New Doctor Who Series Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter silverskyes402
- Start date
JBReplicas
Master Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
yeah there is a popular rumour of at least one redesigned head
yeah there is a popular rumour of at least one redesigned head
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
so someone close to the doctor dies in the first two episodes, I think I know who might die, the Tardis, we all know it is going to explode, maybe that is what will die, after all the tardis is a living thing and it is the doctors oldest friend.
so someone close to the doctor dies in the first two episodes, I think I know who might die, the Tardis, we all know it is going to explode, maybe that is what will die, after all the tardis is a living thing and it is the doctors oldest friend.
JBReplicas
Master Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
um it exploded in last seasons finale
um it exploded in last seasons finale
Holluba
Active Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
I've only seen one image of the new Cybermen and it seems to be just the "C" that's been replaced on their chests (to concentric circles) so I'm guessing that they're supposed to be the Real World dudes and not the alternative reality versions. At least those BFO guns make a reappearance, they were pretty cool.
Holluba
I've only seen one image of the new Cybermen and it seems to be just the "C" that's been replaced on their chests (to concentric circles) so I'm guessing that they're supposed to be the Real World dudes and not the alternative reality versions. At least those BFO guns make a reappearance, they were pretty cool.
Holluba
TheDoctor
Sr Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
I doubt it. The Doctor, Amy, River, And Rory are all alive in later episodes. The TARDIS is around after the first couple episodes as well.
Remember Dalek Kahn saying "The Doctor's most faithful companion will die."
... and no one did?
I doubt it. The Doctor, Amy, River, And Rory are all alive in later episodes. The TARDIS is around after the first couple episodes as well.
Remember Dalek Kahn saying "The Doctor's most faithful companion will die."
... and no one did?
JBReplicas
Master Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
But those guns were carried by the preachers in the earlier Cyberman stories so they're not even 'cyber guns' I just wish the design team would dedicate a little more budget to the Cybermen, I mean they gave us the new Daleks, the whole thing about the Cybermen in the classic series was that nearly every time they reappeared they were different, can you guess I'm a fan :lol
But those guns were carried by the preachers in the earlier Cyberman stories so they're not even 'cyber guns' I just wish the design team would dedicate a little more budget to the Cybermen, I mean they gave us the new Daleks, the whole thing about the Cybermen in the classic series was that nearly every time they reappeared they were different, can you guess I'm a fan :lol
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
Oh ya, and they turned out great... :lol
Oh ya, and they turned out great... :lol
Calufrax
Well-Known Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
Going back to "Time of the Angels/Flesh and Stone" clearly the Bishop/commander of the soldiers didn't know who the 11th Doctor was.
Remember that River her introduced him to the Bishop who complained "Dr. Song, you promised me an army." "I promised you the equivalent of an army." meaning the Doctor. The Bishop never goes, "MY GOD THE GREATEST MAN WHO EVER LIVED!" or has any awe whatsoever at meeting him. The Doctor is apparently a completely unknown stranger to the Bishop.
Later he asks her "Do you trust this man?" Yet he does say to the Doctor on the subject of who she killed "You really don't want to know." which implies to me while it wasn't the 11th Doctor she kills, it still could be a future version, say the 12th or later Doctor. Still that doesn't seem likely.
So what if River 'kills' a clone of the 11th Doctor who then regenerates into a 12th Doctor who for some plot reason ultimately must die? Is River then convicted on a technicality of 'murder'?
Or does she kill for example some impersonator of the Doctor? Perhaps the Master figures in this someplace, mistaken for or played by Matt Smith who pulls another Saxon-like con? Or maybe John Simm will show up in a super-secret cameo having fooled people that he is the greatest man whoever lived?
Or perhaps the Time Lords all come back and Rassilon is finally killed off for being a total megalomaniac git that he was?
Whatever is going on there's just so many characters that could come squirting in out of the Doctor's past or the Whovian universe to be "The Greatest Man Whoever Lived", especially if said person was really a villain pulling the wool over humanity's eyes.
To me it seems like River's imprisonment is a fake-out, like whoever it is she kills isn't actually someone she actually kills, but rather takes the fall for to protect the Doctor or his companions. If Amy had to kill someone to protect the Doctor, or visa versa, I can see River taking the fall for it voluntarily.
