James Cameron - Hypocrite

Those could have been American jobs.

Those could never be American jobs, unless we suffered such a cataclysmic economic downturn as to make the average American factory worker's wage on par with that of a Chinese factory worker.

American solar panels cost more for a reason.

The other factor that goes into where panels are produced is where silicon can be mined. The main location of most mines: China. It's more cost effective to have your plants and factories near the source.

If you want solar to be widespread, you'd be in favor of China and India being the main manufacturers. With the cost savings, it allows the panels to be more affordable to more people.

Also, can we all just admit that it is hypocritical for him to have a very high consumption/high waste life yet preaches the reverse to everyone else? Especially when the low waste life is actually a more expensive one in the short term, something that would make it easier for him to do before the average consumer or soccer mom.

I don't care that he has spread a good message to people who are implementing, HE HIMSELF is not implementing it, when he has the means to do it. That is hypocrisy. A murderer can cause a net good by telling people not to kill but it doesn't mean he's not a hypocrite for murdering people.

-Nick
 
Those could never be American jobs, unless we suffered such a cataclysmic economic downturn as to make the average American factory worker's wage on par with that of a Chinese factory worker.

American solar panels cost more for a reason.

The other factor that goes into where panels are produced is where silicon can be mined. The main location of most mines: China. It's more cost effective to have your plants and factories near the source.

If you want solar to be widespread, you'd be in favor of China and India being the main manufacturers. With the cost savings, it allows the panels to be more affordable to more people.

Also, can we all just admit that it is hypocritical for him to have a very high consumption/high waste life yet preaches the reverse to everyone else? Especially when the low waste life is actually a more expensive one in the short term, something that would make it easier for him to do before the average consumer or soccer mom.

I don't care that he has spread a good message to people who are implementing, HE HIMSELF is not implementing it, when he has the means to do it. That is hypocrisy. A murderer can cause a net good by telling people not to kill but it doesn't mean he's not a hypocrite for murdering people.

-Nick

As I understand it, the silicon used in solar cells is often synthetically grown. Regardless, the global nature of supply chains is such that there is no reason why there could not have been a bigger solar industry in the US. But concentrating on solar panels is missing the forest for the trees. The larger picture is that there's a "green economy" to be built. The longer the US waits to jump in, the smaller share we have.

As far as Cameron, how is it exactly that you know all the details of his "high consumption" lifestyle? That's a pretty big judgment to cast on someone.
 
As far as Cameron, how is it exactly that you know all the details of his "high consumption" lifestyle? That's a pretty big judgment to cast on someone.

By the very nature of the number of vehicles and houses he owns and maintains as well as the amount he travels. Simple math says that he consumes vastly more resources than the average person.

And since when is consumption a judgement? I'm all for greenifying things, but to think I'm judging someone for consuming more resources than another is silly. I have no problem with people on either side of the spectrum, but if you believe in something, you had better be willing to back it up with your own actions. No judgement, just asking for consistency.

And to prove that money does not necessarily lead to a lifestyle like that, just look at Warren Buffet, living one of the most low-key, normal existences possible, when, based on his bankroll, he could take a hoverboard to work every day, burn it, pay a team of designers to invent a jet pack for him to fly home in, then punch them all in the groin before donning baby seal slippers and walking home...if he really wanted to.

As for the green economy, Americans are fitting in where they always do: on the more highly skilled side. We are the people that get calls to design and outfit large solar arrays in other countries (I have a enough friends in the design and installation side of the business that I can attest to the number of calls they get from outside the US). Manufacture will always go to the lowest bidder, especially when there is already a premium on the price of green goods. So it's not that we're missing our chance to be a part of a green economy, just missing sight of our proper place if we believe our place is on the manufacturing side of things.

-Nick
 
By the very nature of the number of vehicles and houses he owns and maintains as well as the amount he travels. Simple math says that he consumes vastly more resources than the average person.

