Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[ArtisanProps]

Had to edit what I said.. ...... Getting tired.... Must sleep.............zzzzzzzzzzz

 

[GINO]

It's okay.
JoeR is a regular hater in my threads.


.

 

[ArtisanProps]

Yeah I can tell lol

 

[RBJ]

I'm really leaving this time.

--Don

Oh no you don't , Mister! :lolNot until you go give that ANH in the archives the once over!

 

[ArtisanProps]

Oh yeah, I just wanted to eho what you said, Gino, about casting....
Measurements are difinitely not the best indicator for proving a cast is
authentic.. I've got enough experience to definitely back you up on that.....

You can approximate something, but that's about it.. There's just way too many
variables that could make a casting shrink...


What's up Jay
I agree.. Don needs to bring a camera to work and snap some Vader Porn

 

[GINO]

Measurements are difinitely not the best indicator for proving a cast is authentic..

Agreed. But it's not so much about proving/disproving whether something is authentic.

What Thomas does is attempt to use his measurements to determine which casting came first, second, third, etc..
For example (and I'm not exaggerating), if he has two castings, and one of the measurements is .05" smaller than the other, he concludes 'empirically' that the .05" casting must be of later lineage than the other.

Which is utterly...ridiculous.

Castings from the same mold can vary so much more than that. It is just totally unreliable to determine anything.

He then uses all these measurements to graph out which of the authentic fan castings came out first, second, etc... with much error.

.

 

[SithLord]

All of the ROTJ helmets were refurbished ESB helmets.

Not all of the ESB helmets were refurbished for ROTJ.

Where do you get this stuff Thomas? Show me where Gino said "ALL the ESB helmets were made into ROTJ helmets and there are none of the ESB left"

No I said that Gino says that ALL the ROTJ helmets came from ESB. Do we have a confirmed number of how many ROTJ helmets were made? How many ESB? I didn't say he said ALL the ESB were made into ROTJ but rather that for whatever number of ROTJ helmets there were, there would have to be at least that many ESB that contributed directly to them. And if the numbers were similar, that would represent most if not all of the ESB helmets.

Assuming you are getting your measurements directly from screen used original helmets and assuming I dont buy into your "shorter neck" ROTJ theory which I have heard you mention before and I assume is what you mean when you say the ROTJ helmets had "different proportion", what is to say that the original castings from the same mold didnt vary in size as they are known to do?

No I don't mean the neck as that can be either a result of the mold or a matter of trimming. It was mentioned on TPD that Brian's mask has a shorter neck and I pointed out a screen ROTJ mask with a similar length neck to show that Brian's mask neck length doesn't discount it as being ROTJ.

Maybe your measurements (which must be from an original screen used helmet and not a collectors casting) just happened to be smaller on the ROTJ reburbished mask than the other original helmets you have measurements from.

I'm just saying that if the ROTS was based on a ROTJ that itself was an original ESB at one point, it shouldn't be that small, even taking into account the duplication of one half of the face. Even Ivo mentioned in the DVD they had to aesthetically deal with the space between the mask and helmet with extra detail to fill in that space (the channels above the tusk tubes).

 

[ArtisanProps]

Agreed. But it's not so much about proving/disproving whether something is authentic.

What Thomas does is attempt to use his measurements to determine which casting came first, second, third, etc..
For example (and I'm not exaggerating), if he has two castings, and one of the measurements is .05" smaller than the other, he concludes 'empirically' that the .05" casting must be of later lineage than the other.

Which is utterly...ridiculous.

Actually, Yes, that's what I meant. I should have eloborated more.. Sorry for
the confusion

Absolutely impossible to tell which helmet came first by size.. No way, not
when it comes to gelcoat and fiberglass

 

[Davy Jones]

No I said that Gino says that ALL the ROTJ helmets came from ESB.

That is correct then. Both in the sense of that is what he said and what the evidence suggests.

I misread your original post and have edited mine. Too many times seeing the letters ESB ROTJ ANH ESB ROTJ ESB have hurt my brain I think.:wacko

 

[JoeR]

It's okay.
JoeR is a regular hater in my threads.


.

Certainly am and proud! :lol

In all seriousness, this has been an interesting thread.

Joe

 

[wannab]

OK, I have a question.
When it is said all the ROTJ are reworked ESB's, does that mean all of the ESB's were reworked OR just enough for ROTJ? Example, if say 12 were made for ESB, they could have taken just 6 of those and reworked them for ROTJ leaving the ESB's that are said to still be in tact? Just trying sort a point not clarified.


Doug

 

[Darth Niob]

OK, I have a question.
When it is said all the ROTJ are reworked ESB's, does that mean all of the ESB's were reworked OR just enough for ROTJ? Example, if say 12 were made for ESB, they could have taken just 6 of those and reworked them for ROTJ leaving the ESB's that are said to still be in tact? Just trying sort a point not clarified.