Or perhaps the whole thing is one wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey mess where time gets re-written so by the time River becomes Professor Song, she had as far as the Universe was concerned never killed anyone. Perhaps most of the new series is a rewind at the end much like the Master's year-long reign of Earth undone in season 3?
I don't think River can be ultimately a bad person/murderer. Or die 'now' so that the 10th Doctor never met her at The Library. Nor are any of the cast going to really die and stay dead for any length of the season.
The more I think about it, the more I think this is Moffat's left hand misdirection distracting us while he's really keeping a lid on twists his right hand is writing. So to speak.
Going back to "Time of the Angels/Flesh and Stone" clearly the Bishop/commander of the soldiers didn't know who the 11th Doctor was.
Remember that River her introduced him to the Bishop who complained "Dr. Song, you promised me an army." "I promised you the equivalent of an army." meaning the Doctor. The Bishop never goes, "MY GOD THE GREATEST MAN WHO EVER LIVED!" or has any awe whatsoever at meeting him. The Doctor is apparently a completely unknown stranger to the Bishop.
Later he asks her "Do you trust this man?" Yet he does say to the Doctor on the subject of who she killed "You really don't want to know." which implies to me while it wasn't the 11th Doctor she kills, it still could be a future version, say the 12th or later Doctor. Still that doesn't seem likely.
So what if River 'kills' a clone of the 11th Doctor who then regenerates into a 12th Doctor who for some plot reason ultimately must die? Is River then convicted on a technicality of 'murder'?
Or does she kill for example some impersonator of the Doctor? Perhaps the Master figures in this someplace, mistaken for or played by Matt Smith who pulls another Saxon-like con? Or maybe John Simm will show up in a super-secret cameo having fooled people that he is the greatest man whoever lived?
Or perhaps the Time Lords all come back and Rassilon is finally killed off for being a total megalomaniac git that he was?
Whatever is going on there's just so many characters that could come squirting in out of the Doctor's past or the Whovian universe to be "The Greatest Man Whoever Lived", especially if said person was really a villain pulling the wool over humanity's eyes.
To me it seems like River's imprisonment is a fake-out, like whoever it is she kills isn't actually someone she actually kills, but rather takes the fall for to protect the Doctor or his companions. If Amy had to kill someone to protect the Doctor, or visa versa, I can see River taking the fall for it voluntarily.
Or perhaps the whole thing is one wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey mess where time gets re-written so by the time River becomes Professor Song, she had as far as the Universe was concerned never killed anyone. Perhaps most of the new series is a rewind at the end much like the Master's year-long reign of Earth undone in season 3?
I don't think River can be ultimately a bad person/murderer. Or die 'now' so that the 10th Doctor never met her at The Library. Nor are any of the cast going to really die and stay dead for any length of the season.
The more I think about it, the more I think this is Moffat's left hand misdirection distracting us while he's really keeping a lid on twists his right hand is writing. So to speak.
Holluba
Active Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
I like these guns that much that maybe this could be a project for my first build thread here at the RPF!
Holluba
That's very true about the BFO guns, but I seem to recall that there were a whole bunch of them in that Underhenge from the end of series 5, maybe the BBC design crew thought they were just too cool to waste and gave them to the Cybermen.
I like these guns that much that maybe this could be a project for my first build thread here at the RPF!
Holluba
JBReplicas
Master Member
MykiiAmore
Well-Known Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
Well, I now officially know what happens.
Apparently, like with a lot of series, people are selected as a panel to judge the episode so the shows producers can have an idea of the thoughts of viewers.
This season starter had this done and someone told me the episode layout etc.
AND I'm going to be a big meany and make you wait because I've read the synopsis of it
Well, I now officially know what happens.
Apparently, like with a lot of series, people are selected as a panel to judge the episode so the shows producers can have an idea of the thoughts of viewers.
This season starter had this done and someone told me the episode layout etc.
AND I'm going to be a big meany and make you wait because I've read the synopsis of it
TheDoctor
Sr Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
To be fair, MOST people don't know who The Doctor is, even when it's revealed that this man is "The Doctor". Her 'killing a great man' doesn't necessarily mean that everybody knows who this person is (or what they looked like, etc.). It's also possible he doesn't show any recognition because they needed to complete the mission (remember he even tells Song to not let him know who she really is).
Bing! If anything, she 'killed a great man' who she learned (from time traveling) will become a horrible man. Or something.