And since when is consumption a judgement? I'm all for greenifying things, but to think I'm judging someone for consuming more resources than another is silly. I have no problem with people on either side of the spectrum, but if you believe in something, you had better be willing to back it up with your own actions. No judgement, just asking for consistency.

And to prove that money does not necessarily lead to a lifestyle like that, just look at Warren Buffet, living one of the most low-key, normal existences possible, when, based on his bankroll, he could take a hoverboard to work every day, burn it, pay a team of designers to invent a jet pack for him to fly home in, then punch them all in the groin before donning baby seal slippers and walking home...if he really wanted to.

As for the green economy, Americans are fitting in where they always do: on the more highly skilled side. We are the people that get calls to design and outfit large solar arrays in other countries (I have a enough friends in the design and installation side of the business that I can attest to the number of calls they get from outside the US). Manufacture will always go to the lowest bidder, especially when there is already a premium on the price of green goods. So it's not that we're missing our chance to be a part of a green economy, just missing sight of our proper place if we believe our place is on the manufacturing side of things.

-Nick

The point regarding Cameron is this, simply saying that he has a lot of stuff isn't a cogent argument. As I said above: Nobody's saying that we can simply stop using gasoline or petroleum products today. But what people are saying is that if everyone took steps to reduce their usage of such things through the available alternatives, it would be a positive step.

If, relative to his own usage, Cameron has "lightened his footprint," while he has a bigger footprint than you or I, that alone does not make him a hypocrite. Do you know for sure that he hasn't reduced his energy usage? Do you know for sure that he doesn't now drive a more fuel efficient car?

If he switched from a hummer (arbitrary examples here, I have no idea if he owns a hummer or not) to say a Lexus, he's reducing his carbon footprint. Maybe he sets his thermostat at 72 now instead of 68. Maybe he has switched all his incandescent bulbs to CFLS. Do you know that he hasn't?

He and Al Gore fly. Yeah, and? Nobody is suggesting that nobody should be able to fly, least of all Al Gore and James Cameron. What they (not necessarily them personally, but the larger "green movement in general) are saying is that we should look into alternative forms of jet fuel (ala Richard Branson).

Or, to ask the inverse of this question, at what point, in the collective judgment of the posters here (for example) does Cameron NOT become a hypocrite? What sacrifices does he have to make in order to not be labeled a hypocrite? If this answer cannot be defined by those calling him a hypocrite, I question the logic of calling him a hypocrite in the first place.

Again, I think a lot of this criticism is based on a straw man fallacy that we are all somehow being commanded to live some spartan existence. That's not the message. It's more like "if we all take little steps, those small steps add up."

As far as the green economy, I would actually say we agree more than we disagree. The point of mentioning solar panels was just an example. As I said above, the larger point is that we WILL miss out on potential economic opportunities if we just sit on our hands. That is regardless of one's belief or non belief in climate change, because the market for "green" stuff doesn't simply disappear if a section of the American population doesn't want to buy it. As China's economy overtakes ours, the demands of the American consumer will have less precedence in the global economy anyways.
 
Every time I hear or read the term "carbon footprint," I begin to get a headache because of it's stupid name. Said it before and I'll say it again; these people are either crooks, like Gore, or completly insane and lack compintence.

Did every already forget about the many leaked documents clearly showing faked and fudged expiremental results listed as scientific "data" backing "global warming"?

People need to get a life and jump off this scam band wagon.
 
Every time I hear or read the term "carbon footprint," I begin to get a headache because of it's stupid name. Said it before and I'll say it again; these people are either crooks, like Gore, or completly insane and lack compintence.

Did every already forget about the many leaked documents clearly showing faked and fudged expiremental results listed as scientific "data" backing "global warming"?

People need to get a life and jump off this scam band wagon.

Not that I usually point out spelling errors, but there is a certain amount of irony if you're speaking to the "compintence" of others. My friend, I believe you mean "competence."

