Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[Onigiri]

Youve obviously never worked on a production. Things get reused all the time becuae its also about TIME which also equals MONEY and if youre on a team thats having to produce a bunch of items (not just masks) and theres one mold that time increases a LOT! Look how long it takes one person on this board with one set of molds to get product out. If you needed 6 NEW helmets the time for just CASTING those helmets is 6 days MINIMUM with one mold regardless of how many people you have on your team. More molds = More Money. Do the math.
If you have 6 people on your team and one mold you can STILL only cast one helmet a day. If you have 6 helmets sitting there and 6 guys working you could have TWO guys REFURBING 6 helmets while 4 guys are working on something else. You have to UNDERSTAND why things are done the way they are done

How much more money? Its one step more...cant be that much...especially in a 27 million dollar production.

 

[lonepigeon]

Here's the same ROTJ original mask. Even if they cleaned it up, there's no way that that is a re-used ESB. They would have to fill the previous strap slot hole, there would have been some evidence of repair....and all WITHIN THE MOUNTING BASE WITHOUT REMOVING IT. :rolleyes

Is this assuming that every ESB helmet was exactly the same?
I don't get the reasoning here.
Why would they have to do anything but touch up a little paint?

SL - You're really not helping your case here.
Claiming that one helmet is bigger than another from grainy pics is just absurd.

 

[SithLord]

Is this assuming that every ESB helmet was exactly the same?
I don't get the reasoning here.
Why would they have to do anything but touch up a little paint?

SL - You're really not helping your case here.
Claiming that one helmet is bigger than another from grainy pics is just absurd.

What is absurd about it? Do you even know what those helmets are? Someone actually photographed ROTJ and ROTS helmets side by side and I've done the same with a ROTS and ANH.

It is a simple exercise in scaling. The size relationship of the original ROTJ and the original ROTS is obvious. The size relationship of the ROTS and ANH I show is also obvious.

 

[Onigiri]

You can roll your eyes all you want NIOB but I have worked on productions here in Hollywood involving props and armor and i know HOW and WHY things work...so until you have some experience to back up YOUR opinions all rolling your eyes does is show that you have an opinion without the knowledge or experience to back it up. So if you want to be rude and clever and roll your eyes to someone more familiar with things then you are why dont you just sit on the sidelines and let the folks who DO have some experience talk.

 

[SithLord]

That applies to the pics Thomas has shared as well. I'm tapping out to watch this unfold. I think we have passed the useful info stage, which may be why Don bowed out ten pages ago.

Hector

What? I show directly that the ROTS mask is smaller than ANH and therefore smaller than ESB and that the ROTJ and ROTS are the same size. Not useful?

 

[Darth Niob]

That applies to the pics Thomas has shared as well. I'm tapping out to watch this unfold. I think we have passed the useful info stage, which may be why Don bowed out ten pages ago.

Hector

Some here have nothing to share as senseless comments since xx posts instead of bringing arguments against an opinion...is this better?

 

[lonepigeon]

What is absurd about it? Do you even know what those helmets are? Someone actually photographed ROTJ and ROTS helmets side by side and I've done the same with a ROTS and ANH.

It is a simple exercise in scaling. The size relationship of the original ROTJ and the original ROTS is obvious. The size relationship of the ROTS and ANH I show is also obvious.

It's absurd because there's nothing of value in that image to accurately scale from.
The SW Celebration image has been up-sampled and sharpened (and it's still low res). The photography setup is not controlled. You have no info on focal length, distance from objects etc. Even if you did the photo is not high quality enough to determine anything - certainly not a minor difference in size.

Furthermore...
You stated above a list of minor discrepancies you think apply to all ROTJ helmets.
It's been stated here and accepted that each mask came from a single mold. So even if they made new ROTJ helmets they came from the same mold as the ESBs (which is consistent with what Brian said). I'd like to see proof of ROTJs, but all I've read is guesswork about them being smaller. How about some hard differences?
These minor things being pointed out while somewhat interesting would only apply to a single helmet not an entire batch no matter which movie they were made for.

