Origins of the ROTJ Vader helmets: JY thread continuation

[SithLord]

Nope, didn't look at the presumed ANH mask....though Gino posted pics of the one in the archives, and it obviously has a different clip system then seen in "The Making of..."

So potentially, that makes Gino correct again...

--Don

Which pics?

 

[lonepigeon]

Do you guys just argue for the fun of it?

On the contrary, it has been further invalidated for lack of proof that every one of the ROTJ helmets were modded ESBs.

Logic would dictate that the burden of proof is on the "made for ROTJ" theory. That's the unproven theory. ESB's modded for ROTJ is an accepted fact.

Is there a pic of Brian's helmet?

Is the debate here that it came out of the same mold as the ANH or a mold of the ANH (or which 2 are known to exist)?
Seems like it's basically proven that all mods were done to the helmets individually so a raw out of mold could not be dated ESB or ROTJ. No reason at all for more molds to be made specifically for ROTJ if no new features were incorporated into the mask castings.

 

[GINO]

...it can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel remorse...and it absolutely will not stop, until you get so exhausted that you just stop responding altogether.

Brian knows an artisan who worked on ROTJ and who states that the helmet is from ROTJ.

I believe that. I believe that it was probably made during the production of ROTJ. Just not specifically for the film.
Most likely a take home souvenir which was very common in those days.
I also believe that a lot of the authentic casts some of us are lucky enough to have are due to such phenomena.

If it is not, then it is just an ANH-like template with no significance.

Right on.
That doesn't mean it's not still a very cool piece.

Molds just don't "happen to be around". If they are taken out of storage then it would be for a purpose, namely to make ROTJ helmets. But from this it sounds like you are conceding that Brian's helmet could be from ROTJ but not made for ROTJ (?).

Storage? Those crew guys had access to all the molds at any given time during the production. I'm sure a vader helmet cast was quite popular amongst them.
There's nothing for me to concede, I've always said I believe Brian's helmet could have been made during the production of ROTJ, just not made FOR ROTJ. It could also be a promo casting of that era, but I haven't seen enough good shots of it to make an assessment either way.


Are we getting any closer to agreeing here because this is getting exhausting.
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[GINO]

Do you guys just argue for the fun of it?

Logic would dictate that the burden of proof is on the "made for ROTJ" theory. That's the unproven theory. ESB's modded for ROTJ is an accepted fact.

Is there a pic of Brian's helmet?

Is the debate here that it came out of the same mold as the ANH or a mold of the ANH (or which 2 are known to exist)?
Seems like it's basically proven that all mods were done to the helmets individually so a raw out of mold could not be dated ESB or ROTJ. No reason at all for more molds to be made specifically for ROTJ if no new features were incorporated into the mask castings.

Word to the mutha. :thumbsup

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[Davy Jones]

Do you guys just argue for the fun of it?

Am not.:cool

 

[artoo77]

Which pics?

Sorry, it wasn't Gino...it was Hal9000

I'm really leaving this time.

--Don

 

[defstartrooper]

Sorry, it wasn't Gino...it was Hal9000

I'm really leaving this time.

--Don

It's like crack :lol

 

[SithLord]

For god's sake stop it.

He said many times that all of the film helmets start as ANH stlye.

No, he is has always said that the ROTJ helmets came from ESB. We all knwo that the ESB were derived from the single screen ANH, and not reused (at least let us hope not!!!).

As I understand it the original ANH helmet(s) came from a mold made before the movie was finished.

Not sure why you say before the movie was finished. Of course the mold based off Brian Muir's plaster master was made in 1976 early in the production. Three pulls give or take came from that original secondary mold.

Then after the movie was finished the screen used ANH helmet was molded to create a mold that is well known among collectors.

Well the time of the mold being made is debatable. But it is certainly before the ANH tour. Either during or between the pickups and the beginning of the tour.

Sometime after ANH, that mold was used to create a bunch of helmets which then had their widows peak, chin triagle, and mounting rings worked on and added by hand.

