Obi ANH saber--revisiting the top ring 'notch' theory

[Serafino]

So there's a blob on the frag bevel ring in the Mechanismo and recent LFL pics, and Gav agrees with Roman that it means there are notches in the top ring of the prop grenade.

I think this is a misreading of the evidence for the following reasons.

In the Chronicles 'transistor' photo, an unbroken edge highlight is clearly visible in an area where a 'notch' would appear.

In the Mechanismo photo:

A second area (circled) where a notch would appear does not show one. Admittedly the resolution is not enough to be conclusive either way in this area, so call that a wash.

The 'blob' (short lines) is not aligned with the edges of the cut leading up to it (long lines), and shows no signs of depth. It is 'some' evidence for 'a' notch, but not even conclusive for that much, let alone for notches all the way around.

The LFL pic does show an apparent notch with a shadow which is dark enough to imply depth, but if it is the same one as in the Mechanismo pic it is in the wrong place. It may be a result of later damage rather than a cutter mark.

So there is clear evidence for one area with definitely NO notch, and questionable evidence for one area with maybe 'one' cutter notch. I don't see how that leads to the conclusion that the frag bevel ring is notched.

 

[JunkSabers1138]

I believe that a notch is there. It's how it got there is what baffles me. Your long red lines don't line up with the frag edges. If you worked them out a little bit better the lines would line up more. At least that's what I see. I could be wrong.

Also, I'm beginning to accept the hopelessness of finding the original Obi ANH prop, but I'm still skeptical on how they lost the Luke ROTJ V2 prop. If they still have the hero saber (as seen in some old photos) and the stunt saber (now going around posing as the hero), how could they lose the V2? Surely it wasn't stolen because the hero was a cleaner nicer looking prop and if there was any stealing involved, I'd bet that the hero would get stolen out of all of them.

 

[Serafino]

<div class='quotetop'>(JunkSabers1138 @ Jul 19 2006, 11:30 AM) [snapback]1283936[/snapback]</div>

I believe that a notch is there. It's how it got there is what baffles me. Your long red lines don't line up with the frag edges. If you worked them out a little bit better the lines would line up more. At least that's what I see. I could be wrong.
[/b]

The long lines are aligned with the groove edges, but separated from them to make it easier to see that they follow the edge of the cut correctly. All that does is enlarge the area the 'notch' could align with--but it's still in the wrong place.

As to how a notch got there, it's really not so mysterious. If it's a single notch it may be the result of a fall against a hard sharp edge. If you agree with Roman's theory then it's just that the circular cutters that were used to make the grooves DO cut up into the last ring on some real grenades. I just don't think the evidence points to that having happened on the prop grenade.

 

[Howard]

It's a ding.
And a little one at that.


Howard.

 

[franz bolo]

We know there is a notch on some real grenades which leads to the speculation that it's on the OWK one.

So on those grenades, is the notch consistantly the same all the way around the rim or do they vary in depth/length etc?

FB

 

[SithLord]

I'm happy to enlarge/digitally enhance any images of that area if it might help....I don't have the chronicles myself otherwise I'd try a scan....

It could be a discontinuity in the paint on that edge...a more oblique angle would be helpful...I'm not entirely convinced...

 

[Serafino]

FB: They can vary slightly but the pattern is repeated in pairs around the grenade on the ones I've seen.

SithLord: FWIW the general consensus is that the prop wasn't painted, although I personally think there is some evidence that it may have had paint on it at some point.

 

[moffeaton]

Who says the V2 isn't around any longer?
Mayyyybe it just doesn't travel to exhibits?
:love

 

[Romans Empire]

The reason I believe the upper section is notched is simply because we have two pictures where two notches can be seen. I’m not “reaching” here. They can be seen. So for me there’s no reason to assume the rest wouldn’t be there.

I understand we canÂ’t see the other notches where they should be, and my explanation is simple: The photos are not clear enough.

What we need to be THANKFUL for is that WE CAN see a couple notches. :eek

Below (left picture) we should be able to see two notches. However, the angle of the cut brings the “upper/right” notch in to the shadow that covers the entire top section of the saber. So unfortunately, because of simple lighting we can’t see the other. But again, if we can see one there's no reason to assume the other are not there..

And Howard, those are not at all “tiny” notches.

 

[Howard]

<div class='quotetop'>(Romans Empire @ Jul 19 2006, 09:27 PM) [snapback]1284021[/snapback]</div>

And Howard, those are not at all “tiny” notches.
[/b]

And Roman, I didn't say it was a 'notch.'

Jason - got any pics?

Howard.

 

[Serafino]

This picture:

is a smaller less clear version of the MECHANISMO VIEW (link), from which this is taken:

and the first pic I posted seems plenty clear to me.