Bing again! I seriously doubt they're going to kill off anyone.
I think River is darker than any of The Doctor's other companions, even Jack.
After all, she killed the Dalek when it was begging for mercy. Also, the Dalek was terrified of her once he knew her name. She might not be 'evil', but she does seem pretty dark.
To be fair, MOST people don't know who The Doctor is, even when it's revealed that this man is "The Doctor". Her 'killing a great man' doesn't necessarily mean that everybody knows who this person is (or what they looked like, etc.). It's also possible he doesn't show any recognition because they needed to complete the mission (remember he even tells Song to not let him know who she really is).
Bing! If anything, she 'killed a great man' who she learned (from time traveling) will become a horrible man. Or something.
Bing again! I seriously doubt they're going to kill off anyone.
I think River is darker than any of The Doctor's other companions, even Jack.
After all, she killed the Dalek when it was begging for mercy. Also, the Dalek was terrified of her once he knew her name. She might not be 'evil', but she does seem pretty dark.
Calufrax
Well-Known Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
Sorry, that still doesn't make any sense. The Bishop knew who she killed very clearly, and he didn't know who the Doctor was. Now maybe he knows the Doctor under another name and River's known for killing "John Smith" but I think that would be a huge cheat. I don't think that's what Moffat's setting up.
The clue of "knowing who she really is" seems to be the cryptic key. It's the thing that make us think well, maybe she's Romana or someone he already knows with a new face/body. I think that's too simplistic as well. She's more likely to me perhaps a historical figure of the future he'd have a negative opinion of if he knew that she was that person. I think her "true" identity is probably something horrible, but ultimately she's blamed for something she didn't do, or had very good reason to do that no one would believe.
I kinda fancy the idea I've heard people put forward that she's Amy and Rory's child, even though part of me hates that idea. Part of me thinks that's too simple too, but I kinda fancy an idea I don't like being turned into an idea that could be made to make perfect sense. If River is trying to interfere with Amy and Rory getting killed because they traveled with the Doctor would go against the Doctor reluctantly not interfering with his own timeline, the Adric problem if you will. I never liked that because the 5th Doctor could have easily saved him moments before the doomed ship impacted the Earth essentially changing nothing about history.
Toss in the God-like power of time-travel and stories really, really get bendy and that's the appeal of Doctor Who. Not to mention a real headache!
That's somewhat the way I'm leaning. Imagine if she were thought to be a sort of John Wilkes Booth person who'd killed an Abraham Lincoln-like leader in the future. Some sort of character that died remembered as a great, near holy figure, but was about to become a Hitler like monster unless she stopped him and she couldn't prove it, but had to stop him. That's essentially Stephen King's "The Dead Zone" But add time travel. And possibly that she made a bad situation even worse because she did so.
And it puts the Doctor's doctrine of sort of non-interference in the quandary it's always been in. The Doctor could for example have spared the Earth WWII and neutralized or even killed Adolf Hitler before his rise to power. I thought Winston Churchill should have really hated the Doctor more for not helping Britain win the war. He could do any of number of things from preventing Hitler's parents from meeting to marooning a young Adolf on a desert island without killing him. Perhaps the Doctor even did so and someone more demonic came along, destroyed Earth and he had to undo it and Churchill somehow knew that or the Doctor explained it to him earlier is all I can think of.
It's the sort of conundrum the Doctor's enormous power as a time-traveler would torment his conscience with all the time. That made "Waters of Mars" so bitter.
Other things like the idea of a clone of the Doctor who becomes evil, maybe, but again that seems like a cheat. Or it could be a situation like when the 4th Doctor met Lela who's backwards humans worshiped the image of the Doctor who'd been there before, "The Evil One", so River tricks people into thinking she killed the Doctor and even takes the blame for a nonexistent crime, but that too feels like a cheat.
I wonder if it's her father she kills because she says her victim was the greatest man she ever knew. That for a lot of people might be dear old dad. What if her mom is dear old Mrs Lucy Saxon carted off to the 51st century and her daddy was the Master? That would be a the kind of a surprise I might expect, but again even that seems too predictable.
It's a terrific poser. I have a hunch though when he learns what her "crime" was, we'll find out that this was their bond, that he was just as guilty of her mistake, only he's been able to slip away in his TARDIS and escape where she was not.