Doug

Would be the only possibility, otherwise all 6 know ESB casts, except the PA stunt would be refurbished if this should be the case.
But who knows if we ever will found it this:rolleyes

 

[wannab]

So how detailed were the work orders, inventory and such back in the day? Maybe there are files that could be thumbed through -- any such paperwork in the archives?


Doug

 

[Darth Niob]

So how detailed were the work orders, inventory and such back in the day? Maybe there are files that could be thumbed through -- any such paperwork in the archives?


Doug

I think you were the king here if you could bring such lists (if they exist) to public:lol
But i think its possible. Would like to hear statements of the artists who work on that masks during production. They should have to most detailed facts we all would like to know.

 

[SithLord]

It looks EXACTLY like the original. Same exact found part tabs and everything. I'd show a pic of it, but there are some aspects regarding the ANH mounting mechs that have not yet made it out into the public. Once they've made it out, I'll be free to show some pics.

Sorry but it is all out there. You have nothing to protect that isn't known already. Three 3M tabs on the mask screwed and glued in place, three inside the helmet with a spacer. You've seen the 20th C, TM, and TD tabs and know what authentic tabs look like. If your tabs are like 20th C, I'll know the difference. If they are like TM, I'll know the difference. If they are like TD, I'll know the difference. You know exactly the kind of scrutiny whatever it is you have will fall under and that is why you won't show it. You think the screen ANH was like the MP? Nope.

Fiberglass patterns? Type of resin? Are you kidding?
Black gelcoat, fiberglass matte. All of them.
Have you ever made molds, castings of anything yourself?
I don't think you realize just how very common those features are.

Gee let's see. Mat glass comes in different weaves and weights. There are different ways of laying the mats. There are also many different kinds of resin (isophthalic, polyester, crystic), and different types of gelcoat. There may or may not be wax suspended in the resin. There could be the combined use of cloth and mat. And so on. If you tell me every mask looks exactly the same inside then one doesn't have to be an expert to know that simply isn't the case.

This is just hogwash. I have to say one of the worst things you try to bust out with when you are 'comparing' castings is measurements. Do you realize that there are a ton of factors that can cause a polyester/fiberglass casting from the exact same mold to vary in size? Sometimes rather dramatically? The amount of catalyst, the temp of the mold, the humidity, the room temp.
Of course you wouldn't, because you've never cast/molded/fiberglassed anything in your life.

You are out of your element Donnie!

I'm sorry to say that any "research" you've done and call 'empirical' based on measurements of these fiberglass castings is TOTALLY WORTHLESS.

Please stop. For the children.

Well what you fail to appreciate is that the differences among castings from similar sources is very small, and from similar molds even smaller, but the trend in relation to the lineage of ANH/ESB/ROTJ and later on is clear if you take the time to look.

Which is earlier? Which is authentic? Perhaps you don't care because you like to think your own helmets are all 1st gen. According to you, the size differences shown here are just based on variability between pulls from different molds and have nothing to do with lineage. For someone to be entirely complacent when it comes to something that important is surprising given your otherwise passionate devotion to authenticity.

According to Gino, I know nothing about authenticity....I let you be the judge.

 

[SithLord]

Oh yeah, I just wanted to eho what you said, Gino, about casting....
Measurements are difinitely not the best indicator for proving a cast is
authentic.. I've got enough experience to definitely back you up on that.....

Experience with what? Chestboxes? :rolleyes

 

[Trap Joe]

Does knowing more about props make one person better than another Gino? Do you judge your self worth by how much more you know than another fan?

You both need to grow up. This thread has been very informative and that is great for the community. It doesn't matter who has more secret pictures, or is right more of the time, the community knowledge base has expanded and that is good for everyone.

Why don't you just compare your d*ck sizes and get it over with? :lol

Joe

Joe, I guess someone here is badly "consumed by the dark side".
And never grew up. In a negative aspect.
Repeating Don Bies: play along

Besides: IT`S A GREAT THREAD with much great info! Should be archived!:thumbsup

 

[Darth Niob]

I love that group photo:love

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Experience with what? Chestboxes? :rolleyes

Wow Thomas, that is low. You haven't crafted a thing to call Doug out like that.

 

[ArtisanProps]

That's Ok Qui, looks like he's just a little upset that he's wrong, so he
decided to pick on me lol Way to go Thomas, That's acting like an adult...

Thomas you have no idea of the experience I have in fiberglass and besides
the Chest Boxes were cast in Resin not Gelcoat and fiberglass

Thomas you can't just quote something off of google and say you know about
it's usage and application because that stuff doesn't work in the real world..