

I'd be curious as to what the letter from the collector says. The phaser rifle in the same auction has a plethora of documentation, which is outstanding. Why can't they show the associated documentation for other pieces? When it exists, of course.

Heritage Auctions Phaser Rifle
 

indignate

Active Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I talked with bill butler about this clapper and machete, of course he never had any of these, and never signed a letter saying so. He wants to talk to heritage. Does anyone has Brian Chanes phone or email?
 

Moviefreak

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I talked with bill butler about this clapper and machete, of course he never had any of these, and never signed a letter saying so. He wants to talk to heritage. Does anyone has Brian Chanes phone or email?
LOL... and watch them still ignore the man and let this go to auction! WOW! Get me some popcorn, lol.
 

Moviefreak

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I talked with bill butler about this clapper and machete, of course he never had any of these, and never signed a letter saying so. He wants to talk to heritage. Does anyone has Brian Chanes phone or email?
Tom Do you have a number to Brian or anyone else? I think if the person who supposedly wrote the letter is saying he didn't, they need to be contacted.
 

Tom

Well-Known Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
You can reach Brian at BChanes@HA.com or 877-437-4824 x1338. I have his personal cell phone but he doesn't want it publicized. Nowhere in the description does it say that Bill Butler wrote a letter. Also, Bill is now 100 years old. I have no position on the authenticity of the clapper, as I am not closely following the evidence. I just like that people dig to expose possible fakes, because the practice is rife in the business.
 

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JMSupp

Active Member
I talked with bill butler about this clapper and machete, of course he never had any of these, and never signed a letter saying so. He wants to talk to heritage. Does anyone has Brian Chanes phone or email?
That should make this a pretty easy conversation to have, I would think.

Auction houses make mistakes. Sometimes they're honest mistakes anyone could make, like new information comes up. Other times, they just don't take the time to go into all the nitpicky details that folks like us do. I get that. It's what happens after they are confronted with information like the above that really matters.

Sometimes people make mistakes, and that's okay. No one is right all the time, and I honestly think that more often then not, Heritage tends to get thing right. Except when they don't.

Simply put, I think they need to pull this and any other items from the same consignor. If they believe that it's authentic, they better start showing their hand, and be able to show a bit of evidence.
 

JMSupp

Active Member
On a side note, I've been going over a few more items in the auction, and on some, they've done a good job on some the descriptions outlining facts as they know them. For example, the Johnny Lawrence Cobra Kai Costume.

In the description, they note:
William Zabka "Johnny Lawrence" Cobra Kai Gi Jacket and Production Used Pants from The Karate Kid (Columbia, 1984). Vintage original Gi jacket with gold piping at collar and down open front and with 2.75" round embroidered "Johnny" fist patch affixed to left chest and 6.5" x 8" "Cobra Kai" patch affixed to the central back of the garment. Accompanied with (1) pair of black canvas draw-string pants with 3-embroidered patches on the left leg including 1-Bruce Lee Core symbol, 1-Ninja patch and 1-Bushido patch and with 1-yin and yang embroidered patch on the left leg. While the Costume Designer attributes the pants to being used by William Zabka, they are not seen worn on screen by the actor and are most likely used by another Cobra Kai member at the tournament. Both garments exhibit minor production wear, age, and handling. In vintage Fine condition. Accompanied by a LOA from credited Costume Designer on the film, Richard Bruno, stating that after production he kept this Gi, worn by Zabka during the tournament sequence. Comes with a COA from Heritage Auctions.

The line about the Costume Designer's attribution is great. They address the question of screen matching the pants clearly enough, and offer a possible explanation. At that point, it's up to the buyer to decide if that's enough evidence for them to decide it they want it or not. I'd be relatively comfortable bidding on this one, just because they laid out the doubts.

Then there is this one, right between the clapperboards. Dustin Hoffman Papillon Costume.