 

[Romans Empire]

<div class='quotetop'>(Serafino @ Jul 19 2006, 10:02 PM) [snapback]1284087[/snapback]</div>

and the first pic I posted seems plenty clear to me.
[/b]

I'm sorry, Serafino. I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought the first picture was the one you were calling "a wash".

In either case, I agree to disagree, again.

 

[Ghost Host]

I'm leaning towards random, intermittant, partial-notches...

 

[Dagobah Don]

<div class='quotetop'>(Romans Empire @ Jul 19 2006, 08:27 PM) [snapback]1284021[/snapback]</div>

[/b]

I think these are two different grenades. The one on the left has a groove in the collar of the windvane piece that does not exist in the diassembled pic on the right.

Just a guess, but maybe the one with the visible notch was the Tunsia prop (it sure looks like a "dug" grenade to me), and the other is from the England shoot? 2 cents

 

[Serafino]

Avalon--FWIW I do see a probable groove in the vane sleeve in the LFL picture, it's just hard to read because the surfaces are catching light the same way, the resolution is bad, and so there are hardly any 'change of plane' cues. I am also inclined to say they were different. [Edited 6-13-08.]

Just to keep the other part in that LFL picture from returning like a Zombie from the dead, the pic is not so much a 'disassembled' pic as it is probably a 'part options' pic from before the saber parts were chosen and assembled, and the other part in it has nothing to do with the emitter, just for the record.

 

[MikeyX]

<div class='quotetop'>(moffeaton @ Jul 19 2006, 09:10 PM) [snapback]1284009[/snapback]</div>

Who says the V2 isn't around any longer?
Mayyyybe it just doesn't travel to exhibits?
:love
[/b]

I could be wrong, but from memory didn't someone who used to work for MR say that they had considered doing a V2, and it was present in the background of some of the shots that were taken of other props by ICONS during their research, but when they tried to look for it a couple of years ago they couldn't find it, and hence it was cancelled off MRs plan.

<div class='quotetop'>(Serafino @ Jul 20 2006, 06:24 AM) [snapback]1284290[/snapback]</div>

Avalon--lonepigeon had a good argument for the grenades being the same, although I can't recall it at the moment. But I do see a probable groove in the vane sleeve in the LFL picture, it's just hard to read because the surfaces are catching light the same way, the resolution is bad, and so there are hardly any 'change of plane' cues. I was inclined to say they were different too at one point, but I remember being persuaded by lonepigeon's argument now what was it...

Just to keep the other part in that LFL picture from returning like a Zombie from the dead, the pic is not so much a 'disassembled' pic as it is probably a 'part options' pic from before the saber parts were chosen and assembled, and the other part in it has nothing to do with the emitter, just for the record.
[/b]

I guess the evidence to them being the same grenade is critical - after all if they could be different grenades then everyone could be right and we could just be looking at two variants. (Although I might be missing something I'm fairly new - advance apologies for any newbie mistakes).

Can we find lonepigeons argument?

If they are proved to be the same grenade then we're back to discussing (not arguing ) quality of pics etc.,

 

[Serafino]

Hey Mikey,

The 1 or 2 grenade issue is an interesting one certainly, but I don’t think it would change this discussion much. Keep in mind that the ‘notch’ theory rests partly on the ‘Mechanismo’ view of the prop, and has been around since before the LFL photo was released.

Furthermore, if it were proved that there were two grenades, I would still say that 1 blob does not make a pattern of notches.

6-13-08--since lonepigeon is now convinced the grenade is a different one, the landscape has changed slightly.

 

[JunkSabers1138]

Are there TWO dents in the windvane :confused :eek ?.?. Judging by the two pics you posted, each showing a different view of the prop, I see a dent in the upper right area of the windvane in BOTH photos. Am I just seeing things or has anyone else seen this?

Here's what I'm talking about:

Transistor photo(left): Mechanismo photo(right):

 

[Serafino]

Lots of dents and marks on the windvane I think. I see 5 possibles in the 'transistor' view, with a major 'raw' area near the center. Poor thing is quite beat up.

Interestingly, I have never seen brass on a dug example that was that dark (although other members have claimed to have seen such things before), and I've never seen brass patina 'chip' off like that.

JunkSabers--I don't know if you've seen this pic yet, but it helps explain things.

 

[JunkSabers1138]

Thanks for the pic . So Alec had it on his belt in that scene after all. I didn't know that, can't see it on screen. How did they drop it anyway in that scene? Poor glue holding the handwheel to the booster, or was Obi supposed to wield it in a scene we've yet to see? They don't seem to give a crap about it judging by the pic .