Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation
- Thread starter SithLord
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Trap Joe
Sr Member
exactly!!! Well well. Definitively not!
Come now... you aren't listening. I have already said that of course Brian's word should hold more weight, but it doesn't mean he can't be wrong any more than the rest of us. That seems to be the crux of the issue is that you seem to believe that 33 years equates to unquestionable authority. While I fully support Brian as an authority, no one is unquestionable.
Absolutely not. Again, you are honing in too closely on this issue specifically. My concern is not whether Brian or Gino is right, but that the comments that have been posted indicate a very disturbing trend:
1) Those who worked on a specific item are above question in regard to their statements about that item.
2) A hobbyist (pretty much all of us) could never be right if what they believe doesn't agree with a professional.
3) If you dare to question someone who has had professional or hands-on experience, you will be dogged, hounded and blacklisted.
There's nothing wrong with asking questions or being skeptical. But Gino is discounting what Brian says out of hand with nothing to back it up...no reason offered as to why Brian is wrong. And then when Brian speaks to that Gino bans him from his forum and belittles his contributions to ANH. Of course we should ask questions and inquire about things, but in a respectful manner.
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
Art,
I'm not one of SithLord's buddies and have engaged him in debate too many times. But in this particular case, you do not appear to be listening. You're trying to spin GINO as one who dares to ask the tough questions, but again the burden of proof is on the accuser, NOT the accused.
The premise of the "tough questions" by GINO is the presumption that ROTJ masks are recycled ESB masks. GINO has failed to prove this. Photographic evidence exists to the contrary, discussed and analyzed throughly on the Den. Don Bies has not unambiguously corroborated GINO's supposition. So where does that lead us? The premise of the "tough questioning" is simply WRONG.
I'm sure that if you took a moment to peruse the discussions on the Den and examine the thorough research, you will arrive at the conclusion everyone else has. As a Moderator, you really need to examine the broader context, rather than the one small thing that can be spun to make your friend look like a hero.
I'm not one of SithLord's buddies and have engaged him in debate too many times. But in this particular case, you do not appear to be listening. You're trying to spin GINO as one who dares to ask the tough questions, but again the burden of proof is on the accuser, NOT the accused.
The premise of the "tough questions" by GINO is the presumption that ROTJ masks are recycled ESB masks. GINO has failed to prove this. Photographic evidence exists to the contrary, discussed and analyzed throughly on the Den. Don Bies has not unambiguously corroborated GINO's supposition. So where does that lead us? The premise of the "tough questioning" is simply WRONG.
I'm sure that if you took a moment to peruse the discussions on the Den and examine the thorough research, you will arrive at the conclusion everyone else has. As a Moderator, you really need to examine the broader context, rather than the one small thing that can be spun to make your friend look like a hero.
And of course no one is infallible, but come on...if Don Bies showed an original C3PO costume he acquired from a crew member on ESB that he knew personally for 30 years should we question him on that? That is basically questioning his integrity. If it looks like the costume is not original then we should provide some rationale/comparisons/screenshots whatever about that at least...discuss it...but Gino doesn't. That is disrespectful.
ave4uevoli
Sr Member
I think anyone who is objective will think that everyone here isn't telling the "truth." NOT because they're purposely doing so. NOT because of any spiteful or personal reasons... but because it's possible to poke holes in everyones arguments here.
Brian - I think it's amazing that you worked on the original helmet, and I find it facinating that you did so. You definitely have your place in history set. I wouldn't begin to belittle your comments... However, I think what the people here need is "proof." These crazy issues can't be decided based on "your word" anymore, nor can it be proven with anyone else's word. The fact that you've worked in the industry for 40 years is astonishing. Again, you are most likely one of the most accomplished persons here. But this fact begs the question if you can definitely remember, out of all the helmets, parts, pieces, face casts.. etc that you have pulled out of molds, if one of them was a ROTJ helmet and if that was sculpted for ROTJ or cast from some other helmet or whatever...
Please don't take my comment above the wrong way. It really is a compliment - because you have been in the industry so long, and you've pulled countless molds - that's what makes you great. Personally, however, I can't remember what I ate for lunch last week or what I did at work last week unless I had it written down. That's the "proof" that some of us are looking for - did anyone take pictures of the molds? does anyone know anyone that has the "agenda for the day" for the prop creating dept?
I would love to just be able to believe Brian or Gino (or sithlord or....), but those of us who are 40-50 years old (i'm not) ask yourself if you can remember what you did 30 years ago or even 20 years ago.
Brian - from me to you - I highly respect you. Obviously we wouldnt' all be bickering to this degree if your work wasn't one of the most iconic pieces in history. However, this thread was asking a very specific question of which I feel can only be really decided with tangible proof... or else it will continue being a "he said" "she said" thread with no end in sight.
Since you haven't argued against it, I am going to assume (feel free to correct me) that you aren't taking issue with the validity of what Gino said there... only with HOW he said it.
I guess posts like that will simply come down to everyone's interpretation.
To me, I see a lot of people who have posted that would make an outsider think that Brian created Vader from head to toe and Gino was correcting that perceptional. Clearly you see it differently.
An additional point I would make is that EVERYONE deserves respect... not just those who were involved in the production.
Trap Joe
Sr Member
not to forget that Gino NEVER explains anything. Behaving like a big Indian charlatan who says: You are wrong because I´m right. Don´t question that.
Why should we all have more respect for someone (who in fact made some nice work on recreating Vader, but not the best ones) who has no respect for others - although he IS ONE OF US. And not even a professional in industry.
Trap Joe
Sr Member
All right clutch. But i see people writing about Gino. Now me including, which I didn´t want to do. i only did because I see Brian being insulted. I tried to bring the discussion back to topic. And away from Gino´s bashes.