From the description:
Dustin Hoffman "Louis Dega" Devil's Island Prisoner Costume from Papillon. (Solar Prod., 1973) Vintage original heavy canvas pink and white striped (3) piece prison ensemble including (1) tunic-style pullover shirt with long sleeves and deep v-neck, (1) matching pair of pants, handwritten on interior waistband, "Dustin Hoffman II", and (1) matching prison cap, handwritten on interior, "Dustin Hoffman". Exhibiting studio distress and wear. In vintage very good to fine condition. Provenance: Profiles in History Auction 120, Nov. 2020. Lot 278. Comes with a COA from Heritage Auctions.

Pappillon Hoffman1.jpg
Pappillon Hoffman2.jpg
Pappillon Hoffman3.jpg
Pappillon Hoffman4.jpg


Now, I've not seen Papillon in probably 20 years, so I don't have any special knowledge of the movie, nor really any memory of the specific costumes, so this makes it a good test case. All of the above photos are in the auction description. And the offered costume in no way resembles the screen shots THEY chose. Here is a cleaner photo of Hoffman, and another showing some of the other characters.

MV5BNTAyMDkxOTk3M15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwNDc2NjIwMjE@._V1_.jpg
movie-papillon-dustin-hoffman-papillon-movie-wallpaper-preview.jpg
3251.jpg

The costume they are saying is from Papillon is a pullover with a deep "v" neck. The best I can tell from stills from the movie is that all of the shirts are collared pullovers with 3 buttons. The offered costume has no visible buttons, buttonholes, collar, or plackert. There are horizontal shoulder yokes on the shirts in the movie, which is not present or visible on the HA shirt. The direction of the arm stripes on Hoffman's shirt at least match, but that's about the only thing.

It literally took me a single Google image search, and about 10 seconds, for me to decide that there were serious questions about the attribution of this piece to being Dustin Hoffman's costume, let alone even being from Papillion.

Ten more seconds of searching led to this:
Bonham's A DUSTIN HOFFMAN SHIRT AND PANTS FROM PAPILLON

8857101-8-1.jpg

A DUSTIN HOFFMAN SHIRT AND PANTS FROM PAPILLON
Allied Artists, 1973. Rough cotton collared pullover shirt with red and beige stripes, inscribed on the interior, "Corky," and bearing a red-lettered Western Costume Co. Hollywood label with the typed inscription, "Dustin Hoffman / No. 2193 / Chest 38 Sleeve 33 / collar 16," with an additional stamp from Western Costume. Together with a matching pair of red and beige-striped pants with buckle on the back, patch at crotch, and ragged hems. Bearing Western Costume stamps and red-lettered Western Costume Co. label with the typed inscription, "No. 2090- / Dustin Hoffman / Waist 31 Inseam 29 1/2."
Provenance: the Comisar Collection.
Ouch. That one sure resembles the one in the movie...I'm not sure about the pants being torn, because one screen grab shows them being intact, but again, I haven't seen the movie in decades. But it sure looks a lot closer! Oh, and another few seconds later:
A PAIR OF DUSTIN HOFFMAN PANTS FROM PAPILLON

9191032-11-1.jpg

Maybe the pants got separated, maybe from a different scene, no idea. They have a Western Costume Co tag like the jacket, with a matching serial number, 2193. I think that's a darn good match! I feel pretty satisfied that these appear authentic, and match the screenshots.

All in all, from just a few minutes of research (and way too much typing!) from the safety of my office, I think I have a much better feel for the "authenticity" of the pants then whoever cataloged the HA pants. I at least tried to make sure that the object matched the screenshots... As things stand, I don't think the HA costume was anywhere near the set of Papillon.

Sorry to go down a rabbit hole here, I just wanted to demonstrate that sometimes the research isn't hard, and doesn't necessarily require any sort of insider knowledge or contacts to get a feel for the authenticity of an objects. To be fair, it's rarely this clear or easy, and I literally had no idea where this object would lead. I just chose the next item in the auction after the Jaws stuff.

All of this leads me to believe that there seems to be little or no vetting of some of the items that are being offered, and it's very much a case of buyer beware. I don't like not being able to trust auction descriptions. It's a lot of extra work for me, sure, and sometimes I get paid to do it, but I don't enjoy the lack of trust between the buyer's and sellers of these things.

