Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Ya know, pretty soon, Vader will be a damned banned topic on this board for the reasons listed above. A case cannot be presented without mud slinging. GINO, I would offer the suggestion to stop with the assumptions about Brian and what he does or does not intend with his helmet. You only have conjecture to go on. Prop Den crew, you guys get FAR too personal, and sugar coat it all you like, you know I am speaking the truth.

This whole thing is turning into a giant crap pot stirred by everyone who has had a hand in the thread. It's really sad to read. It's sad that this information can no longer be shared freely. It's sad that both sides cannot find a common ground and dole out the info.

Let's look at this honestly and objectively. None of us here have any first hand knowledge as to what happened with the ESB helmets, or if they were converted to RotJ. Brian, your contribution to Vader will NEVER be equaled. That said, and I might be wrong, but LFL took the ball of Vader and ran with it after you were done with the scultping. So, as much as I REALLY respect you, you only have hearsay to go by in regards to what happened after your involvement.

GINO, you know I respect you, but you were nowhere near as involved as Brian, or even Don. I know you strive for getting out truthful information, but it is easy enough to do that without pissing on the contributions that Brian has given. There is a way to tell the truth and temper the words. You know me, and you know I try to be objective, but calling out Brian on his sale of helmets was wrong. Could it happen the way you see it coming down? Hell, it is very likely, but until it does, you are slamming a guy for nothing...and comparing what he is putting out to what Ainsworth has done was wrong, man.

Yeah, people went to Ainsworth and still trust his word, even though he has been proven to be a liar. Brian's name should not even be uttered in the same sentence with Ainsworth's though. They are not even cut from the same cloth.

 

[StarWars Collector]

Prop Den crew

Pls leave the Den out of it, shall we?

BTW: you're a Den member too.

 

[CSMacLaren]

This is the most arrogant nonsense I have yet to read on the RPF.

He has ample respect, but not enough respect to smear Brian with saying incorrect information for financial gain.

The insanity of wanting to be the world expert on Vader so badly that you bite the hand of the man who sculpted the Dark Lord.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

I know I am a member, SWC, but you cannot deny there is a clique over there. You also cannot deny that I am NOT a part of that clique. That clique only seeks to bludgeon you with hazy photos and squiggly lines. They pat themselves on the back, right or wrong. If wrong, NEVER admitting as much.

 

[StarWars Collector]

There are people over there who share a different view. That's not a clique, that's what I call a community.


Sorry for the OT; pls continue.

 

[Darth Niob]

If the Den members are a clique than you could easily call some of the guys here the Gino clique...and you are certainly a member of it.
Its always the same nonsense you are telling. So everyone who is not the same opinion as your Gino, even if he has proven infos and even if he has clearly better stuff, is always one part of that Den membership. If this is your only argument ...than its a poor one.

 

[Brian Muir]

BTW, let's be clear about what Brian's role in Vader was exactly.

He took the McQuarrie concept sketches and sculpted the faceplate, dome, chest armor, and shins that we all have come to know.
For that, I (and millions of others) are eternally grateful. That is a HUGE distinction and one that I have ample respect for.


But that is where Brian's part in the creation of Vader ended.


From that point, the clay sculpts were turned into plaster positives, that someone else refined. Then those plaster positives were molded by someone else which birthed the fiberglass helmet and armor casts, and the vac formed shins.

Then, it was turned over to the art department for finishing, painting, and detailing.


So does that make Brian an expert on all things Vader. In my opinion not at all.
To be more clear, his involvement and knowledge stops at the initial sculpting point.
To claim any more than that in my opinion is over reaching one's boundaries.

.

OMG you're now telling ME and everyone else what I did on the film!! Your arrogance and misinformation knows no bounds. Yet again you are WRONG on many points.

 

[CSMacLaren]

I know I am a member, SWC, but you cannot deny there is a clique over there. You also cannot deny that I am NOT a part of that clique. That clique only seeks to bludgeon you with hazy photos and squiggly lines. They pat themselves on the back, right or wrong. If wrong, NEVER admitting as much.

