Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[vadermania]

Sithlord > Trees > not seeing the forest as usual

Here you go silly.
There are others but these are the ones I can post.

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Gino,

sorry to bother you with this, but since you haven't answered my PM or my email that I have sent to you a couple of days ago, could you please be so kind and let me know where you got the above pic from?

I would appreciate if you could drop me an email or PM.

Thanks,

Tom aka vadermania aka TM

 

[Victorious-Jay]

OK, I'm going to wade into shark infested waters to pose this question. I've read every page of this thread and many others so forgive me if this issue has already been addressed.

If you accept the assertion that all the ESB and ROJ helmets started out as identicle ANH helmets that were later modified (and I do accept it) , then how did the "fat lipped" ROJ helmet come about? It really looks different than the other helmets to me.

 

[Darth Niob]

Good question.

 

[GINO]

The fat lipped ROTJ is one of the perspex stunt helmets.
The fat lip was created due to the mating of the perspex neck to the fiberglass face.
There is no such thing as an all fiberglass fat lip helmet in any SW film.

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[Victorious-Jay]

I just watched ROJ and I was thinking that, I kid you not. It makes sense because I saw the fat lipped helmet only in the fight scene with Luke. It was very dark and it hides the perspex very well. Thanks for the replies.

 

[Darth Niob]

Sounds logical.

 

[vadermania]

Since it seems that Gino refuses to answer my emails, PM’s and completely ignores my question regarding my picture that he has posted, I’d just want to express my disappointment about an individual who in my eyes is one of the top Vader experts in the community.

TBH, I have nothing against you, Gino. But simply ignoring me was not the right way to handle this.

Case closed.

I am very sorry that I wasn’t able to contribute anything to this discussion so far, but I am engaged in some private matters which are consuming most of my spare time atm. In short, I mostly agree with Gino regarding the re-use of ESB Vader helmets and some costume components for ROTJ, but I do think that perhaps one or two additional „new“ helmets were produced for ROTJ since it is very possible that not all the ESB helmets were available for re-use at the time of ROTJ due to different reasons. I base my theory on the number and types of Vader helmets I have handled and documented during my visit in the archives. Additionally, it is possible that the „new“ screen-used ROTJ helmet(s) feature(s) a slighly different fiberglass pattern than the original ESB helmets. The PA stunt and the TM are just samples for the same type of pattern and material used for a specific run of ESB production helmets, and I have seen matching patterns on Vader helmets in the archives. Again, this is my personal opinion based on my personal observations. It could also be possible that due to the limited number of Vader scenes in ROTJ and the extensive use of the ROTJ stunt at the end of the movie, no additional „new“ helmets were needed.

PS: This pic might help to end the theory of the „fat-lipped ROTJ“, which is indeed the ROTJ stunt (possibly made together with the PA stunt for ESB) as Gino has already correctly stated earlier.

 

[Trap Joe]

wow, that´s very cool. thanks for sharing. thumbsup:thumbsup
I hope for you that Gino has some courage to answer you!

 

[lambotour]

Thanks for the photo Tom. It's interesting to note how the ROTJ stunt differs from the ESB stunt in regards to the lower lip. It appears they filled in the bottom on the ROTJ creating the "fat lip" whereas on the ESB stunt the perspex curves up into the the lower jaw of the faceplate.

 

[Vadermonkey]

I do not think they were made at the same time as stated for several reasons. The only similarity between the two stunt helmets are that they are Darth Vader.

 

[vadermania]

I do not think they were made at the same time as stated for several reasons. The only similarity between the two stunt helmets are that they are Darth Vader.

Hmmm, I was just thinking what if something had happened to the ESB stunt faceplate during the shoot, and no extra at hand? Anderson fighting with a hero faceplate? At least it is possible they had a backup stunt faceplate for different reasons, that's why I am thinking that both known Vader stunt faceplates were made at the same time. The PA ESB stunt came from the Joiner/Kurtz collection, correct? So it might have been available for ROTJ, too.

There was also a rumour about an ANH stunt faceplate with perspex parts, but I have not seen any evidence so far that it really existed.

BTW, is it just me or does the gunmetal colour on the ESB stunt differ from the ROTJ one?

And thanks for sharing the pic, lambo

 

[HAL9000]

There was also a rumour about an ANH stunt faceplate with perspex parts, but I have not seen any evidence so far that it really existed.

No evidence exists as it is, as you say, only a rumour - there is no truth to it.

 

[lambotour]

No problem Tom.:cool I agree with Mike. IF they were made at the same time, then they may have been made by two different people, but I don't believe they were. I have numerous pics of both stunts and you can see the difference in their construction. The ESB looks a bit rushed where the ROTJ version looks like more time was taken on it. Basing my observation on the perspex construction on the cheeks and the rear of the faceplates, which are slightly different, as well as the "fat lip" etc.

 

[GINO]

It's my understanding that all the stunt helmets were made for ESB.
None for ANH.


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[vadermania]

It's my understanding that all the stunt helmets were made for ESB.
None for ANH.


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Do you think the ROTJ stunt has been repainted for ROTJ or was it just unused during ESB production and taken over to ROTJ without any alterations?

 

[dcarty]

It would certainly make sense that both Stunts were made for ESB. One helmet being a back-up in case the other got too damaged to film. Possibly the ROTJ version was made with more refinement to stand up to the scrutiny of close-ups or modded for that purpose once ROTJ came around?

 

[GINO]

I believe it went through the refurbishing as well.
You can tell by the lenses and grills.

I don't believe any of them were intended to be used in any close up sequences.

Hard to say which ones were used in some capacity vs which ones actually showed up on screen in ESB or ROTJ.
There were more than 2 made, but the only ones I've been able to definitively match on screen is the Paul Allen ESB and the Fat Lip in ROTJ.

Here they are.

ESB

ROTJ

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[Vadermonkey]

Normally I would agree with the back up theory (referring to these two specific pieces), but the neck is the main issue I have with them being made during ESB. Both are completely different suggesting two seperate molds....and being the only person on the forums to have made a stunt helmet with a perspex neck to date, it makes no sense to have two seperate molds unless they were made at different times. And be certain I am not mistaking the way they were cut and affixed.

Its the difference between forming a neck over a raw cast and forming one over something equivilent to a GH ROTJ neck....close but not the same.

I wish they would send the Jedi stunt out to an exhibit so I can get a first hand glimpse. :angelHINT HINT:angel Or heck, as long as I'm wishing...just invite me to the archives!

 

[Trap Joe]

so cool info´s inbetween! Thanks guys for sharing!!!

 

[lambotour]

It is certainly plausible to believe that two stunts were made for ESB and only one used, but taking into account the difference in construction between the two AND the sloppy work on the dome attachment on the stunt mask vs the cleaner ROTJ would lead me to believe they were made at different times. Cleaning up a dome attachment that would not be seen anyway would make no sense considering what we know as to how they went about making the helmets.