That was all I had in mind.
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
So Darth Karo was banned... now Brian is banned.
For years we've had it beaten over our heads by GINO with him saying, "If you don't believe me, look at my displays. The fact that my displays have that look must mean I must know something!"
The man who sculpted Vader feels someone else's display has a better look, and he's banned for it.
People who don't train their eye but look at GINO's fanmade displays need to realize that the man who sculpted Vader doesn't think GINO's displays are the very best representation of the character he sculpted, but that honor goes to another.
ave4uevoli
Sr Member
Art - I think you have the right idea - and unless everyone can get back this whole "lack of respect" thing, there's no way to get back to simply trying to get the facts.
Trap Joe - the fact that he doesnt' have any respect for us doesn't help us at all. What if Brian didn't have respect for us? what if someone who actually has, hypothetically, the original mold in their basement has no respect for us... what does respect have to do with getting to the truth? It doesn't help that you keep pointing out that you don't like Gino, in fact it doesn't help when people say anything bad about anyone.
From what I read, after Brian commented Gino did say "I respectfully disagree" THERE"S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! Sure, after everyone badgered him, and after some people said somewhat snippy things like "IGNORE HIM" *ahem* (trap joe) did Gino get snippy with Brian.
Would I have liked Gino to explain why? HELLS YES. I wish he would divulge his evidence. I wish others actually had tangible evidence other than screencap comparisons and pictures of helmets which already have questionable lineages.
And now we're stuck with a problem - we're never going to know what Gino knows, no one else has tangible proof (something that I think is necessary at this stage) and this problem will never be resolved.
The fact that you don't respect someone - or the fact that someone doesn't respect you is irrelevant to the actual issue at hand, and if you want to get down to the truth of the matter.
Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
What exactly is it that you go on? Because if don't believe the guys that worked on the production what's left? Supposition - based on what? My memory cannot be based on what you can or can't remember - there are things in my working life that are extremely clear. Star Wars is one of them. I'm not infallible but I only give information based on fact. For anyone who has or is working in the British Film Industry will understand what a small community it is.
I am not adverse to being questioned or in any way feel 'above it 'but other than naming the guy on the production ( which I'm sure anyone on this forum knows is never done)
I've gladly shared knowledge and information for 4 years with the forums with no agenda other than knowing how important it is to the Vader community - whatever Gino would have you believe.
Why should I argue against it when Brian is here to argue it for himself? But he is clearly offended by Gino's comments. I wonder why? Maybe because of Gino's offensive tone? Something beyond interpretation as being offensive?
I got an infraction for how I criticized Gino's ANH Vader in a single post in a thread that wasn't even about Vader. So? You are right, it comes down to one's own interpretation, which has no bearing I suppose on the CoC to show respect to others on the forum.
But since you asked, let me address a couple of things from Gino's post:
How does Gino know what Brian's role was? That is presumptuous.
True. But grossly oversimplified.
No, Brian refined the plaster masters. Brian knew the plasterers personally because they were right next door to him. They had to mold the head sculpt, and from that a plaster master was made. Brian then personally refined that plaster master and sculpted the helmet on top of it. The helmet was molded and a plaster made of that, which Brian refined. Gino speaks as if Brian was so far removed from everything. Brian was at the same level in the art department as John Mollo was in the costume department. And he still knows people from that department. People we will never see on this forum.
Come on. Brian was ONSET and SAW THE ORIGINAL ANH COSTUME. He was there. Both Mollo and Muir said the original helmets were black, not two-toned. So they are both wrong?
So by your own interpretation there is nothing disrespectful about this post? Just because YOU don't know what Brian did?
Frankly, this thread is an embarassment to the Vader community.
Instead of try and reason with Gino's way of thinking friends - Clutch/Art, why not get this thread back on track or shut it down?
Instead of try and reason with Gino's way of thinking friends - Clutch/Art, why not get this thread back on track or shut it down?
No, I am not spinning anything, nor am I making a "hero" out of Gino for "daring" to disagree. What I see here is not people saying "Gino you are wrong and here is why" but people saying "How dare you question person X! We have all come to on a consensus on this at another (private) board and feel no need to prove anything but we will smack you because you aren't showing the respect we think you should by agreeing with this person."
I don't see Gino as any sort of hero at all. I just see him as someone with a different opinion and he is being crucified because he doesn't agree with Brian.
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
So if GINO has consensus on his own discussion board that all ROTJ masks are recycled ESB masks, he is free to act accordingly against others without proof?
Your statement "feel no need to prove anything" is an insult because while GINO does not furnish any proof, there are many of us who have already put in a lot of time examining available resources and corroborating information to verify whether or not GINO's ROTJ=ESB statement is true or false. No-one's banned you from the Den, Art. You are invited to read it for yourself. This is my second invite to you.
So if you're not requiring GINO to post proof, don't ask people who worked hard on a thread on another forum to repost all those findings when you won't accept the invitation to go there and read it all yourself.
People are NOT saying "how dare you question person X". It's "How can you ignore all this available evidence and still be of an opinion where you can assail another to protect your own viewpoint?" Big difference.
Trap Joe
Sr Member
:thumbsup yes, please! I want to hear more behind the scenes information about Vader(the real one/s).
No he is saying categorically that Brian is WRONG and misinformed. Even if Gino is right, and sure he might be right, that isn't the point. The point is the manner in which he is addressing someone who worked on the ANH production, and who knows someone who worked on the ESB production, who made the castings. This is the same way in which Gino addresses everyone with whom he disagrees with. He belittles Brian's contribution to ANH, just as he belittles everyone elses contribution to the hobby.
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