New Doctor Who Series Discussion *Spoilers*

[DuneMuadDib]

I know that Moffat has never been a fan of the regeneration limit. I remember reading an article where he was arguing about the validity of the Doctor's truthfulness, since it was the 3rd Doctor that said there were only 12 regenerations. Moffat's point was that the 3rd Doctor also stated that he was over 3,000 years old, so, why do we take one statement as complete truth & then treat the other as a throwaway line.

Curious to see this article. The problem with that argument is that official and non-official sources have treated the 12 regeneration limit as truth for 40ish years, whereas The Doctor's age fluctuated a bit before the relaunch, was lowered in the relaunch, and Moffat made up a "don't worry about it" explanation to cover RTD's inconsistency. Just because the Doctor lied about his age (or the writers screwed up) and Moffat's introduced this concept of the Doctor lying doesn't mean that the regeneration limit is a lie.

In my opinion, he's done 2 things already to completely negate the regeneration limit. He had the Doctor lie to the kid on the SJA & say that he had several hundred regenerations, & then he's taken GREAT steps to assure us that the one true fact of the show is that the Doctor lies, Thereby effectively saying that if the only thing we have to go on is the Doctor's word, then the stated fact can be thrown out the window with a simple line about how it was a lie.

RTD wrote that episode of SJA, so I don't know how much credit can be given to Moffat for that line as Moffat had nothing to do with the show. The only reason to to take the Doctor at his word is that Moffat's spent his tenure beating viewers over the head with "the Doctor lies." Too much of that and viewers won't trust the Doctor, and by extension those who write his words. I think making a lie of the regeneration limit, which to me is a significant part of the Time Lords and by extension the Doctor, is going too far. It's crossing the line for me at least, as is what The Sun is claiming John Hurt's role in the anniversary special.

On a less disappointed note, I'm thinking back to when River died in the library, and Ten said that there's only one time he could tell her his name. Most assumed that it was because they were married, but at the wedding he didn't actually tell her. The finale coming up will feature Trenzalore, where no living creature can lie or fail to answer and River's in the episode. I'm wondering if it's possible that Ten didn't mean them being married, but was referring to Trenzalore?

 

[TheDoctor]

I've seen the finale. His name is "Joe"*. :lol

Spoiler

Reference to The Doctor in the Voyager finale.

 

[AJK001]

From some of the posts I'm reading, it seems like some of you would rather the show end then come up with a way around the regeneration limit. Things change over the years, at the time they came up with the limit, no one could have forseen that the show was going to last 50 or more years and they would ever have to worry about getting to it. If they need to come up with a way around it or say he doesn't need to follow the limit, then so what.

 

[Coz]

The ep had a very '80s feel to it, to me.

Does Smiths' Doctor seem to be getting more Pertwee-ish to anyone else?

As for the regeneration dilemma, I'd lay odds on the Doctor inheriting the unused regenerations of the lost Time Lords - essentially making him immortal, barring accidents.

The Beeb shoulda got Wayne Pygram (the guy who played young Moff Tarkin in the prequels) to play Cushings' movie Doctor in the special - that'd really get the 'canon' fans frothing at the mouth!

 

[mlsmithjr]

I don't think the 12 regenerations idea was ever mentioned since the reboot, so I doubt they take it very seriously anyhow. It's just one of those previously-established facts that get in the way and they'll either ignore it and let fanboys dream up an explanation or have a throwaway line along the lines of "having unlimited regenerations now".
It ultimately doesn't matter. They aren't ending the show after Smith.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

For my money I want a slightly more creative way for them to work out how he'll regenerate the 13th time than just "The Doctor lies." That's a cop out. He got a few extra from River using her regeneration energy on him: that's good by me. Even saying that the twelve regens was a limit imposed by the Time Lord high council or whatever (given that they apparently could give the Master more after he'd used up all his allotted regens) and with them gone it no longer applies isn't as lazy. I want more thought put into it.

 

[cboath]

I'd like it if they explored it as the doctor thinking he's going to actually die and he's all prepared and what not and then instead of dying he regenerates and is stunned and sets off to figure out why. Make it the theme of the season or something.

I don't recall 12 regens being written in stone either. Seems to have been more casual as I recall. There was never anything stated as why it was a certain number or how it gets determined or extended or anything. It's kind of like a number of things in the series that have just been overlooked the whole time. The offer to the master of extra regens seemed fairly casual as well like it wasn't any big deal at all.

 

[Organic Mechanic]

I, for one, absolutely LOVED The Name of the Doctor!

The only *groan* moment was when I thought "Oh look, Clara is the most important person alive, how predictable." They quickly undid that though, and left us hanging with a worthy ending for an episode with such an awesome cold opening.