The theory about the ROTJ's having a different mounting system was already completely shot down (promo helmet photo).

ESB helmets exist - proven and accepted fact by all.
Logic dictates the burden of proof lies with those who believe some helmets were made specifically for ROTJ.
If ROTJ helmets exist I would like to see them.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

ESB helmets exist - proven and accepted fact by all.
Logic dictates the burden of proof lies with those who believe some helmets were made specifically for ROTJ.
If ROTJ helmets exist I would like to see them.

Hears the sound of a nail being hit on the head.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

What the heck happened here? The thread was going so nicely and we were getting useful stuff from Don and Brian... now they are out of the thread. That sucks.

What I would like to know, which I don't see addressed here is how many ESB helmets were actually made... and how many of those still exists (maybe I missed that part)... and how many confirmed screen/production used RotJ helmets still exist? There has to be a way to draw a line in the sand from ESB onwards to RotJ if ESB helmets were refurbished and re-used and the is at least 1 pure ESB helmet shown in RotJ, during the revelation scene at the end, just before Luke pulls the dome off, where it switches to the reveal helmet.

Is the reveal helmet a new cast or reused ESB that was cut up and redone? Is the funeral pyre helmet a new cast or one of the original ANH helmets?

It is very clear that stuff was re-used without concern for prosterity... it was easier and cheaper to just use what had already been made than to make new stuff.

What I think personally is that it seems that at least the dome was molded again for RotJ or possibly for the appearance helmets, as the ANH face has been seen cast with a RotJ dome from original molds.

It'd be sad if all this arguing is making those who actually has the stories to tell to back out and stay away just because we act like rabid dogs.

 

[defstartrooper]

Looking at the broader picture here...
No new Stormtrooper helmets were made for ESB - ALL reused ANH.
Luke's ROTJ lightsaber was primarily reused Kenobi stunt sabers from ANH.

Why would they not reuse the Vader ESB helmets? They did stuff like that ALL THE TIME.

BTW - I don't see where the ROTS helmet should even enter into this discussion. It's an output of a manipulated computer scan (molded, cast and finished with modern materials). There are too many ways that mask could change throughout that whole process.

Chris go back i said it was concievable on the first post, it's also possible they pulled fresh casts, see again it's this thing of people stating stuff as facts which is just theory, it bugs me , i've said it time and time again.

 

[Onigiri]

Not mention there were at least TWO reveal helmets seen...ESB and ROTJ and they were attached face and jaw in a dynamically different fashion leading me to ASSUME that teh ROTJ reveal was not a rework of the ESB reveal. That being said it generally takes a minimum of two castings to scratchbuild one reveal...thats not a forgone conclusion Im just speaking from personal experience. I DOUBT that either reveal was a rework but rather castings were done and modified specifically for the reveal helmets. In the case of the reveals I think starting from scratch castings is far easier then trying to modify them.

What the heck happened here? The thread was going so nicely and we were getting useful stuff from Don and Brian... now they are out of the thread. That sucks.

What I would like to know, which I don't see addressed here is how many ESB helmets were actually made... and how many of those still exists (maybe I missed that part)... and how many confirmed screen/production used RotJ helmets still exist? There has to be a way to draw a line in the sand from ESB onwards to RotJ if ESB helmets were refurbished and re-used and the is at least 1 pure ESB helmet shown in RotJ, during the revelation scene at the end, just before Luke pulls the dome off, where it switches to the reveal helmet.

Is the reveal helmet a new cast or reused ESB that was cut up and redone? Is the funeral pyre helmet a new cast or one of the original ANH helmets?

It is very clear that stuff was re-used without concern for prosterity... it was easier and cheaper to just use what had already been made than to make new stuff.

What I think personally is that it seems that at least the dome was molded again for RotJ or possibly for the appearance helmets, as the ANH face has been seen cast with a RotJ dome from original molds.