“Climategate” | FactCheck.org

Don't portray the "climate gate" emails as something that they are not. They simply do not cast dispersion on the entirety of scientific evidence behind climate change. There was nothing "faked" revealed by said emails. That's simply a factually incorrect characterization of the incident.
 
Not that I usually point out spelling errors, but there is a certain amount of irony if you're speaking to the "compintence" of others. My friend, I believe you mean "competence."

“Climategate” | FactCheck.org

Don't portray the "climate gate" emails as something that they are not. They simply do not cast dispersion on the entirety of scientific evidence behind climate change. There was nothing "faked" revealed by said emails. That's simply a factually incorrect characterization of the incident.

Oh no I spelled competence wrong, let's go out back and shoot me!

Here's a good link for it: Climategate—analysis by John P. Costella, Ph.D.
breaks down the emails in chronological order. Say what you will, just don't be so butt hurt about your Gore man and his posse being dirty crooks
 
Cameron's been living without my cash for a very long time lol. i haven't bought one of his movies since Terminator 2.
 
I don't think there can be any doubt that the climate is changing. That's what the climate does. But to suggest that the resultant change is due to people is what I find ridiculous. It's part of a natural change. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be such a thing as Cleveland as there would still be glaciers covering it. On second thought, maybe that would be a good thing. To think that man is responsible for this change is silly, and to think that you can stop the change by not driving as much is just as silly...
 
Not that I usually point out spelling errors, but there is a certain amount of irony if you're speaking to the "compintence" of others. My friend, I believe you mean "competence."

“Climategate” | FactCheck.org

Don't portray the "climate gate" emails as something that they are not. They simply do not cast dispersion on the entirety of scientific evidence behind climate change. There was nothing "faked" revealed by said emails. That's simply a factually incorrect characterization of the incident.

As long as we're pointing out spelling errors as rebuttals for arguments, it's not 'dispersion'. I believe the term you're looking for is "cast aspersions".

Just sayin'.
 
I don't think there can be any doubt that the climate is changing. That's what the climate does. But to suggest that the resultant change is due to people is what I find ridiculous. It's part of a natural change. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be such a thing as Cleveland as there would still be glaciers covering it. On second thought, maybe that would be a good thing. To think that man is responsible for this change is silly, and to think that you can stop the change by not driving as much is just as silly...

Man being responsible is silly? Uh oh. Better let the guys in the left column in on what you know. The guys in the right column apparently agree with you. Check it out:

Wonk Room » The ‘Climate Change Debate’ Is Science Versus Snake Oil
 
This kind of comment misses the point. What's the available alternative to jet fuel? None.

What's the available alternative to gasoline? Hybrids (although their carbon footprint isn't necessarily lower counting production, they use less gas), electric, ethanol, biodiesel, etc. Granted, the infrastructure isn't all there, and the market is still heavily in favor of gasoline, the alternatives DO exist, and as technology advances, more alternatives will become available (other biofuels made from algae, hemp, etc).

This kind of criticism is really a straw man fallacy. Nobody's saying that we can simply stop using gasoline or petroleum products today. But what people are saying is that if everyone took steps to reduce their usage of such things through the available alternatives, it would be a positive step.

:lol carbon footprint :lol
 
This debate is filled with plenty of correlations, but very little proof of causation on either side.

At the very least, the correct 20th century data (The graphs that show the 30's as the hottest decade) shows that human action and our "carbon footprint" seems to have little effect on the temperature.

Is there a slight correlation between the two? Yes. Is it enough to say one causes the other or vice versa? No.

Vostock ice cores when corrected (Instead of the raw data that didn't take isotopes into account) shows that CO2 levels rise, on average, 500 years AFTER temperatures start trending upwards.

Is that enough to say that CO2 emissions DON'T cause global warming? Nope.

And can we stop pretending like CO2 is the worst gas ever. Even in terms of greenhouse gases, it pales in comparison to regular water vapor in terms of severity of impact.