I don't think she fears him finding out who she really was, but rather has at least at the point in her life we are seeing her feels horrible guilt. Obviously he must have forgiven her and loved her more to the end, that Picnic at Asgard thing points to this. Perhaps her "crime" exacted a terrible price from him. Even if you are forgiven, the guilt might not necessarily ever go away. The time travel angle is like retrospect; we ask how could people not see the terrible consequences, but things are always simpler in retrospect. It's go to be a problem time-travel can't solve because either because damned if you do, damned if you don't.
It's like the Hitler problem; say you prevent him, WWII, the horrific deaths of 6 million Jews murdered, plus the other millions killed never happen. In fact things turn out really, really nicer than anyone's wildest dreams. But oops, penicillin isn't developed as quickly as it would have been because of the war, science breakthroughs don't happen as quickly and something like staph, MRSA or bird-flu wipes out all humans in this alternate future. Cause and effect. The more you go back and try to tinker to fix the problems, the problems get worse and worse. It would be kinda like "Lathe of Heaven" in that respect.
Clearly stories we've seen so far are the only slice of the Doctor's life where he DIDN'T know 'who she was', but we haven't seen the moment she met him for the first time. It seems like he had all the advantage at that point knowing everything about her, and still loved her. "Don't you change one moment of those times, don't you dare!" she said as she was dying. She really didn't need to bother saying that really. Time travel has fated them together. The Doctor has always had the free will to undo it all, but clearly hasn't. Time can be rewritten, but clearly the Doctor never will with this story. Oh, but to TEMPT him to.
I don't think there's a thing dark about that. Listen, if I didn't know the Doctor or whoever the human one of those tin cans just shot dead in cold-blood, I'd probably so something a lot darker to it than make it beg for mercy. I find the nearest fire-axe and give it a reprogramming it wouldn't soon forget in robot afterlife.
Cap'n Jack or River aren't remotely dark compared to the compromises of the soul the Doctor has to deal with.
The Doctor himself has threatened to blow every last Dalek from the sky and we all cheered Eccleston when he delivered that line. Rose first and then later the Meta-Crisis Doctor actually did. Protecting your fellow man from a menace like Daleks or anything like that isn't too extreme. It's one of the themes we scare ourselves constantly with in sci-fi though and one of the reasons I'm not really keen on Daleks or Cybermen or even their lesser stand-ins like Judoon and Sontarans. They are kinda something one can rarely write a story that comes at it in anything other than a predictable angle. Rolling out one Nazi-like fascist enemy after another is not very imaginative.
At the same time, we'd be a lot better off as a species if we'd get it through our heads that making war on each other because we don't like the color of our skins, nationalities or beliefs in the wishes and wills of imaginary gods, we'd be a lot better off. The Doctor's condemnation of humans as stupid monkeys is as pointed as it is true. The Doctor's wrath and compassion are a delicate balancing act. A high-wire act really. That he failed in "Waters of Mars" was a great twist.
What I really liked was more actual time-travel stories last year and the promise of them this year that pose some implications and dire personal consequences of being a time-traveler in the first place rather than merely as a device to land some place & time for generic sci-fi stories.
Sorry, that still doesn't make any sense. The Bishop knew who she killed very clearly, and he didn't know who the Doctor was. Now maybe he knows the Doctor under another name and River's known for killing "John Smith" but I think that would be a huge cheat. I don't think that's what Moffat's setting up.
The clue of "knowing who she really is" seems to be the cryptic key. It's the thing that make us think well, maybe she's Romana or someone he already knows with a new face/body. I think that's too simplistic as well. She's more likely to me perhaps a historical figure of the future he'd have a negative opinion of if he knew that she was that person. I think her "true" identity is probably something horrible, but ultimately she's blamed for something she didn't do, or had very good reason to do that no one would believe.
I kinda fancy the idea I've heard people put forward that she's Amy and Rory's child, even though part of me hates that idea. Part of me thinks that's too simple too, but I kinda fancy an idea I don't like being turned into an idea that could be made to make perfect sense. If River is trying to interfere with Amy and Rory getting killed because they traveled with the Doctor would go against the Doctor reluctantly not interfering with his own timeline, the Adric problem if you will. I never liked that because the 5th Doctor could have easily saved him moments before the doomed ship impacted the Earth essentially changing nothing about history.