It'd be sad if all this arguing is making those who actually has the stories to tell to back out and stay away just because we act like rabid dogs.

 

[Onigiri]

Possible, granted, but not likely. At some point we have to look for patterns and combine them with common sense and a working understanding.
There is nothing to indicate there were new casts made except for the possibility of a new cast(s) to make the reveal(s). We do see evididence pointing to the helmets being refurbished ESB and we also see that there was a STRONG pattern of refurbing and reusing helmets and armor for all the other armored characters. That is a pattern and it is a pattern that makes sense. You have all these perfectly usable helmets at your disposal so why not use them when all you have to do is touch them up? Also, if there were all these ROTJ specific helmets then what happened to the ESB helmets?
Its like the black and white phasers from the first couple episodes of Star Trek in the 60s...Roddenberry wanted a new brighter more detailed look for them so VOILA! The Grey phasers were born. Wah Chang submitted a quote for refurbishing them and it was far less then the cost of remaking them. For years con men like Mark English were selling 'ORIGINAL' screen used Black and White phasers to unsuspecting collectors until, lo and behold, it was discovered they (the original Black and Whites) had all been repainted and redetailed as the grey phasers...WHY? Because it was faster and cheaper then building all NEW ones from scratch. Why waste what is readily available and accessible?
These productions have a budget and a schedule and all manner of steps are taken during these productions to save on both. That is simply the way things are done even to this day. Sets, props, costumes are always redressed whenever possible so that money can be spent elsewhere. Lucas has shown his penchant for redressing and reusing in the OT because it left him money to build NEW sets and afford NEW locations, etc.
So, is it a known FACT that this was done? Not absolutely 100%. Does the preponderance of experience and evidence point much more strongly in that direction? Id have to say yes.

Chris go back i said it was concievable on the first post, it's also possible they pulled fresh casts, see again it's this thing of people stating stuff as facts which is just theory, it bugs me , i've said it time and time again.

 

[SithLord]

It's absurd because there's nothing of value in that image to accurately scale from.
The SW Celebration image has been up-sampled and sharpened (and it's still low res). The photography setup is not controlled. You have no info on focal length, distance from objects etc. Even if you did the photo is not high quality enough to determine anything - certainly not a minor difference in size.

Well if you have experience photographing Vader helmets and masks as I do then that information isn't necessary to be able to tell. It is obvious from the plane of the stand where the person is standing in relation to the two masks and the ROTS is further away from the camera than the ROTJ, and yet the ROTJ appears nearly the same size. If they were perfectly parallel to the plane of the CCD, then the ROTJ would appear even smaller. It isn't hard to figure out. The objects are distant, at least 8 feet away so even if it was a 35mm lens the objects being in the center are not affected by lens distortion.

Furthermore...
You stated above a list of minor discrepancies you think apply to all ROTJ helmets.
It's been stated here and accepted that each mask came from a single mold. So even if they made new ROTJ helmets they came from the same mold as the ESBs (which is consistent with what Brian said). I'd like to see proof of ROTJs, but all I've read is guesswork about them being smaller. How about some hard differences?

Well if I had a measurement from an original ROTJ then problem solved.

Well then you and me both would like to know if that same mold (which one?) was used for both ESB and ROTJ independently.

These minor things being pointed out while somewhat interesting would only apply to a single helmet not an entire batch no matter which movie they were made for.

No, they are on the stunt helmet in the archives as well. I don't point out things frivolously that relate to a single casting.

The theory about the ROTJ's having a different mounting system was already completely shot down (promo helmet photo).

So? What bearing does that have on Gino's theory, except that those are promo helmets?

ESB helmets exist - proven and accepted fact by all.
Logic dictates the burden of proof lies with those who believe some helmets were made specifically for ROTJ.
If ROTJ helmets exist I would like to see them.

