Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[Darth Niob]

Yes but these props weren't looked at the same way we look at them..
they were just props for a movie....

But these props are important enough to gave them another look in the movie.

 

[Darth Niob]

What Time? Ummmmm Let's see? Deadlines for the start of filming..
Your forgetting that the characters are generally made first and then filming...
These guys didn't exactly work at their own leisure......

Compared to all the stuff they had to cast or produce, built etc. its not that much. And this work wasnt made by only one or two persons but from a big staff of artists.

 

[defstartrooper]

What Time? Ummmmm Let's see? Deadlines for the start of filming..
Your forgetting that the characters are generally made first and then filming...
These guys didn't exactly work at their own leisure......

So you're telling me it's quicker to strip down an existing finished helmet and repaint it than to cast a nice fresh pull that's ready for painting right away ?
I don't see how that saves them much time if any.

 

[GINO]

You do realize that almost ALL of components of the vader costumes in ROTJ were re-used ESB. Not just the helmets.

Only thing that was definitively new is the cape.
Potentially also the leathers and shins.


.

 

[ArtisanProps]

So you're telling me it's quicker to strip down an existing finished helmet and repaint it than to cast a nice fresh pull that's ready for painting right away ?
I don't see how that saves them much time if any.

who said anything about stripping down the helmet? a light sanding would
suffice..............

 

[ArtisanProps]

Compared to all the stuff they had to cast or produce, built etc. its not that much. And this work wasnt made by only one or two persons but from a big staff of artists.

Everytime I watch Empire, I'm blown away at the amount of props and
costumes they had to build. Even for a huge staff it was a big undertaking..
cutting corners where your able to is a practice still used.......

 

[Darth Niob]

Everytime I watch Empire, I'm blown away at the amount of props and
costumes they had to build. Even for a huge staff it was a big undertaking..
cutting corners where your able to is a practice still used.......

You're right...there were so many of them, that i dont believe they just shortend their work time on the most important character...would make no sense in my eyes.

 

[lonepigeon]

So you're telling me it's quicker to strip down an existing finished helmet and repaint it than to cast a nice fresh pull that's ready for painting right away ?
I don't see how that saves them much time if any.

Looking at the broader picture here...
No new Stormtrooper helmets were made for ESB - ALL reused ANH.
Luke's ROTJ lightsaber was primarily reused Kenobi stunt sabers from ANH.

Why would they not reuse the Vader ESB helmets? They did stuff like that ALL THE TIME.

BTW - I don't see where the ROTS helmet should even enter into this discussion. It's an output of a manipulated computer scan (molded, cast and finished with modern materials). There are too many ways that mask could change throughout that whole process.

 

[glim999]

Looking at the broader picture here...
No new Stormtrooper helmets were made for ESB - ALL reused ANH.
Luke's ROTJ lightsaber was primarily reused Kenobi stunt sabers from ANH.

Why would they not reuse the Vader ESB helmets? They did stuff like that ALL THE TIME..

Oooo that's a really good point!

 

[SithLord]

Lets not gloss over this significant contradiction in regard to Brian's helmet.





That also kind of pisses all over Thomas' conclusion that the ROTJ's should be smaller than the ESB's or any ANH style base casting to come from that mold.

Whoops.


.

Here I showed the ROTS is significantly smaller than the ANH.

And here the ROTJ Gino actually showed earlier is the SAME SIZE AS THE ROTS.

I rest my case.

 

[SithLord]

BTW - I don't see where the ROTS helmet should even enter into this discussion. It's an output of a manipulated computer scan (molded, cast and finished with modern materials). There are too many ways that mask could change throughout that whole process.

See the photo of the ROTS and ROTJ in the post above.

 

[Tyler Durden]

ESB is FILLED with reused parts from ANH, e.g. many of the bounty hunter costumes, the AT-AT pilots, the stormtroopers, ect...

A number of these disputes stem from people who glamorize and rationalize the prop building process from a "fanboys'" perspective. For them, it is a job. It is plaster, and fiberglass, and plastic.

You can't project your love for a character or a character's "iconic status" years later as measure for what prop makers would and wouldn't have done during production.

 

[SithLord]

Here's the same ROTJ original mask. Even if they cleaned it up, there's no way that that is a re-used ESB. They would have to fill the previous strap slot hole, there would have been some evidence of repair....and all WITHIN THE MOUNTING BASE WITHOUT REMOVING IT. :rolleyes

 

[SithLord]

I really wish you were kidding. :confused


.

I am not kidding. What is there to kid about? The ROTJ and ROTS are clearly the same size in that Celebration IV photograph. If anything the ROTJ is a bit smaller even. I've shown a photograph of an authentic ANH and ROTS side by side. The ANH would be on par with an ESB in terms of size so there is a BIG difference. It is a simple correlation and proof.

 

[GINO]

What are you talking about repair?
Some of the ESB/ROTJ helmets had tab remnants, others were completely removed.
BEFORE the ring was added.

I don't understand how you could not see the obvious, even when it is repeated so many times.


.

 

[ArtisanProps]

Just another opinion. Its not only fanboys perspective. Missing time and money is NO reason also.

Nick, If prop makers didn't cut corners to save time and money, then there
would be no such thing as "Found Parts" Many of the parts we hunt for today
were probably just sitting in one of their bins waiting to be used......

 

[SithLord]

Here again is the same mask from CIV you said was original ROTJ.

And do you know actually how long it would take to make all of the changes to this mask that this shows?

1. Fill in tube undercut.
2. Reduce depth of teeth.
3. Cut teeth gaps wider.
4. Reshape U-shaped part of nose.
5. Narrow nosebridge.
6. Add to interior of eyes and smooth.
7. Smooth eyebrows down.
8. Smooth out the inside of the mouth triangle.
9. Sand down Vader's right front face of the cheek (to reduce the curvature from that ANH paint blemish).
10. Not to mention sanding down every single surface of the mask, and prepping for finishing, and finishing, and adding the hardware.

Do you know how much time that would take to do to each mask?

Honestly, what a complete waste of time.

 

[Darth Niob]

Nick, If prop makers didn't cut corners to save time and money, then there
would be no such thing as "Found Parts" Many of the parts we hunt for today
were probably just sitting in one of their bins waiting to be used......

Maybe Doug, maybe...but its not proven fact and its also possible like i said it before.There stands one argument against the other....and that seems to be part of this hobby

 

[ArtisanProps]

The ROTJ and ROTS are clearly the same size in that Celebration IV photograph. If anything the ROTJ is a bit smaller even. I've shown a photograph of an authentic ANH and ROTS side by side. The ANH would be on par with an ESB in terms of size so there is a BIG difference. It is a simple correlation and proof.

I agree :confused

 

[SithLord]

Gino thinks that these are both original ESB.