Toss in the God-like power of time-travel and stories really, really get bendy and that's the appeal of Doctor Who. Not to mention a real headache!
That's somewhat the way I'm leaning. Imagine if she were thought to be a sort of John Wilkes Booth person who'd killed an Abraham Lincoln-like leader in the future. Some sort of character that died remembered as a great, near holy figure, but was about to become a Hitler like monster unless she stopped him and she couldn't prove it, but had to stop him. That's essentially Stephen King's "The Dead Zone" But add time travel. And possibly that she made a bad situation even worse because she did so.
And it puts the Doctor's doctrine of sort of non-interference in the quandary it's always been in. The Doctor could for example have spared the Earth WWII and neutralized or even killed Adolf Hitler before his rise to power. I thought Winston Churchill should have really hated the Doctor more for not helping Britain win the war. He could do any of number of things from preventing Hitler's parents from meeting to marooning a young Adolf on a desert island without killing him. Perhaps the Doctor even did so and someone more demonic came along, destroyed Earth and he had to undo it and Churchill somehow knew that or the Doctor explained it to him earlier is all I can think of.
It's the sort of conundrum the Doctor's enormous power as a time-traveler would torment his conscience with all the time. That made "Waters of Mars" so bitter.
Other things like the idea of a clone of the Doctor who becomes evil, maybe, but again that seems like a cheat. Or it could be a situation like when the 4th Doctor met Lela who's backwards humans worshiped the image of the Doctor who'd been there before, "The Evil One", so River tricks people into thinking she killed the Doctor and even takes the blame for a nonexistent crime, but that too feels like a cheat.
I wonder if it's her father she kills because she says her victim was the greatest man she ever knew. That for a lot of people might be dear old dad. What if her mom is dear old Mrs Lucy Saxon carted off to the 51st century and her daddy was the Master? That would be a the kind of a surprise I might expect, but again even that seems too predictable.
It's a terrific poser. I have a hunch though when he learns what her "crime" was, we'll find out that this was their bond, that he was just as guilty of her mistake, only he's been able to slip away in his TARDIS and escape where she was not.
I don't think she fears him finding out who she really was, but rather has at least at the point in her life we are seeing her feels horrible guilt. Obviously he must have forgiven her and loved her more to the end, that Picnic at Asgard thing points to this. Perhaps her "crime" exacted a terrible price from him. Even if you are forgiven, the guilt might not necessarily ever go away. The time travel angle is like retrospect; we ask how could people not see the terrible consequences, but things are always simpler in retrospect. It's go to be a problem time-travel can't solve because either because damned if you do, damned if you don't.
It's like the Hitler problem; say you prevent him, WWII, the horrific deaths of 6 million Jews murdered, plus the other millions killed never happen. In fact things turn out really, really nicer than anyone's wildest dreams. But oops, penicillin isn't developed as quickly as it would have been because of the war, science breakthroughs don't happen as quickly and something like staph, MRSA or bird-flu wipes out all humans in this alternate future. Cause and effect. The more you go back and try to tinker to fix the problems, the problems get worse and worse. It would be kinda like "Lathe of Heaven" in that respect.
Clearly stories we've seen so far are the only slice of the Doctor's life where he DIDN'T know 'who she was', but we haven't seen the moment she met him for the first time. It seems like he had all the advantage at that point knowing everything about her, and still loved her. "Don't you change one moment of those times, don't you dare!" she said as she was dying. She really didn't need to bother saying that really. Time travel has fated them together. The Doctor has always had the free will to undo it all, but clearly hasn't. Time can be rewritten, but clearly the Doctor never will with this story. Oh, but to TEMPT him to.
I don't think there's a thing dark about that. Listen, if I didn't know the Doctor or whoever the human one of those tin cans just shot dead in cold-blood, I'd probably so something a lot darker to it than make it beg for mercy. I find the nearest fire-axe and give it a reprogramming it wouldn't soon forget in robot afterlife.
Cap'n Jack or River aren't remotely dark compared to the compromises of the soul the Doctor has to deal with.
The Doctor himself has threatened to blow every last Dalek from the sky and we all cheered Eccleston when he delivered that line. Rose first and then later the Meta-Crisis Doctor actually did. Protecting your fellow man from a menace like Daleks or anything like that isn't too extreme. It's one of the themes we scare ourselves constantly with in sci-fi though and one of the reasons I'm not really keen on Daleks or Cybermen or even their lesser stand-ins like Judoon and Sontarans. They are kinda something one can rarely write a story that comes at it in anything other than a predictable angle. Rolling out one Nazi-like fascist enemy after another is not very imaginative.