Now you have a bunch of helmets that came out of the mold looking like ANH helmets but no longer look like ANH helmets.
They look like ESB helmets and were used in that movie.

Well no actually it seems the ILM mold wasn't the one that led to the ESB helmets, but rather a mold possibly made in the UK from the screen helmet possibly prior to production's end. Apart from many differences, the obvious one being the ILM mold being taken from the screen mask after the tabs were removed and the tab holes filled in. And the tabs we see in the castings from the UK and on the later ESB castings are consistent with the glue remnants on the screen mask when the tabs were removed, indicating an earlier molding of the screen mask (possibly the helmet?). The obvious question that comes from this sequence is did they add tabs back for the tour? If so are they different from the tabs we see on authentic or original castings? It is possible and have studied it from photos but am not yet 100% sure.

Then some of those ESB helmets were refurbished and used in ROTJ.

Well how many exactly? Gino says ALL, not SOME. If there were at least six in ESB and at least six in ROTJ, that would be all.

One mold for all helmets used in ESB and ROTJ.
BUT all helmets from all 3 movies started their lives looking like an ANH helmet.

Right?

Well what Gino was arguing clearly was that the ESB helmets became the ROTJ helmets so it wasn't an issue before the Brian Muir ROTJ helmet that it was from the same single mold. But now it is being painted that way.

Look, if all the ROTJ helmets are ESB then show it or prove it. If you cannot because they are so over-finished then what is the evidence? I've already stated an argument against it based on the size of the original ROTJ and ROTS masks in relation to original ANH/ESB. They should all be the same and they are not.

 

[SithLord]

Do you guys just argue for the fun of it?



Logic would dictate that the burden of proof is on the "made for ROTJ" theory. That's the unproven theory. ESB's modded for ROTJ is an accepted fact.

A subset, but all? That's the issue here. Gino says all the helmets in ROTJ were ESB originals.

Let's be clear here....which original ROTJ helmets seen onscreen are ESB?

Is there a pic of Brian's helmet?

Join us at the Prop Den for discussion of original and tour Vader castings. :lol

Is the debate here that it came out of the same mold as the ANH or a mold of the ANH (or which 2 are known to exist)?

Gino says the ROTJ helmets....ALL of them....are modded original ESB helmets. Based on the known existence of some of the ESB helmets in private collections...how can that be true? And independent of that, all authentic ROTJ castings are too small and of different proportion to be ESB. That is a simple empirical fact. If the ROTJ were truly ESB, then any masks coming from ROTJ originals would be proportioned like ANH/ESB and they are not, yet the original ROTS is proportioned like ROTJ castings.

Seems like it's basically proven that all mods were done to the helmets individually so a raw out of mold could not be dated ESB or ROTJ.

Well yes that would apply to Brian's helmet, but not to ROTJ helmets which are recognizable as such and should be, apart from the slight modifications, identical to ESB in every way.

No reason at all for more molds to be made specifically for ROTJ if no new features were incorporated into the mask castings.

So if there were perfectly good molds then why reuse years-old castings for a new production when people were hired to produce new props?

Sorry Don we scared you away....but it would be great if you could confirm this one question here whether the ROTJ helmets all came from ESB? Because it seems that Brian's source produced a helmet that was a production helmet rather than an incidental pull. Maybe Brian's source knows Don Bies? But of course things can get a bit complicated with that... :confused

 

[Davy Jones]

A subset, but all? That's the issue here. Gino says all the helmets in ROTJ were ESB originals.

Let's be clear here....which original ROTJ helmets seen onscreen are ESB?

All of the ROTJ helmets were refurbished ESB helmets.

Based on the known existence of some of the ESB helmets in private collections...how can that be true? And independent of that, all authentic ROTJ castings are too small and of different proportion to be ESB. That is a simple empirical fact. If the ROTJ were truly ESB, then any masks coming from ROTJ originals would be proportioned like ANH/ESB and they are not, yet the original ROTS is proportioned like ROTJ castings.

