Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[CSMacLaren]

Just a point of observation:

One of the little artifact details generally go unnoticed.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Yes Mac, it went unnoticed like the little one a bit further up there. There is a bit of strangeness where you circled though, so it could have been cleaned up a bit. Who knows?

 

[GINO]

It is certainly plausible to believe that two stunts were made for ESB and only one used, but taking into account the difference in construction between the two AND the sloppy work on the dome attachment on the stunt mask vs the cleaner ROTJ would lead me to believe they were made at different times. Cleaning up a dome attachment that would not be seen anyway would make no sense considering what we know as to how they went about making the helmets.

If you are referring to the putty swiped around the flange, that has no bearing.
Some of the helmets flanges are laid in nice and clean, no sloppy putty, while others are quite messy. It has no bearing on which film they came from as both ways were done for ESB.

 

[lambotour]

All of the pics that I have seen of the ESB helmets and their dome attachments, other than the stunt, have pretty much been clean. All of the pics I have seen of any ROTJ helmet, I'd have to check through my pics though to say with 100% certainty, have all been clean. The ROTJ stunt, however; is the only helmet I have seen with that "fat lip" and in addition to what has already been said about the differences in construction, not just subtle changes, would lead me to believe that it was made at a later date.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Does that perspex come all the way up the nose? It looks like the fabricators tried cutting the mouth slots in the perspex and just did not go all of the way. (My first really goood view of the stunt, so on me being Captain Obvious!)

 

[Too Much Garlic]

A perspective. The first attempt at something new may not look as clean and tidy as the second attempt. Could also have been made by another craftsman than the one doing the one seen in ESB - could also explain the differences.

This is no proof either or of the fat-lipped stunt being ESB or RotJ. Just thinking out loud.

Just a shame we chased Don away, as he was a direct link to the archives. Sad.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Just a shame we chased Don away, as he was a direct link to the archives. Sad.

I don't think we so much as chased Don away as he has better things to do than go digging in the archives for us anal retentive Vader nutjobs. It happens. Probably the same reason Brian does not chime in as much as we would like either. Remember, they are people WELL before they are or were ILM/LFL employees. They are not our whuppin' boys when we quibble over mouth slots not cut far enough, or a casting worm on a corner.

I am sure they read and chuckle a bit at how WE ALL act over this stuff. It is art to a lot of us. Art and history, fellas. That is what these props are.

 

[vadermania]

It is my belief that all of the OT Vader helmets were made in England in a workshop at or around Elstree Studios.

My guess is that there must be some paperwork existing which documents how many Vader helmets were made for ESB and if existing ESB helmets were re-used and reworked for ESB. I have seen and read many original old production documents from ANH. Perhaps we should start thinking about digging in some papers instead pieces of fibreglass?

 

[HAL9000]

It is my belief that all of the OT Vader helmets were made in England in a workshop at or around Elstree Studios.

Correct! at Elstree.

My guess is that there must be some paperwork existing which documents how many Vader helmets were made for ESB and if existing ESB helmets were re-used and reworked for ESB. I have seen and read many original old production documents from ANH. Perhaps we should start thinking about digging in some papers instead pieces of fibreglass?

The only paperwork from the production of ANH that exists for Vader are John Mollo's drawings. Why would there be precision detailings on an item that was hand sculpted by eye? I don't think you will have any joy searching for paperwork.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Weren't we told that Rick Baker made a mold and such here in the states for pick up scenes?

 

[darthvaderv]

There was alot of detailed paperwork at Elstree Props still when it was sold in March 2008. Tom and I saw detailed descriptions of the production notes including materials that were made etc and where they were bought from. There were so many to go through we just scanned over them quickly without giving much care. These were not copies, they were authentic, so paperwork may indeed exsist. We were told in time they would scan them in bit by bit on their website so people should start hassling them to see if this information was in those notes.

 

[vadermania]

Correct! at Elstree.



The only paperwork from the production of ANH that exists for Vader are John Mollo's drawings. Why would there be precision detailings on an item that was hand sculpted by eye? I don't think you will have any joy searching for paperwork.

I'm not talking about designs, I was thinking about minutes of meetings, quotations, bills, material lists etc..

I have found similar documents in the past during the research process regarding the history of other props. They answered many questions when it came to the actual number of props which were made for a movie and who made them, who was subcontracted to deliver parts etc.. Since I am working in the film business myself, I know how substantial those documents are.

 

[CSMacLaren]

There was alot of detailed paperwork at Elstree Props still when it was sold in March 2008. Tom and I saw detailed descriptions of the production notes including materials that were made etc and where they were bought from. There were so many to go through we just scanned over them quickly without giving much care. These were not copies, they were authentic, so paperwork may indeed exsist. We were told in time they would scan them in bit by bit on their website so people should start hassling them to see if this information was in those notes.

Depending on the size of the paper (is it A4?) we may be able to run the paper through a page scanner, and do some OCR (optical character recognition) to aid in some text searches. If there is a project like that underway, let me know.

 

[SithLord]

The flat-lipped Vader obviously had it's lower mouth area/teeth sanded down flat, making the lip thicker...they probably did that so it was flush with the neckpiece, without any regard for the original mouth detail.

 

[RBJ]

The flat-lipped Vader obviously had it's lower mouth area/teeth sanded down flat, making the lip thicker...they probably did that so it was flush with the neckpiece, without any regard for the original mouth detail.

When I first read that I thought you were nuts and rushed back to look at pics to prove you wrong...lollollol

Looks like you are right..never noticed that before! thanks!:thumbsup :lol

 

[GINO]

When I first read that I thought you were nuts and rushed back to look at pics to prove you wrong...lollollol

Looks like you are right..never noticed that before! thanks!:thumbsup :lol

Maybe you missed what I said way back on post #418. :wacko


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[Qui-Gonzalez]

Maybe you missed what I said way back on post #418. :wacko


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I missed it. It doesn't look a smooth sanding of anything. It looks like hastily made cuts in the perspex and the triangle mouth part is part of that perspex made to slot into the fiberglass of the mask. Is that what you are saying?

 

[GINO]

No, the perspex is just the neck.
The lip was sanded/filled to better register with the horizontal mating line.

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[RBJ]

The fat lipped ROTJ is one of the perspex stunt helmets.
The fat lip was created due to the mating of the perspex neck to the fiberglass face.
There is no such thing as an all fiberglass fat lip helmet in any SW film.

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..I didn't miss it, it just didnt click that the fat lip was due to the sanding off of that bottom mouth triangle wall thingie...

I think I am up to speed now...:lol

 

[Trap Joe]

Maybe you missed what I said way back on post #418. :wacko


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I always knew that :angel