At the same time, we'd be a lot better off as a species if we'd get it through our heads that making war on each other because we don't like the color of our skins, nationalities or beliefs in the wishes and wills of imaginary gods, we'd be a lot better off. The Doctor's condemnation of humans as stupid monkeys is as pointed as it is true. The Doctor's wrath and compassion are a delicate balancing act. A high-wire act really. That he failed in "Waters of Mars" was a great twist.
What I really liked was more actual time-travel stories last year and the promise of them this year that pose some implications and dire personal consequences of being a time-traveler in the first place rather than merely as a device to land some place & time for generic sci-fi stories.
Larry Young
Master Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
http://www.therpf.com/f13/docteur-qui-106551/#post1532303
cross-post for whovians who may not check out the JY.
http://www.therpf.com/f13/docteur-qui-106551/#post1532303
cross-post for whovians who may not check out the JY.
TheDoctor
Sr Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
Indeed The Doctor is, by far, the darkest character, however there's a difference between River and other companions of The Doctor. Obviously other companions have killed (this was the point of Davros with the 'making people into weapons' speech), but clearly the Dalek was afraid of River (and wouldn't be afraid of Jack or Martha who are still basically soldiers). You pointed it out yourself when the Bishop said "what you are". Something happened beyond other companions - it seems like more than just a simple killing or assassination.
Again, like you said, it could be a mis-direction.
As far as The Doctor's non-interferance, you have to remember there are "fixed" things The Doctor can't change (that could mean a number of different things, everything from he literally can't change it, to what ever the event would still happen just with someone else).
Indeed The Doctor is, by far, the darkest character, however there's a difference between River and other companions of The Doctor. Obviously other companions have killed (this was the point of Davros with the 'making people into weapons' speech), but clearly the Dalek was afraid of River (and wouldn't be afraid of Jack or Martha who are still basically soldiers). You pointed it out yourself when the Bishop said "what you are". Something happened beyond other companions - it seems like more than just a simple killing or assassination.
Again, like you said, it could be a mis-direction.
As far as The Doctor's non-interferance, you have to remember there are "fixed" things The Doctor can't change (that could mean a number of different things, everything from he literally can't change it, to what ever the event would still happen just with someone else).
Calufrax
Well-Known Member
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
Weeelllll, yeah, but when a Dalek nearly did in the 10th Doctor Mickey the not-so idiot was johnny on the spot with his BFG. I think the River moment just looks more unique because she had the Dalek at the disadvantage of it's weakness. Remember Rose got pretty darn dark when she had the power of the heart of the TARDIS running thru her veins, lymph nodes, bile ducts, islets of Langerhans and just about every other fiber of her being.
I think that darkness is in all of us - human, Time Lord, small furry brown creatures from Alpha Centauri... (Oh I remember when small furry brown creatures from Alpha Centauri were REAL small furry brown creatures from Alpha Centauri!)
If you see a Dalek or anything shoot dead the person you like, love, grok, have sex with, etc, well that Darkness is gonna come boiling out.
I never really buy that. I think he's lying that some moments are "fixed". Lying to us or himself. Remember once he realized he wasn't just the lone survivor of the Time War - that he was the winner in "Waters of Mars" he kinda went NUTS. I'd say why that went wrong there was his pride, the way he scared the ever-lovin' bejezus out AdelaideBrooks. It should have worked. But he scared he to death and got all "I've sinned and fallen short of the Glory of Rassilon" weepy. And he seemed to forget he did save at least the others that would have perished he brought back.
He went and got all mystic believing that crazy woman on the bus prophecy crap like divine information. I mean really, what a parlor trick a little time-line sensitivity is! A real clairvoyant would have at least said something remotely useful like "leave the old man in the space-ship with the engine running so's he don't muck things up getting himself stuck in a radiation chamber." Heck advice like just "take the gun, leave the cannoli" - I mean "grandpa" would have done him better service. "He will knock four times" should have been met with "you know, that's really not helpful".
Rule of thumb: beware strangers bearing prophecy; they are just messing with your mojo.