Assuming you are getting your measurements directly from screen used original helmets and assuming I dont buy into your "shorter neck" ROTJ theory which I have heard you mention before and I assume is what you mean when you say the ROTJ helmets had "different proportion", what is to say that the original castings from the same mold didnt vary in size as they are known to do?
Maybe your measurements (which must be from an original screen used helmet and not a collectors casting) just happened to be smaller on the ROTJ reburbished mask than the other original helmets you have measurements from.


There are enough posts without having to explain everything twice.

 

[SithLord]

...it can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel remorse...and it absolutely will not stop, until you get so exhausted that you just stop responding altogether.

I like this. Thanks for the kind compliments.

I believe that. I believe that it was probably made during the production of ROTJ. Just not specifically for the film.
Most likely a take home souvenir which was very common in those days.

Well it is possible that it is, but then that would be discounting Brian's source. One would think if he knows someone who worked on ROTJ that they would have some idea of the significance of that casting.

I also believe that a lot of the authentic casts some of us are lucky enough to have are due to such phenomena.

Ahh, you mean like yours? In spite of my efforts to "address" your Vader helmets you seem reticent to explain their source. Your ESB/ROTJ would have to be from castings which had the mounting base added on and not molded in, right? And who knows what the top of your ANH mask looks like.... :confused

There's nothing for me to concede, I've always said I believe Brian's helmet could have been made during the production of ROTJ, just not made FOR ROTJ. It could also be a promo casting of that era, but I haven't seen enough good shots of it to make an assessment either way.

Well you softened your stance then because before you would just state that Brian is "misinformed" about the source.

I know we can go all day with this, but I want proof that ALL of the ROTJ helmets are ESB. What about fiberglass patterns? What about the type of resin used? What about tab remnants on the ROTJ masks?

All we would need is two simple measurements of the mask that Don Bies examined recently and that would prove my point without any doubt whatsoever. For Gino's theory to hold up, that mask would have to be ESB-sized, not what I think is ROTJ size. If it is, then I would be more inclined to believe the ESB to ROTJ theory. Better yet let me check those measurements myself. :love :lol Of course if the mask Don examined is known to be actually an ESB reworked mask, then it should be the same size as one that is just labeled "ROTJ" rather than "ESB/ROTJ". It could be labeled ESB/ROTJ because whomever labeled it can't tell the difference.

 

[GINO]

Omg.

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[CSMacLaren]

 

[Trap Joe]

I happened to get a look at one of the archive face masks today--the ones called ESB/ROJ...I agree with Gino's assessment that the mounting ring was not molded in, but added on top of a "bald" face casting, as he suggested. It is a clean job, and at first glance (which is the extent I've previously looked at it), it looks like it could be molded in, but it does not appear to be that way...and I was incorrect.

Now Gino, don't let this go to your head...

I'm not sure it was a "found" part as you mentioned; my guess is that they machined them--unless you know where they found the part.

--Don (ok, I'm not always right) Bies

Thank you for looking at it. It´s so great that we have you into that (partly amusing) thread.
You are the man!

BR Jörg

 

[ArtisanProps]

Didn't both Don and Brian just confirm Gino is right?

Thomas, wouldn't it stand to reason that if they modified 1 or 2 of the
ESB helmets, that they would just modify all of them. So what your basically
saying is thay modded a couple ESB's and still made a new mold?

Come on Thomas, you can do it.. Just say the magic words.. "your right Gino"

 

[GINO]

Well it is possible that it is, but then that would be discounting Brian's source. One would think if he knows someone who worked on ROTJ that they would have some idea of the significance of that casting.

Pretty much. I think you put WAY too much faith in people who are connected to the films in some way. That has always been one of your big downfalls even back during the Andrew Ainsworth days.
These guys can provide great insights, but you should know by now not to take everything they say as gospel. They don't know/remember this stuff to the level in which we scrutinize it.

Ahh, you mean like yours? In spite of my efforts to "address" your Vader helmets you seem reticent to explain their source.

