Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
It starts with olive branches and plates full of crow.
Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation
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It starts with olive branches and plates full of crow.
Darth Niob
Sr Member
Funny to read such a quote from you....the guy who is right in everything he says without any proven facts...just of his own spoken word
unsure
GINO
Sr Member
For someone who bashed Ainsworth (and rightfully so) for taking on credit for work he did not actually do, I would think that Brian would want to take advantage of the opportunity to clarify exactly what his role in vader's creation was.
ESPECIALLY, if someone posted such and he saw mistakes in what he read.
Unless there are no mistakes.
.
ESPECIALLY, if someone posted such and he saw mistakes in what he read.
Unless there are no mistakes.
.
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
That depends, Gonz. Is your statement made to imply that it's all personal?
Or are you allowing for the possibility that one can dislike GINO's character (read: behavior) without any disdain towards GINO as a person?
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
See, for something to be personal, you have to know them as a person. I am of the opinion that some people blur the line between the two.
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
Baiting Brian Muir....
I really don't wish to speak for Brian, but for one thing he was the one who refined the plaster masters.
And what exactly has Brian's role in testifying against Andrew Ainsworth have to do with his own contributions in ANH? The way you paint his contributions is disrespectful.
So why, Gino, do you continue to bring up Andrew Ainsworth? What is your history with him?
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
Since most Den people don't know GINO as a person, then by logic your statement that sentiments were personal cannot be true.
Many disagree with GINO's marketing and ever-changing story and revised histories.
Let's see... let's not forget GINO's own website where he bans people for disagreeing with him, especially the incident that involved Darth Karo's display being hailed as #1. I guess in banning those people from his own site, we should examine GINO with a double standard? I guess that's where the line blurs because you're a member of that site as well?
Trap Joe
Sr Member
I recommend: Just ignore this imposter Gino.
It´s a waste of time and space.
Thank you Brian for these info´s!!!:thumbsup
It´s a really great thread with a lot of informations.
BTW. if you are planning a run of Vaderhelmets let me know!
I like to own a piece that THE VADERGOD made!
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StarWars Collector
Well-Known Member
Please allow me to try and get this thread back on track
On what do you base this opinion?
On what do you base this opinion?
What an interesting (and sad) read. This does bring up some VERY interesting questions for me... not specific to this fight, as I am not a Vader person, but to the nature of research in this hobby in general.
A number of people are claiming Gino is being disrespectful to Brian but my question to you who feel that way is this: because someone was involved with the prodcution of a movie or specific prop, does that place them in a position above question? Should members not be allowed to question or disagree when they feel a "fact" has been misrepresented?
I ask this because in my experience with talking to a number of people involved in production, they often have nuggets of truth mixed in with a lot of supposition and even more out-and-out inaccuracies. Now, I don't think ANYONE that I have talked to has purposefully made a false statement, but there have been plenty of times where the facts simply don't back up their claims. Again, let me reitterate, I am not saying this is the case here... I don't know.. I have NO knolwdge of Vader... but it DOES concern me to see what appers to be a precident being set in which a person related to the production is beyond question and their word is readily accpeted as fact and anyone who would DARE to question those "facts" is dogpiled for their "audacity."
And don't think I don't know that Gino can be arroagnt or a pain, but it would seem that what is happening here is a censorship of the ability to critically think for oneself and a mob mentality of forceably demanding anything that is said by someone involved with the production be accepted by the community as unquestionable fact.
My real concern is why Brian's statements (or anyone involved in a production) aren't open to review and constructive criticism. Sure, his statements should hold more weight because of his involvement with Vader, but he, like the rest of us is human, and as prone to error or misremembering as anyone else. It baffles me that it would appear the argument is that we should just put our brain on a shelf and be spoonfed information as long as someone was tied to the production. Seems like a very dangerous path to me...
A number of people are claiming Gino is being disrespectful to Brian but my question to you who feel that way is this: because someone was involved with the prodcution of a movie or specific prop, does that place them in a position above question? Should members not be allowed to question or disagree when they feel a "fact" has been misrepresented?
I ask this because in my experience with talking to a number of people involved in production, they often have nuggets of truth mixed in with a lot of supposition and even more out-and-out inaccuracies. Now, I don't think ANYONE that I have talked to has purposefully made a false statement, but there have been plenty of times where the facts simply don't back up their claims. Again, let me reitterate, I am not saying this is the case here... I don't know.. I have NO knolwdge of Vader... but it DOES concern me to see what appers to be a precident being set in which a person related to the production is beyond question and their word is readily accpeted as fact and anyone who would DARE to question those "facts" is dogpiled for their "audacity."
And don't think I don't know that Gino can be arroagnt or a pain, but it would seem that what is happening here is a censorship of the ability to critically think for oneself and a mob mentality of forceably demanding anything that is said by someone involved with the production be accepted by the community as unquestionable fact.
My real concern is why Brian's statements (or anyone involved in a production) aren't open to review and constructive criticism. Sure, his statements should hold more weight because of his involvement with Vader, but he, like the rest of us is human, and as prone to error or misremembering as anyone else. It baffles me that it would appear the argument is that we should just put our brain on a shelf and be spoonfed information as long as someone was tied to the production. Seems like a very dangerous path to me...
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
Art,
This pretty much all stems from GINO's claims that ROTJ Vader masks are all recycled ESB masks.
That claim has been debunked on the Den, if anyone cares to read it, with photographic evidence of both ROTJ hero and ROTJ stunt helmets having features that are distinctly different than ESB but yet remarkably consistent among ROTJ.
So in many of our minds, GINO's statement is in error, and the facts are quite clear (although not quite discussed on RPF). While he is entitled to his opinion, GINO's simply not accepted this and has tangented his suppositions onto Brian's helmet, making Brian the latest casualty of this error. There is nothing open and constructive to his line of thinking.