Does that mean we should stop developing hydrogen cars since water vapor is the byproduct? Of course not.

Sunspots seem to trend very similarly to temperature here on Earth (Fewer sunspots equal higher temps) Is that the end of the argument? It wouldn't be science if it was.

Should we all live greener, more sustainable lives? Ideally, I think yes. I think it's a great idea to live lives that leave a smaller impact, even if the impact we have is negligible. But should we be MADE to live greener lives, should the government be able to tax us for a correlationary relationship between our actions and natural phenomena? Never!

Should James Cameron go back to making movies about killer robots from the future and forget he ever heard the term 3D? You bet your sweet bippy!

-Nick

PS: That has always been one of my favorite Carlin bits, JoMamma_Smurf. Thanks for posting it.
 
Oh no I spelled competence wrong, let's go out back and shoot me!

Here's a good link for it: Climategate—analysis by John P. Costella, Ph.D.
breaks down the emails in chronological order. Say what you will, just don't be so butt hurt about your Gore man and his posse being dirty crooks

My Gore man? What's that even supposed to mean?

The bottom line is that the emails simply do not refute the entirety of scientific evidence behind climate change. That's just a simple fact. We're talking about ONE institution among HUNDREDS, and THOUSANDS of individual scientists here.

As long as we're pointing out spelling errors as rebuttals for arguments, it's not 'dispersion'. I believe the term you're looking for is "cast aspersions".

Just sayin'.

Dispersion is not a typo. It's a word. A form of "disperse." Aspersion would also work in this context, but "dispersion" is not incorrect. Pointing it out was not meant as a rebuttal. But that's neither here nor there.

The factchek.org article deals with the "climategate emails."

Penn State did an investigation into Mr. Mann and concluded there was no research misconduct (pdf link).

The Independent panel established to look into the emails also concluded (pdf link):
We saw no evidence of any deliberate scientific malpractice in any of the work of the Climatic Research Unit and had it been there we believe that it is likely that we would have detected it. Rather we found a small group of dedicated if slightly disorganised researchers who were ill-prepared for being the focus of public attention. As with many small research groups their internal procedures were rather informal.

Another separate British panel concluded:
A British panel on Wednesday exonerated the scientists caught up in the controversy known as Climategate of charges that they had manipulated their research to support preconceived ideas about global warming.

But the panel also rebuked the scientists for several aspects of their behavior, especially their reluctance to release computer files supporting their scientific work. And it declared that a chart they produced in 1999 about past climate was “misleading.”



The new report is the last in a series of investigations of leading British and American climate researchers, prompted by the release of a cache of e-mail messages that cast doubt on their conduct and raised fresh public controversy over the science of global warming.



All five investigations have come down largely on the side of the climate researchers, rejecting a number of criticisms raised by global-warming skeptics. Still, mainstream climate science has not emerged from the turmoil unscathed.
(bold mine)

Look, it's really fine with me if you don't want to believe in climate change. I would suggest to you that you actually make an effort to read the literature that's out there instead of relying on sensationalized media reports, but people have lives, I get it. However, to simply pick up on the hype out there from various media outlets or internet forums and run with it is intellectually dishonest. Even if you reject all of the investigations above which found little to no evidence of wrong doing, and subsequently you tossed out every bit of research from East Anglia, the entire body of knowledge behind climate change simply does not become invalid.

To bring this back to the original topic, again, I ask: at what point, in the collective judgment of the posters here (for example) does Cameron NOT become a hypocrite? What sacrifices does he have to make in order to not be labeled a hypocrite? If this answer cannot be defined by those calling him a hypocrite, I question the logic of calling him a hypocrite in the first place.
 