Yes, like mine, yours and a lot of other people. But this isn't about my helmets.

Your ESB/ROTJ would have to be from castings which had the mounting base added on and not molded in, right?

Of course silly.

And who knows what the top of your ANH mask looks like.... :confused

It looks EXACTLY like the original. Same exact found part tabs and everything. I'd show a pic of it, but there are some aspects regarding the ANH mounting mechs that have not yet made it out into the public. Once they've made it out, I'll be free to show some pics.

Well you softened your stance then because before you would just state that Brian is "misinformed" about the source.

I didn't soften my stance at all. If he or his contact believes that helmet was one actually made FOR the ROTJ production, they are "misinformed".

I know we can go all day with this, but I want proof that ALL of the ROTJ helmets are ESB.

You got all you're going to get from me on that subject.

What about fiberglass patterns? What about the type of resin used? What about tab remnants on the ROTJ masks?

Fiberglass patterns? Type of resin? Are you kidding?
Black gelcoat, fiberglass matte. All of them.
Have you ever made molds, castings of anything yourself?
I don't think you realize just how very common those features are.

About the tab remnants on the ROTJ helmets, I already said in this thread that some have remnants, and others have been sanded and smoothed completely over. Of all the helmets I've seen, about half of them are one way, and half the other.

All we would need is two simple measurements of the mask that Don Bies examined recently and that would prove my point without any doubt whatsoever. For Gino's theory to hold up, that mask would have to be ESB-sized, not what I think is ROTJ size. If it is, then I would be more inclined to believe the ESB to ROTJ theory. Better yet let me check those measurements myself. :love :lol Of course if the mask Don examined is known to be actually an ESB reworked mask, then it should be the same size as one that is just labeled "ROTJ" rather than "ESB/ROTJ". It could be labeled ESB/ROTJ because whomever labeled it can't tell the difference.

This is just hogwash. I have to say one of the worst things you try to bust out with when you are 'comparing' castings is measurements. Do you realize that there are a ton of factors that can cause a polyester/fiberglass casting from the exact same mold to vary in size? Sometimes rather dramatically? The amount of catalyst, the temp of the mold, the humidity, the room temp.
Of course you wouldn't, because you've never cast/molded/fiberglassed anything in your life.

You are out of your element Donnie!

I'm sorry to say that any "research" you've done and call 'empirical' based on measurements of these fiberglass castings is TOTALLY WORTHLESS.

Please stop. For the children.


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[Onigiri]

Ive seen different helmets cast from the same mold at different times come out differently including size. Measurements are NOT a clear indicator.

 

[GINO]

Thomas, wouldn't it stand to reason that if they modified 1 or 2 of the ESB helmets, that they would just modify all of them. So what your basically saying is thay modded a couple ESB's and still made a new mold?

Please don't confuse him with reason and logic.

Come on Thomas, you can do it.. Just say the magic words.. "your right Gino"

Of all the times over the years that I've proven myself right when ferociously arguing with Thomas, he's NEVER conceded anything to me. Ever.
Even when later on I see he's adopted my stance, he still has never even given a mere 'oops, my bad'.


I don't expect one in regards to this either.


.

 

[JoeR]

Does knowing more about props make one person better than another Gino? Do you judge your self worth by how much more you know than another fan?

You both need to grow up. This thread has been very informative and that is great for the community. It doesn't matter who has more secret pictures, or is right more of the time, the community knowledge base has expanded and that is good for everyone.

Why don't you just compare your d*ck sizes and get it over with? :lol

Joe

 

[GINO]

Does knowing more about props make one person better than another Gino? Do you judge your self worth by how much more you know than another fan?

ABSOLUTELY NOT on both counts.
But if I'm going to be wrongly called out for not knowing what I'm talking about, you have to expect that I'm going to address that person with a little bit of attitude.

It doesn't matter who has more secret pictures, or is right more of the time...

Actually it kind of does. Because if someone over a long period of time ends up being right more of the time, you'd think they'd get the benefit of the doubt. You'd think.


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