 

[Risu]

One thing I liked quite a bit is that they mentioned he will one day become the Valeyard. I'd love to see if they somehow incorporate that into the show in a year or two. It would be interesting if we had a series with an evil Doctor. Not sure if they could pull that off, though. Maybe Moffat will dump it on the next guy when he decides to move on.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

Well that was an interesting way to bring River in, rather liked that instead of making the order she and the Doctor meet even more confusing. It was nice to have a finale that wasn't just over the top escalation of how many armies the Doctor single-handedly defeats.

Still not exactly digging the secret regeneration that John Hurt apparently is. I suppose they can fudge it by saying that Eleven is the Eleventh Doctor even though he's the twelfth incarnation of that Time Lord as John Hurt wasn't "The Doctor." Still feels like they're needlessly making things wibbly wobbly. I'm assuming that John Hurt is the incarnation who ended the Time War then regenerated into Nine. If that's the way they're playing it hopefully they'll give some info on Eight's regeneration into Hurt and Hurt's into Nine.

 

[Risu]

With the way they executed that past Doctor montage, I could see them showing the 8-? regeneration the same way.

 

[phez]

Awesome episode!!!
I wonder if we are going to see a run with Hurt as the Doctor or back to Matt Smith in the fall.
I could see a short story arc at the start of next season about the end of the Time War (maybe Smith telling the story of the war to Clara).

I have to admit this is the most bummed I have been about having to wait to see what happens
in the series for a while. :lol

Well that was an interesting way to bring River in, rather liked that instead of making the order she and the Doctor meet even more confusing. It was nice to have a finale that wasn't just over the top escalation of how many armies the Doctor single-handedly defeats.

Agreed, I thought they were going to go ever the top for the 50th (they did sort of under do it a bit for the anniversary but I suppose they still have the fall :lol) but instead made a good solid episode.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

Okay, sort of a long shot I suppose, but what if John Hurt is the Valeyard? He'd technically be the Doctor, but obviously something the Doctor would want kept secret. The Valeyard's already crossed the Doctor's timeline when he encountered Six trying to steal his remaining regenerations (side note, that arc supports 12 regenerations being a cold, hard fact) so there's no problem with Eleven being aware of who he is.

 

[eclipse74569]

Loved the Episode....severely mind****ed right now!


Although I'm not really sure how I feel about John Hurt, I cannot wait till November 23rd!

 

[firesprite]

This was the best episode of the season. It's the first time I've actually FELT anything for the Doctor or Clara. Personally, I think that the season should have OPENED with this, not closed with it. This whole season, to me, has seemed like a major missed opportunity.

Spoiler

I cried when the time came for the Doctor and River to say goodbye. I loved River and was sorry to see her go, but happy to see that she got a last sweet moment with her Doctor before she went.

 

[eclipse74569]

I agree! That moment was both funny and bittersweet at the same time.

 

[Deric]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Em8lmmTNkA&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Can't wait until November now such a long wait. I really hope they fixed Davids hair. He looks so weird like this

 

[Nwerke]

OMG, Neil Gaiman killed the Cybermen!

That was truly the most embarrassing, over-acted, cheesy, infantile episode since the series re-booted.

It's like the late eighties all over again :sick

Glad it's not just me.

Better than "Crimson Horror" with the big bad being sidelined when she broke her hip.

I'm with Birdie on this one, but CH was also severely lazily written and over-acted.

Looks like I wasn't the only one relieved this didn't turn into a kiddie romp. Then again, it's Gaiman so I should have known.

Uh...it didn't?

 

[TheNickFox]

Absolutely LOVED this episode. To me, this was the greatest episode since Smith took over, and what a great intro/cliffhanger for the 50th. I really can't wait.

Now for some thoughts:

-With the introduction of Clara and the Doctor in the Doctor's time stream, they've introduced a way to bring back the 10th Doctor, without making him the metacrisis Doctor. Perhaps the "N-th Doctor" (John Hurt) will use some gambit to hop out of the time stream during the 10th Doctor's time, and Clara and the Doctor follow him out.

-My current thought of how the N-th Doctor was formed was that the 8th Doctor purposely regengerated in order to use the regeneration to seal the Time War in a time lock...because that energy was used ***Insert wibbly wobbly stuff*** there was one regeneration that was created and trapped inside of the Time War and one outside.

-The 9th and especially 10th talked about how much hate he felt during the Time War...perhaps the N-th Doctor is where the Doctor stored that hate because he chose not to be that person anymore, afraid of what he would become.

-Or perhaps, the Doctor forceful created a metacrisis Doctor during the Time War, with TImelord DNA instead of human in order to be a weapon to help win, and he was locked inside when the Doctor. This could be the N-th Doctor.

-"What I did, I did without choice...in the name of peace and sanity" Sounds an awful lot like ending the Time War.

I'm going to need to watch this episode a few dozen more times just for all the great shots of the previous regenerations.

-Nick

 

[phez]

Soooooooo

Was this the event that the Silence were trying to prevent??????
What they need to do is get Russell T Davies to write some Torchwood style dark stories about the unleashing of the evil war time Doctor. It would be great to get a few episodes with some tragic endings.