Qui,

The first time you joined the Den, you played the part of an unbiased referee, only to be later found to be a GINO supporter. The fact that you're repeating GINO's anti-Den propaganda nearly word for word tells me you're not an independent thinker.

Yes, I've seen the times you claim you "rolled your eyes" at GINO, but patronize those who disagree with him.

You can't play us with this feigned unbiasedness any longer. You're whitewashing GINO's wrongs by claiming disagreements with what he says are "personal".

GINO was banned for the same trollish behavior as we see here. The moderators have explained this very clearly. Anything GINO says to the contrary is a smear on the Den for not believing him without question the way you do, Qui.

 

[CSMacLaren]

OMG you're now telling ME and everyone else what I did on the film!! Your arrogance and misinformation knows no bounds. Yet again you are WRONG on many points.

The above, said to GINO, is quoted for truth.

 

[CSMacLaren]

There are people over there who share a different view. That's not a clique, that's what I call a community.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Qui,

The first time you joined the Den, you played the part of an unbiased referee, only to be later found to be a GINO supporter. The fact that you're repeating GINO's anti-Den propaganda nearly word for word tells me you're not an independent thinker.

Yes, I've seen the times you claim you "rolled your eyes" at GINO, but patronize those who disagree with him.

You can't play us with this feigned unbiasedness any longer. You're whitewashing GINO's wrongs by claiming disagreements with what he says are "personal".

GINO was banned for the same trollish behavior as we see here. The moderators have explained this very clearly. Anything GINO says to the contrary is a smear on the Den for not believing him without question the way you do, Qui.

Or how about this Mac, I can see you for all of the stories you tell. I can't even openly disagree with both sides without being called a GINO supporter. I am no mouthpiece, nor am I a two faced back stabber who tries to color his disagreement with a "friend" by flipping and flopping on this issues.

I have seen more anti-GINO stuff lately on the Den, where that type of behavior is allowed. Really, Thomas making a thread "revising" GINO's history of his involvement with Vader? How is THAT not arrogant.

Look Mac, one thing you will find out about me is I am honest...to a fault. It is a fault you FEW on the Den who bash a non-member (Where he can neither see, nor defend himself) dislike about me. It's a "fault" to defend a friend. Fact is, were you my friend, or even a good acquaintance, like GINO, I would defend you the same. Don't EVER try to talk about my honor like this again, Mac. You do not know me well enough to do so. You want honesty from me, you will get it. You want lies and double talk, look elsewhere. I have no reason to lie to you, or anyone else. Be it on the Den, or on the RPF.

 

[GINO]

OMG you're now telling ME and everyone else what I did on the film!! Your arrogance and misinformation knows no bounds. Yet again you are WRONG on many points.

I don't see how you could call what I said arrogant.

If I am wrong about any of what I said in that post regarding you and your role in the creation of Vader, then please clarify.

.

 

[SithLord]

Look we can argue about Den stuff on the Den. Please leave it there or we will just see another thread lock here.

Qui, I respect your post but no one here wants to unload on Gino ok. I think you stated everything yourself about what he posted very well. It is a simple matter of provocation and reaction to the provocation.

 

[Brian Muir]

BTW, let's be clear about what Brian's role in Vader was exactly.

He took the McQuarrie concept sketches and sculpted the faceplate, dome, chest armor, and shins that we all have come to know.
For that, I (and millions of others) are eternally grateful. That is a HUGE distinction and one that I have ample respect for.


But that is where Brian's part in the creation of Vader ended.


From that point, the clay sculpts were turned into plaster positives, that someone else refined. Then those plaster positives were molded by someone else which birthed the fiberglass helmet and armor casts, and the vac formed shins.

Then, it was turned over to the art department for finishing, painting, and detailing.


So does that make Brian an expert on all things Vader. In my opinion not at all.
To be more clear, his involvement and knowledge stops at the initial sculpting point.
To claim any more than that in my opinion is over reaching one's boundaries.

.

I don't see how you could call what I said arrogant.

If I am wrong about any of what I said in that post regarding you and your role in the creation of Vader, then please clarify.

.