I love Carlin. I really do. I'm a huge fan of his comedy. But he's a nihilist. His point is that nothing we do is gonna destroy/save the world. Because the eco-system will eventually self correct and over time the planet will be fine. It's the PEOPLE living on earth that will be f@#ked. So you can post that all you want. But it's not nonsense. People can make changes and those changes can impact the PEOPLE living on the planet.
 
Dispersion is not a typo. It's a word. A form of "disperse." Aspersion would also work in this context, but "dispersion" is not incorrect. Pointing it out was not meant as a rebuttal. But that's neither here nor there.


Which definition are you using? Because really, it doesn't make any sense to me in that context. I'm sorry, I really don't mean to be a pill about this, but I'm curious.

From www.merriam-webster.com
Definition of DISPERSION

1
capitalized : diaspora 1a

2
: the act or process of dispersing : the state of being dispersed

3
: the scattering of the values of a frequency distribution from an average

4
: the separation of light into colors by refraction or diffraction with formation of a spectrum; also : the separation of radiation into components in accordance with some varying characteristic (as energy)

5
a : a dispersed substance b : a system consisting of a dispersed substance and the medium in which it is dispersed : colloid 2b
 
Which definition are you using? Because really, it doesn't make any sense to me in that context. I'm sorry, I really don't mean to be a pill about this, but I'm curious.

From www.merriam-webster.com
Definition of DISPERSION

1
capitalized : diaspora 1a

2
: the act or process of dispersing : the state of being dispersed

3
: the scattering of the values of a frequency distribution from an average

4
: the separation of light into colors by refraction or diffraction with formation of a spectrum; also : the separation of radiation into components in accordance with some varying characteristic (as energy)

5
a : a dispersed substance b : a system consisting of a dispersed substance and the medium in which it is dispersed : colloid 2b

edit: you know what, I really don't care that much about this, it's a distraction from my main points.
 
People can make changes and those changes can impact the PEOPLE living on the planet.

Like when people tell other people they have to live greener lives with no regard for what such a drastic change would have on the economy we have or how many jobs would be lost as a result?

The whole "people affect people" thing swings both ways.

-Nick
 
Dispersion is not a typo. It's a word. A form of "disperse." Aspersion would also work in this context, but "dispersion" is not incorrect. Pointing it out was not meant as a rebuttal. But that's neither here nor there.

The factchek.org article deals with the "climategate emails."

Penn State did an investigation into Mr. Mann and concluded there was no research misconduct (pdf link).

The Independent panel established to look into the emails also concluded (pdf link):


Another separate British panel concluded:

(bold mine)

Look, it's really fine with me if you don't want to believe in climate change. I would suggest to you that you actually make an effort to read the literature that's out there instead of relying on sensationalized media reports, but people have lives, I get it. However, to simply pick up on the hype out there from various media outlets or internet forums and run with it is intellectually dishonest. Even if you reject all of the investigations above which found little to no evidence of wrong doing, and subsequently you tossed out every bit of research from East Anglia, the entire body of knowledge behind climate change simply does not become invalid.

To bring this back to the original topic, again, I ask: at what point, in the collective judgment of the posters here (for example) does Cameron NOT become a hypocrite? What sacrifices does he have to make in order to not be labeled a hypocrite? If this answer cannot be defined by those calling him a hypocrite, I question the logic of calling him a hypocrite in the first place.

Oh I believe in climate change/warming/cooling, only NATURAL effects that have been going on for thousands of years. It's been proven to be a scam, simple as that. When you have one man selling "carbon offsets" to ignorant people while preaching the end of the world if we don't stop everything (while he continues to fly around in jets and the like) Not to mention he OWNS the company scamming people. Sorry, but Gore is the poster child for the whole global warming/climate change BS. See below article. Don't like fox news? Okay! Theres another one below that.





Regarding Penn State's "Investigation" http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/02/05/penn-state-probe-michael-mann-total-whitewash/

"It was set up to be a total whitewash and the panel made no effort to investigate," Milloy said. "They didn't even interview the recipients of the e-mails. It is ridiculous."