It really does seem like he can really change anything he wants. It might be that he takes "fixed moments in time" as some sort of gospel Our Time Over-Lords were spouting and at that moment he was free of it. The 11th Doctor knows time can be rewritten, but he still hesitates, going all Hamlet on us like the 4th Doctor did - does he have the right to? YES, BLOW UP THE DAMNED DALEKS ALREADY! [sigh]
He's always been a Time Lord on a technicality really, because he rejected the glacial cool haughty loftiness of the actual Time Lords who took an imperial view of the Universe. They were sure they knew best. And clearly they didn't. Some Time Lords if they couldn't figure out the history lesson that Central Planning never works. I'm sure in the last days of the Time Lords there was a guy named Tuttle zip-lining all over Gallifrey.
For every Doctor, "Time Lord" is his bluff, because the term struck a certain fear in the baddies. He has the biology - probably the result of genetic tinkering rather than natural Gallifreyan biology. He has the experience, and somewhat or all the training to have been one of the Gallifreyan imperial crowd back on Gallifrey, but it's never been his shtick. He is the cosmic vagabond always. Nothing has ever suited him more than the Stetson he just acquired because wherever he goes he practices "cowboy diplomacy", borrowing from our green-blooded friend in that other franchise.
So no, I don't think anything's beyond him sticking his nose in and tinkering with. He's not all-knowing as he complained falling toward a cold star in his peculiar dream wondering "why does everyone expect me to know everything?" when he knows it's because he's a terrible show-off and well-known know-it-all. Can he really feel the turn of the Universe? Is he really the fire that burns at the heart of the sun, the on-coming storm? Yeah, if that scares the poo out of the bad guys, but I suspect that's over stating it a bit much even for 900+ guy.
Does the Universe have some sort of temporal tamper-proofing that prevents him from being a big butt-in-ski? I doubt it. I think it's a thing he says because of fear he might make something bad worse or to merely comfort in an almost religious way, like "if me the Big, Bad Time Lord fails, there's probably some god-like force that will save the day anyway". Yeah. Right Doctor. I'm starting to think on the planet Barcelona those dogs aren't nose-less either.
He let's stuff slip now and then. "I'm so old now, I used to have so much mercy" being indicative perhaps he doesn't believe that in powers greater than him or any of that nonsense deep down. It's why he can't stop. His Lonely God-complex is probably because he's only seen the pretenders so long (White and Black Guardians I'm looking at you!), seen so much suffering that he can't stop. Let them think he is the Lonely God, Oncoming Storm. Let 'em fight over who takes the first shot. One good bluff is usually better than a metric butt-load of war-heads. If he does stop, no one else can step in. One of those brilliant lines (and I don't credit Davies with very many) was the 10th Doctor railing at the Universe "I could do so much more! So much more!" It was like in that moment he thought he was dying for good this time and there was no one that would hear his appeal. At least as a Lonely God he actually takes an active interest in the Universe instead of being an absentee slumlord.
Of course that's just my long winded take.
But then part of what makes him such a good character is that he can be such an elastic character. He's been written for decades by committee, so much so that if you don't like him or what he's about or what he just did - wait. Our intrepid Time Lord will regenerate, fling himself on his horse and ride off madly in all directions at once. His critics are bound to like one of those directions sooner or later.
Weeelllll, yeah, but when a Dalek nearly did in the 10th Doctor Mickey the not-so idiot was johnny on the spot with his BFG. I think the River moment just looks more unique because she had the Dalek at the disadvantage of it's weakness. Remember Rose got pretty darn dark when she had the power of the heart of the TARDIS running thru her veins, lymph nodes, bile ducts, islets of Langerhans and just about every other fiber of her being.
I think that darkness is in all of us - human, Time Lord, small furry brown creatures from Alpha Centauri... (Oh I remember when small furry brown creatures from Alpha Centauri were REAL small furry brown creatures from Alpha Centauri!)
If you see a Dalek or anything shoot dead the person you like, love, grok, have sex with, etc, well that Darkness is gonna come boiling out.
I never really buy that. I think he's lying that some moments are "fixed". Lying to us or himself. Remember once he realized he wasn't just the lone survivor of the Time War - that he was the winner in "Waters of Mars" he kinda went NUTS. I'd say why that went wrong there was his pride, the way he scared the ever-lovin' bejezus out AdelaideBrooks. It should have worked. But he scared he to death and got all "I've sinned and fallen short of the Glory of Rassilon" weepy. And he seemed to forget he did save at least the others that would have perished he brought back.