Why? Because you'll only argue and tell me I'm wrong - same as stating the guy who cast the ROTJ helmets didn't know he did them because you said he didn't:eek

 

[GINO]

So then are you disputing what I said or not?
And if so, EVERYONE would love to know what else you were responsible for.


.

 

[CSMacLaren]

Or how about this Mac, I can see you for all of the stories you tell. I can't even openly disagree with both sides without being called a GINO supporter. I am no mouthpiece, nor am I a two faced back stabber who tries to color his disagreement with a "friend" by flipping and flopping on this issues.

I have seen more anti-GINO stuff lately on the Den, where that type of behavior is allowed. Really, Thomas making a thread "revising" GINO's history of his involvement with Vader? How is THAT not arrogant.

Look Mac, one thing you will find out about me is I am honest...to a fault. It is a fault you FEW on the Den who bash a non-member (Where he can neither see, nor defend himself) dislike about me. It's a "fault" to defend a friend. Fact is, were you my friend, or even a good acquaintance, like GINO, I would defend you the same. Don't EVER try to talk about my honor like this again, Mac. You do not know me well enough to do so. You want honesty from me, you will get it. You want lies and double talk, look elsewhere. I have no reason to lie to you, or anyone else. Be it on the Den, or on the RPF.

Qui,

Just to be honest, I did NOT appreciate the first PM conversation with you when you joined the Den, right around the time when GINO was banned. You wanted to dissuade discussions about GINO. But when you're expousing viewpoints that are almost word for word quotes of what GINO says, that really does NOT help me think you're a conscientious objector. Why is someone who is not a GINO supporter want to quote GINO almost verbatim?

For the record, I nearly applauded what you typed until I re-read what Star Wars Collector had concern with - you faulting the Den for being personal.

If you want to say the Den is facilitating anti-GINO threads, then consider the historical context. It takes one person to polarize a hobby or an interest group. I've seen it happen in more than one circle. It takes one individual to say "I'm right. Everyone else is wrong because of XYZ". Then those who have worked hard to help people and to create an environment that is supportive and friendly are put on the defensive and speak up for themselves.

That one individual then simply says things like "they're saying that against me because they're jealous" and thus begins a never-ending battle.

It all comes from a mentality that one person has to be the best of the best of the best, or wants people to think what they know or possess is superior to anything else out there.

People of good character shouldn't have to really make such boasts.

BTW, I can tell you that what I am about to say about SithLord is unbiased because I have debated him more than most people. What he is doing is keeping an evidence record of photos of Gino's props against Gino's claims. Newcomers who don't have this historical information are not aware that Gino makes changes over time but does not reveal his doing so. So Thomas isn't revising history. Rather, Gino is revising history and Thomas is keeping track of changes. BIG difference there.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Mac, there are a FEW on the Den (As I later stated) who have a huge axe to grind with GINO, yourself chiefly among them. How was what I said dishonest or untrue? Am I wrong in stating that most of those who actively post in the Vader section of the Den have a dislike of GINO's character? If what I said was wrong, I will recant with a happy smile.

 

[Brian Muir]

Yes I am disputing your version of what I did on ANH but I've wasted enough time on you - what's the point in discussing it with someone who thinks he knows it all and becomes insulting when the facts do not suit his own agenda.

Sadly you won't be ignored

Brian

 

[GINO]

Yes I am disputing your version of what I did on ANH but I've wasted enough time on you - what's the point in discussing it with someone who thinks he knows it all and becomes insulting when the facts do not suit his own agenda.

Sadly you won't be ignored

Brian

Ok you are disputing it, but not saying what was incorrect. Ok. :unsure


.

 

[SithLord]

Guys, as much as I enjoy reading your arguments :lol I'll ask again please as the starter of this thread if we could keep the Den-related arguments on the Den. Yes there is a nice anti-history thread there but let us please keep to the topic of the origin of the original ROTJ helmets for which the main focus is on Gino's claim that all the ROTJ helmets were derived from original ESB helemts and whether that is the case or not. There was a lot more discussion about it on the Den and hopefully there is a constructive way to continue that here. Or?