Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[Anakin Starkiller]

Whoever made this collage seems to be a bit confused by lens distortion. The same helmet can look different when shot from different distances. As these all appear to be the same exact helmet except for 2 down 3 across, that is a different helmet or at least different paint job. You can even see the same paint chips on the right cheek in many of the shots.

Dan

Any clarification on this picture would be great.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

Whoever made this collage seems to be a bit confused by lens distortion. The same helmet can look different when shot from different distances. As these all appear to be the same exact helmet except for 2 down 3 across, that is a different helmet or at least different paint job. You can even see the same paint chips on the right cheek in many of the shots.

Dan

This pic was on the RPF probably 5-6-7 years ago.

 

[GINO]

Those are all the exact same helmet.

That looks like one of Sithlord's weird comps from back in the day when he thought there were like 8 helmets used in ANH. :lol

The ANH dome due to the mounting mech can vary in position greatly.
Whatever position it is in when you pop it on, it will stay in that place until you pop it back off.
Every time you reposition it, it is in a slightly different spot.

.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

Those are all the exact same helmet.

.

Thanks ! All these years I've always wondered if there were different domes in ANH.

 

[artoo77]

I happened to get a look at one of the archive face masks today--the ones called ESB/ROJ...I agree with Gino's assessment that the mounting ring was not molded in, but added on top of a "bald" face casting, as he suggested. It is a clean job, and at first glance (which is the extent I've previously looked at it), it looks like it could be molded in, but it does not appear to be that way...and I was incorrect.

Now Gino, don't let this go to your head...

I'm not sure it was a "found" part as you mentioned; my guess is that they machined them--unless you know where they found the part.

--Don (ok, I'm not always right) Bies

 

[RBJ]

Thanks again for sharing, Don!

That's awesome..just go have a peek in the archives :lol ..any chance you can get a good look at the ANH Vader you mentioned was in there?

Regarding the ring being added after ..I always thought it would be difficult to release a faceplate from a mold if the ring was part of the casting...

 

[GINO]

I happened to get a look at one of the archive face masks today--the ones called ESB/ROJ...I agree with Gino's assessment that the mounting ring was not molded in, but added on top of a "bald" face casting, as he suggested. It is a clean job, and at first glance (which is the extent I've previously looked at it), it looks like it could be molded in, but it does not appear to be that way...and I was incorrect.

Now Gino, don't let this go to your head...

No worries there. :thumbsup

I'm not sure it was a "found" part as you mentioned; my guess is that they machined them--unless you know where they found the part.

It's a found part, but it's plastic and not metal.

--Gino (I'm not always right either, although people always THINK that I think I am) S.

 

[artoo77]

It's a found part, but it's plastic and not metal.

--Gino (I'm not always right either, although people always THINK that I think I am) S.

I agree it's plastic; I'm guessing ABS, personally. And plastic can be machined. But if you know that it was a found part...mind sharing what it was?

--Don

 

[GINO]

Doh! :confused

.

 

[artoo77]

Thanks again for sharing, Don!

That's awesome..just go have a peek in the archives :lol ..any chance you can get a good look at the ANH Vader you mentioned was in there?

Regarding the ring being added after ..I always thought it would be difficult to release a faceplate from a mold if the ring was part of the casting...

Nope, didn't look at the presumed ANH mask....though Gino posted pics of the one in the archives, and it obviously has a different clip system then seen in "The Making of..."

So potentially, that makes Gino correct again...

--Don

 

[SithLord]

Yes, definitively, the rings were added to the ROTJ helmets.
BECAUSE THEY WERE ADDED TO THE ESB HELMETS, AND THE ROTJ HELMETS WERE THE ESB HELMETS.

Ok so Don confirmed that a ROTJ in the archives has an added ring base. Good. And Gino, where did you get one of Vadermania's archive photos from?

So? All that proves is that the ROTJ template didn't have a mounting base or ring as part of the mold....aka....like Brian Muir's helmet. So the ROTJ masks could have come from a ROTJ mold....there is nothing to suggest that just because they have an added mounting base that they would have to come from ESB no more than if the ESB had added tabs that would mean they came from ANH. :confused

If Brian's casting looks like a base casting (ANH style) then that is consistent with just another pull being taken out of the mold from a crew guy at the time.
Happened all the time.

Ya, a crew guy during the production of ROTJ. The fact that there are ROTJ masks without molded bases supports the identity of Brian's mask.

Don't you realize that you and Brian have just validated my point?

On the contrary, it has been further invalidated for lack of proof that every one of the ROTJ helmets were modded ESBs.

To say Brian's casting was a base style ANH version helmet (out of the ANH mold, which also created the ESB helmets), is essentially exactly what I've been saying.

You've been saying that the ROTJ masks/helmets were original ESB, not that they were ANH templates from an ANH mold which is what Brian's might be.

Only Brian's helmet was not converted at all into anything, like most of the helmets crew members made that left the studio.

So? Brian knows an artisan who worked on ROTJ and who states that the helmet is from ROTJ. If it is not, then it is just an ANH-like template with no significance.

The best reality that Brian can hope for in regards to his helmet is this.
Just...another...casting made from the same old ANH molds that happened to be around the studio during ROTJ.

Molds just don't "happen to be around". If they are taken out of storage then it would be for a purpose, namely to make ROTJ helmets. But from this it sounds like you are conceding that Brian's helmet could be from ROTJ but not made for ROTJ (?).