He went and got all mystic believing that crazy woman on the bus prophecy crap like divine information. I mean really, what a parlor trick a little time-line sensitivity is! A real clairvoyant would have at least said something remotely useful like "leave the old man in the space-ship with the engine running so's he don't muck things up getting himself stuck in a radiation chamber." Heck advice like just "take the gun, leave the cannoli" - I mean "grandpa" would have done him better service. "He will knock four times" should have been met with "you know, that's really not helpful".
Rule of thumb: beware strangers bearing prophecy; they are just messing with your mojo.
It really does seem like he can really change anything he wants. It might be that he takes "fixed moments in time" as some sort of gospel Our Time Over-Lords were spouting and at that moment he was free of it. The 11th Doctor knows time can be rewritten, but he still hesitates, going all Hamlet on us like the 4th Doctor did - does he have the right to? YES, BLOW UP THE DAMNED DALEKS ALREADY! [sigh]
He's always been a Time Lord on a technicality really, because he rejected the glacial cool haughty loftiness of the actual Time Lords who took an imperial view of the Universe. They were sure they knew best. And clearly they didn't. Some Time Lords if they couldn't figure out the history lesson that Central Planning never works. I'm sure in the last days of the Time Lords there was a guy named Tuttle zip-lining all over Gallifrey.
For every Doctor, "Time Lord" is his bluff, because the term struck a certain fear in the baddies. He has the biology - probably the result of genetic tinkering rather than natural Gallifreyan biology. He has the experience, and somewhat or all the training to have been one of the Gallifreyan imperial crowd back on Gallifrey, but it's never been his shtick. He is the cosmic vagabond always. Nothing has ever suited him more than the Stetson he just acquired because wherever he goes he practices "cowboy diplomacy", borrowing from our green-blooded friend in that other franchise.
So no, I don't think anything's beyond him sticking his nose in and tinkering with. He's not all-knowing as he complained falling toward a cold star in his peculiar dream wondering "why does everyone expect me to know everything?" when he knows it's because he's a terrible show-off and well-known know-it-all. Can he really feel the turn of the Universe? Is he really the fire that burns at the heart of the sun, the on-coming storm? Yeah, if that scares the poo out of the bad guys, but I suspect that's over stating it a bit much even for 900+ guy.
Does the Universe have some sort of temporal tamper-proofing that prevents him from being a big butt-in-ski? I doubt it. I think it's a thing he says because of fear he might make something bad worse or to merely comfort in an almost religious way, like "if me the Big, Bad Time Lord fails, there's probably some god-like force that will save the day anyway". Yeah. Right Doctor. I'm starting to think on the planet Barcelona those dogs aren't nose-less either.
He let's stuff slip now and then. "I'm so old now, I used to have so much mercy" being indicative perhaps he doesn't believe that in powers greater than him or any of that nonsense deep down. It's why he can't stop. His Lonely God-complex is probably because he's only seen the pretenders so long (White and Black Guardians I'm looking at you!), seen so much suffering that he can't stop. Let them think he is the Lonely God, Oncoming Storm. Let 'em fight over who takes the first shot. One good bluff is usually better than a metric butt-load of war-heads. If he does stop, no one else can step in. One of those brilliant lines (and I don't credit Davies with very many) was the 10th Doctor railing at the Universe "I could do so much more! So much more!" It was like in that moment he thought he was dying for good this time and there was no one that would hear his appeal. At least as a Lonely God he actually takes an active interest in the Universe instead of being an absentee slumlord.
Of course that's just my long winded take.
But then part of what makes him such a good character is that he can be such an elastic character. He's been written for decades by committee, so much so that if you don't like him or what he's about or what he just did - wait. Our intrepid Time Lord will regenerate, fling himself on his horse and ride off madly in all directions at once. His critics are bound to like one of those directions sooner or later.
Re: Dr. Who New Season SPOILER
The season premiere did not disappoint! Man, that was good stuff.
We're back baby!
The season premiere did not disappoint! Man, that was good stuff.
That is definitely the same console room as from "The Lodger". River talking about the day when she'll meet the doc and he won't know who she is was brutal....and we've seen it.
We're back baby!
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