Let's keep it in context. Sure ESB helmets exist and so do ROTJ helmets.
It seems surprising that you think that all the Vader helmets made for ROTJ were simply recycled. That is to say, you think that there were no ROTJ Vader helmets made in a multi-million dollar production. I've shown that the one helmet Gino showed a photo of is significantly smaller than it should be if it were an ESB. Since the ROTJ helmets and masks have lost so much detail, it is easy for Gino to say they were all recycled and refinished and that there is no difference between them but there are many differences and I just named a few. And Brian Muir seems to have a helmet that he says came from a mold used for the ROTJ production, otherwise why call it a ROTJ helmet? :rolleyes So either Gino is wrong or Brian Muir and a crewmember who worked on ROTJ is wrong. It shouldn't be hard to figure out with all the contact we have at LFL.

 

[lonepigeon]

Well if you have experience photographing Vader helmets and masks as I do then that information isn't necessary to be able to tell.

It's not experience that's needed. It's quality of source material that's lacking.
Exactly how much smaller do you believe the helmet is?

No, they are on the stunt helmet in the archives as well. I don't point out things frivolously that relate to a single casting.

So do you think they both came out of a common mold that way?
If so then some identifying marks common to both castings yet not on any ESB helmets would prove your case.

So? What bearing does that have on Gino's theory, except that those are promo helmets?

The point is you were using that photo as your primary evidence that ROTJ helmets existed. Once that was disproven, your argument lost a lot of merit. Not saying you're wrong, but you lack convincing proof.

Let's keep it in context. Sure ESB helmets exist and so do ROTJ helmets.
It seems surprising that you think that all the Vader helmets made for ROTJ were simply recycled. That is to say, you think that there were no ROTJ Vader helmets made in a multi-million dollar production.

I've researched enough Star Wars props to know better.
You'd think they would bother to make the main character in this multi-million dollar production his own weapon rather than recycle 7 year old props. They didn't make Luke his own lightsaber until production moved to the US and they needed a couple more.
Why did they refurbish a 30 year old C-3PO suit for Revenge of the Sith? (whose budget was far greater than ROTJ)
I could come up with a pretty large list of reused props, costumes, etc for these muli-million dollar productions.

I've shown that the one helmet Gino showed a photo of is significantly smaller than it should be if it were an ESB. Since the ROTJ helmets and masks have lost so much detail, it is easy for Gino to say they were all recycled and refinished and that there is no difference between them but there are many differences and I just named a few. And Brian Muir seems to have a helmet that he says came from a mold used for the ROTJ production, otherwise why call it a ROTJ helmet? :rolleyes So either Gino is wrong or Brian Muir and a crewmember who worked on ROTJ is wrong. It shouldn't be hard to figure out with all the contact we have at LFL.

All the differences you named are minor finish things (sanding, filling, etc) that should be unique to each helmet. I'm not sure how you arrived at these conclusions without examining several screen used ROTJ helmets first hand.

As suggested above, could it be that the ROTJ reveal was made from raw castings pulled from the ILM mold? That would explain why the mold was out during ROTJ production and Brian's could have come from that time (and basically no one is wrong).
I will say that it sure appears that the neck of the ROTJ reveal was made from the ESB reveal, but they had to at least make a new faceplate.

PS - I wouldn't bother any of my friends at Lucasfilm with this frivolous discussion.

 

[Onigiri]

Thanks Chris
See, I believe (with nothing to substantiate it other then supposition), that the mold was out to fabricate castings for the purposes of making the reveal. I dont believe the reveal was recycled from ESB and I dont think it was worth teh time or expense to completely strip down and redo and existing usable helmet in to the ROTJ. Makes more sense to pull a few copies and cut em apart to start from the beginning in that case.

 

[rocketeer25]

Guys, I'm not going to pour through 37 pages of posts to figure out where this thread got derailed. But when the conversation turns from discussion of the prop to a discussion about other members... well it's time for a decision.