 

[SithLord]

I would shoot for during the tour. Early Eller pictures show the "as seen in ANH" helmet, with scuffs and nicks, but at the footprint ceremony and Chronicles photoshoot the helmet is suddenly cleaned up and repainted. Likely it was molded for the SL/DJ style mold then.

The clean-up seen on the SL/DJ helmets correspond with later pictures during the tour, not the earlier ones, where the helmet was still looking rough.

Did the tour helmets have the tabs? If not... was the ILM mold only used for tour pieces and the UK mold used for the screen helmets?

There was a repaint by the time of the Jefferson Starship photos, which was June 27th, 1977. But not when the helmet was at DP studios, which is when Kermit was trying on the suit. The repaint was on the neck area. You cannot compare the SL and DJ because the DJ was cleaned up prior to finishing, the SL is raw. And the SL has the detail of the mask prior to the repaint, so prior to the tour. But I've not even shown any photos of the SL for someone to be able to judge that level of detail.

 

[artoo77]

Yikes!

What did I step into the middle of?

Guess I have to read-up on past discussions/arguments.

Now that I've stirred it up, I'm stepping away.

Try and play nice, everyone.

--Don Bies

 

[SithLord]

All the domes for the OT are the same length.

There is no conclusive proof how many helmets were made for ANH.
There was only 1 helmet seen on screen.
But it would stand to reason they had a couple just in case.
Who knows what would have happened to them.

.

Hello, we have someone here that was there at the time and has stated there were three pulls. The one we see onscreen goes through slight changes during the production resulting from wear/breakage of tusks. However, in the Death Star detention scene with Leia, I found recently that the mouth grill of that mask is different from any other instance in ANH I can see...typically we see just the one mouth grill alignment but in that scene and perhaps earlier ones (I like the early Tarkin scenes) it could be a different mask....but odds are against that since the grill could just have been replaced and there is no good left side image of that scene.

My avatar incidentally shows what I think is a second original ANH helmet, FYI. Painted differently, with a different mouth grill, and a different dome. But uniquely ANH. The photo is from a complete original ANH suit photo with Bob Anderson in the suit. I would have thought it is just a tour helmet, but it is unlike any helmet I've seen, except that the dome appears to be the precursor of the ESB domes.

 

[Davy Jones]

You've been saying that the ROTJ masks/helmets were original ESB, not that they were ANH templates from an ANH mold which is what Brian's might be.

For god's sake stop it.

He said many times that all of the film helmets start as ANH stlye.

As I understand it the original ANH helmet(s) came from a mold made before the movie was finished.

Then after the movie was finished the screen used ANH helmet was molded to create a mold that is well known among collectors.

Sometime after ANH, that mold was used to create a bunch of helmets which then had their widows peak, chin triagle, and mounting rings worked on and added by hand.

Now you have a bunch of helmets that came out of the mold looking like ANH helmets but no longer look like ANH helmets.
They look like ESB helmets and were used in that movie.
Then some of those ESB helmets were refurbished and used in ROTJ.

One mold for all helmets used in ESB and ROTJ.
BUT all helmets from all 3 movies started their lives looking like an ANH helmet.

Right?

 

[SithLord]

Any clarification on this picture would be great.

Yes that's one of my early comparisons. I was attempting to catalog what I thought were distinctive features of the ANH helmet(s) during filming but turned out to be just changes in the wear and tear of the mask or as someone mentioned the angle of the dome since if it sits back more then the eyebrow flarings look smaller.

 

[GINO]

For god's sake stop it.

He said many times that all of the film helmets start as ANH stlye.

As I understand it the original ANH helmet(s) came from a mold made before the movie was finished.

Then after the movie was finished the screen used ANH helmet was molded to create a mold that is well known among collectors.

Sometime after ANH, that mold was used to create a bunch of helmets which then had their widows peak, chin triagle, and mounting rings worked on and added by hand.

Now you have a bunch of helmets that came out of the mold looking like ANH helmets but no longer look like ANH helmets.
They look like ESB helmets and were used in that movie.
Then some of those ESB helmets were refurbished and used in ROTJ.

One mold for all helmets used in ESB and ROTJ.
BUT all helmets from all 3 movies started their lives looking like an ANH helmet.

Right?

Right!


.

 

[SithLord]

Whoever made this collage seems to be a bit confused by lens distortion. The same helmet can look different when shot from different distances. As these all appear to be the same exact helmet except for 2 down 3 across, that is a different helmet or at least different paint job. You can even see the same paint chips on the right cheek in many of the shots.

Dan

Actually that photo is from the Darth Vader poster from 77 with Kermit wearing it so that's the original screen helmet it turns out....after a repaint.

 

[GINO]

Yes that's one of my early comparisons. I was attempting to catalog what I thought were distinctive features of the ANH helmet(s) during filming but turned out to be just changes in the wear and tear of the mask or as someone mentioned the angle of the dome since if it sits back more then the eyebrow flarings look smaller.

HA HA! I knew it. :lol

.

 

[SithLord]

I happened to get a look at one of the archive face masks today--the ones called ESB/ROJ...I agree with Gino's assessment that the mounting ring was not molded in, but added on top of a "bald" face casting, as he suggested. It is a clean job, and at first glance (which is the extent I've previously looked at it), it looks like it could be molded in, but it does not appear to be that way...and I was incorrect.

Now Gino, don't let this go to your head...

I'm not sure it was a "found" part as you mentioned; my guess is that they machined them--unless you know where they found the part.

--Don (ok, I'm not always right) Bies

That's terrific, Don, thanks for checking that for us. I was also curious because the one that Gino showed a photo of had such a clean base it was hard to tell if it was molded or not.