In short, I'd hoped for better, because sometimes, it's not that hard.
 

JMSupp

Active Member
Oh, and if anyone want's to play along, they can check out the Bruce Lee Nunchaku. They don't match the screen shot either... and as my brother can confirm from painful experience, there is no way that the shoddy clips that are on the chain will, under vigorous use, prevent one of the dowels from flying off and hitting him in the chest.

Now, my personal anecdote is not a deal breaker, but it does make me pause.
 

ch3ckme0wt

New Member
I talked with bill butler about this clapper and machete, of course he never had any of these, and never signed a letter saying so. He wants to talk to heritage. Does anyone has Brian Chanes phone or email?
That’s terrible. What concerns me even more than the fake clapperboard is the forged letter!
 

Stairstars

Well-Known Member
I, for one, would never consider a WCC piece that lacked a sewn in label, especially from a film where a half dozen examples have sold ALL with a proper label and within the same number range. This one shrieks of being wrong, and like you show James, it would have taken less than a minute online to show the discrepancies.
 

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Generalist

New Member
Not going to lie; I consumed all 81 pages of the phaser saga in a single, possibly health-threatening, definitely work-preventing, nail-biting sitting, and then wound up here. This whole thing is absolutely bonkers. Anyone with even the most casual attention to detail would be able to identify these props as fakes.

The "A" camera clapperboard is obvious even without the great provenance from indignate, and they weren't even trying with the Dustin Hoffman outfit...
 

ch3ckme0wt

New Member
They just updated the description to say this

“Originally acquired in 2005 from Jawscinematographer Bill Butler, the clapperboard comes with a copy of a Confirmation of Sale stating, in part, "I used my camera "A" clapperboard throughout production. During production, a picture was taken with Steven Spielberg with the camera "B" clapper which was used primarily by Rex Metz... From time to time I lent out my camera "A" clapperboard for Jaws festivals and exhibits including the Jaws Fest 30th anniversary. Steven was supposed to attend that festival so we decided to recreate the picture taken of him (thirty years later!) but with my clapperboard. To do that, we had my clapperboard modified to make it look more like the camera "B" clapperboard. Shortly after the process of revising my clapperboard began, we were told that Steven unfortunately would in fact not be attending which was a bit disappointing. However, I did tell this story at the Jaws Fest..." These facts were recently corroborated with direct communication with Mr. Butler and family, and it was further established that this clapperboard was also on display at a temporary Smithsonian exhibit in addition to the aforementioned Jaws festivals.”
 

Moviefreak

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
They just updated the description to say this

“Originally acquired in 2005 from Jawscinematographer Bill Butler, the clapperboard comes with a copy of a Confirmation of Sale stating, in part, "I used my camera "A" clapperboard throughout production. During production, a picture was taken with Steven Spielberg with the camera "B" clapper which was used primarily by Rex Metz... From time to time I lent out my camera "A" clapperboard for Jaws festivals and exhibits including the Jaws Fest 30th anniversary. Steven was supposed to attend that festival so we decided to recreate the picture taken of him (thirty years later!) but with my clapperboard. To do that, we had my clapperboard modified to make it look more like the camera "B" clapperboard. Shortly after the process of revising my clapperboard began, we were told that Steven unfortunately would in fact not be attending which was a bit disappointing. However, I did tell this story at the Jaws Fest..." These facts were recently corroborated with direct communication with Mr. Butler and family, and it was further established that this clapperboard was also on display at a temporary Smithsonian exhibit in addition to the aforementioned Jaws festivals.”
Wow! Sounds like they are blatantly making up a story to address “why the A board distressing matches the B board so closely”. That sound like such a BS answer.

And then they still insist that they were corroborated with recent communication from Mr. Butler. I guess we should ignore that Indignate stated:
“I talked with Bill Butler about this clapper and machete, of course he never had any of these, and never signed a letter saying so. He wants to talk to heritage.”

indignate, I think you need to share the new description with Bill Butler and see if any of that makes sense. If it is all true, he should be able to confirm.
 

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