Do we let the thread continue and keep it On Topic? Or do we just lock it down and call it a night? I hate to see a good prop discussion end because a couple of guys can't keep it civil.

The same parties always end up getting personal when the other guy just doesn't see it the same way. At some point, you have to agree to disagree, knowing that some minds just can't be changed. It's what mature people do.

 

[defstartrooper]

Possible, granted, but not likely. At some point we have to look for patterns and combine them with common sense and a working understanding.
There is nothing to indicate there were new casts made except for the possibility of a new cast(s) to make the reveal(s). We do see evididence pointing to the helmets being refurbished ESB and we also see that there was a STRONG pattern of refurbing and reusing helmets and armor for all the other armored characters. That is a pattern and it is a pattern that makes sense. You have all these perfectly usable helmets at your disposal so why not use them when all you have to do is touch them up? Also, if there were all these ROTJ specific helmets then what happened to the ESB helmets?
Its like the black and white phasers from the first couple episodes of Star Trek in the 60s...Roddenberry wanted a new brighter more detailed look for them so VOILA! The Grey phasers were born. Wah Chang submitted a quote for refurbishing them and it was far less then the cost of remaking them. For years con men like Mark English were selling 'ORIGINAL' screen used Black and White phasers to unsuspecting collectors until, lo and behold, it was discovered they (the original Black and Whites) had all been repainted and redetailed as the grey phasers...WHY? Because it was faster and cheaper then building all NEW ones from scratch. Why waste what is readily available and accessible?
These productions have a budget and a schedule and all manner of steps are taken during these productions to save on both. That is simply the way things are done even to this day. Sets, props, costumes are always redressed whenever possible so that money can be spent elsewhere. Lucas has shown his penchant for redressing and reusing in the OT because it left him money to build NEW sets and afford NEW locations, etc.
So, is it a known FACT that this was done? Not absolutely 100%. Does the preponderance of experience and evidence point much more strongly in that direction? Id have to say yes.

Yeah that's cool but it's still posible, ANH/ESB troopers weren't reused were they for ROTJ ? ANH imperial navy helmets weren't reused for ROTJ, were the ESB Vader helmets modified castings leftover from ANH ? no the original ANH was molded and new casts were made.
The last ones quite indicative wouldn't you say ? if they made new Vader casts for ESB it doesn't seem completely unreasonable they would do the same for Jedi.
Not saying they did but i can't see why one claim is any more or less reasonable than the other.
I don't think either one has shown enough to say one way or the other for sure.
We're talking a small number of items here for a big budget movie you can't compare it with TOS a low budget tv show.

Has anyone shown for a fact that all the ROTJ Vader helmets were redressed ESB ? no.
Has anyone shown as fact that any ROTJ vader helmet is a fresh cast ? no.

That's the bottom line neither side has or can at this time prove anything, it's supposition from both.

 

[Onigiri]

Huge difference between vacuum forming shells and Fiberglassing....you can knock out several shells ready to be assembled on all of the examples you described (by several I mean in the dozens) in the time it takes one fiberglass helmet to be laid and cure. The vacuum form helmets are also much more delicate and do not have the life expectancy of fiberglass as we have seen from the condition of those helmets. The troopers got beat up. Now I am NOT a trooper expert by any stretch but it seems there was a reason the ROTJ helmets were changed I just cant remember what it was.
Also, IIRC, the helmets being used on promotional tour while ESB was being worked on WERE the original ANH helmets of which there werent very many.

 

[Darth Niob]

@Onigiri Tried to Pm you but your inbox is full.

 

[lonepigeon]

Not saying they did but i can't see why one claim is any more or less reasonable than the other.Not saying they did but i can't see why one claim is any more or less reasonable than the other.

Very true, but people need to quit being so defensive.

SL was the first one to say that the ROTJ budget was so big they must have made new helmets. He offered that as "proof" which it is not so myself and others offered the counter argument.
Countering the counter argument helps nothing.

This whole thing is just going around in circles.
Might as well lock it really.