The issue of ROTJ masks being recycled ESB masks is purely GINO's and predates Brian's helmet by at least a year if not more.
This pretty much all stems from GINO's claims that ROTJ Vader masks are all recycled ESB masks.
That claim has been debunked on the Den, if anyone cares to read it, with photographic evidence of both ROTJ hero and ROTJ stunt helmets having features that are distinctly different than ESB but yet remarkably consistent among ROTJ.
So in many of our minds, GINO's statement is in error, and the facts are quite clear (although not quite discussed on RPF). While he is entitled to his opinion, GINO's simply not accepted this and has tangented his suppositions onto Brian's helmet, making Brian the latest casualty of this error. There is nothing open and constructive to his line of thinking.
The issue of ROTJ masks being recycled ESB masks is purely GINO's and predates Brian's helmet by at least a year if not more.
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StarWars Collector
Well-Known Member
Now, that goes both ways, doesn't it?
Facts? I haven't read any facts... :confused
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
Well, looks like GINO has now banned Brian Muir from starwarspropaganda.com's forums....
Should have named it GINOpropaganda.com
This has been a very amusing read, folks. Thanks for the brief distraction. :thumbsup
Should have named it GINOpropaganda.com
This has been a very amusing read, folks. Thanks for the brief distraction. :thumbsup
CSM,
I guess my question would be, what are the purposes of forums if not for the sharing and refining of information. While I am sure the opportunity to dogpile Gino is fun, can we not step back and take a larger view here? There are hundreds of people who will see this thread. If you guys have proved Gino wrong on the ESB/RotJ thing, why not post it here and provide the proof that he is wrong because if you have proof and he doesn't... well, that pretty much ends the debate, or at least makes your stance a lot stronger and for all those vader fans who are watching this thread, it gives them a more thorough knowledge of Vader instead of a more thorough knowledge of who hates who.
I guess my question would be, what are the purposes of forums if not for the sharing and refining of information. While I am sure the opportunity to dogpile Gino is fun, can we not step back and take a larger view here? There are hundreds of people who will see this thread. If you guys have proved Gino wrong on the ESB/RotJ thing, why not post it here and provide the proof that he is wrong because if you have proof and he doesn't... well, that pretty much ends the debate, or at least makes your stance a lot stronger and for all those vader fans who are watching this thread, it gives them a more thorough knowledge of Vader instead of a more thorough knowledge of who hates who.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
Art, that was very well stated. There are people who would agree with the very fact that someone is a "VADERGOD" because he sculpted the face and helmet. Hell, sometimes my view can be colored by a person's involvement in a production.
Here is what I can say about Brian: He is VERY open and sharing with all of the information he knows for sure. He is also a very personable guy to talk to. Now, that said, he has not disputed his involvement beyond ANH. I cannot dispute he knows production people who worked on RotJ, but he can only take that person's word for what he found, what mold was used for the beaten up helmet he has or how it came to be made.
Was that helmet just one of those things the modelers did on RotJ? Was it taken as a form of payment? What was that mold anyway? All of this stuff, despite what Brian has been told by his source is still supposition. He has to take his word for it. His word from almost 30 years ago. Hell, I don't remember what I was doing with specifics 20 years ago, let alone 30.
I know people were downhearted when Brian restored that helmet, but I cheered it. That helmet has no REAL value. It has nothing but spoken word to prove its provenance. It was never on screen, so why not restore it? I applaud his restoration. What he does with his helmet is entirely his business.
You're a good chap, Brian. Thanks for everything.
Here is what I can say about Brian: He is VERY open and sharing with all of the information he knows for sure. He is also a very personable guy to talk to. Now, that said, he has not disputed his involvement beyond ANH. I cannot dispute he knows production people who worked on RotJ, but he can only take that person's word for what he found, what mold was used for the beaten up helmet he has or how it came to be made.
Was that helmet just one of those things the modelers did on RotJ? Was it taken as a form of payment? What was that mold anyway? All of this stuff, despite what Brian has been told by his source is still supposition. He has to take his word for it. His word from almost 30 years ago. Hell, I don't remember what I was doing with specifics 20 years ago, let alone 30.
I know people were downhearted when Brian restored that helmet, but I cheered it. That helmet has no REAL value. It has nothing but spoken word to prove its provenance. It was never on screen, so why not restore it? I applaud his restoration. What he does with his helmet is entirely his business.
You're a good chap, Brian. Thanks for everything.
There is a big difference between asking someone about their role in a production and belittling it. Not to mention that it was an offense to Brian.
GINO
Sr Member
Sadly that is true.
Even more sadly is the reasoning behind it.
Brian basically started going thread after thread posting direct insults (4 to be exact before I was able to put a stop to it).
I can't believe that someone such as Brian would stoop to that level.
Arguing on forums is for us lowly folk. People like Brian is supposed to be 'above' it. At least in my opinion.
.
Trap Joe
Sr Member
I work in the Movie/amusement park Industry as well as a sculptor and modelmaker and know about the fact, that creative people´s out there do have to be taken very carefully for granted, but there´s one fact:
Brian was more then involved and works a s a professional -in fact THE coolest professional out there in the business (from my point of view) and Gino never. There are galaxies between them. After close reading, every word of Brian should be paid with gold...
It´s so ridiculous what Gino does.
We should be extremely thankful, having Brian here in this discussion board. It´s unbelievable great, having him here, sharing his time with us Vader nuts!
So stupid bashing against him, fishing for attention:wacko
After your last post, Gino, I will never again take you for serious. You are mad! Just think about that: you post in pubicity that you have banned BRIAN MUIR????!!!! hahahah. Next step: ban yourself to space!!!
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