He charges that the panel did little more than look at the e-mails Mann sent and that, despite claims that "hundreds of hours" of time had been put into the investigation, only two people were actually interviewed. "None of them had any direct knowledge of the e-mails," he said.

"The only interviews cited in the report other than Mann's are with Jerry North and Donald Kennedy," he said. "Both are Mann's supporters and none have anything to do with the charges. Kennedy was the editor of Science magazine, and North helped Mann defend the 'hockey stick' graph. Yet Phil Jones, who got the e-mails, wasn't contacted."

Steve McIntyre of the Web site Climate Audit also charged that the panel looked at papers that were already publicly available. "They did not examine any of Mann's correspondence that was not already in the public record," he said. In effect, he argued, the panel didn't use any of its investigatory powers to plumb deeper.

Pennsylvania's Commonwealth Foundation, a conservative research and educational institute, proposed that the state legislature conduct an independent investigation of the charges and Mann's research.

A spokesman for the foundation said it was a "conflict of interest" for Penn State to investigate itself. Republican State Rep. RoseMarie Swanger also called for a separate investigation to be conducted by the state.


‘Climategate’ professor Michael Mann protected ‘to maximum extent’ by Penn State policy | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

Michael Mann created the now-famous “hockey stick” graph, which Al Gore cited in “An Inconvenient Truth,” his Oscar-winning Powerpoint presentation. Mann also received email from Phil Jones, director of the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit, in which Jones appeared to suggest he had used a “trick” to “hide the decline” in global average temperatures. Another Jones note asks Mann to delete emails that were the target of a Freedom Of Information Act request.

It’s in the context of one of the biggest stories of the decade — a scandal that called into question the credibility of an entire scientific discipline — that Penn State launched its initial 60-day inquiry.

Ordinarily, the probe panel would include the dean of the College of Earth and Mineral Sciences. However, Dean William Easterling recused himself because he was one of the lead authors of the report from the United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Easterling and co-authors shared the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize with Al Gore



Read more: ‘Climategate’ professor Michael Mann protected ‘to maximum extent’ by Penn State policy | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment


The way it seems, is that Penn State didn't want to tarnish their name. No surprise.

On East Anglia's report on itself that you posted:

Parliament misled over Climategate report, says MP | Watts Up With That?

Not only did Russell fail to deal with the issues of malpractice raised in the emails, Stringer told us, but he confirmed the feeling that MPs had been misled by the University of East Anglia when conducting their own inquiry. Parliament only had time for a brief examination of the CRU files before the election, but made recommendations. This is a serious charge.

After the Select Committee heard oral evidence on March 1, MPs believed that Anglia had entrusted an examination of the science to a separate inquiry. Vice Chancellor of the University of East Anglia Edward Acton had told the committee that “I am hoping, later this week, to announce the chair of a panel to reassess the science and make sure there is nothing wrong.”[Hansard - Q129]] [1]

Ron Oxburgh’s inquiry eventually produced a short report clearing the participants. He did not reassess the science, and now says it was never in his remit. “The science was not the subject of our study,” he confirmed [2] in an email to Steve McIntyre of Climate Audit.

Earlier this week the former chair of the Science and Technology Committee, Phil Willis, now Lord Willis, said MPs had been amazed at the “sleight of hand”.

“Oxburgh didn’t go as far as I expected. The Oxburgh Report looks much more like a whitewash,” Graham Stringer told us.

Stringer says Anglia appointee Muir Russell (a civil servant and former Vice Chancellor of Glasgow University), failed in three significant areas.

“Why did they delete emails? The key question was what reason they had for doing this, but this was never addressed; not getting to the central motivation was a major failing both of our report and Muir Russell.”

Graham Stringer

Stringer also says that it was unacceptable for Russell (who is not a scientist) to conclude that CRU’s work was reproducible, when the data needed was not available. He goes further:

“The fact that you can make up your own experiments and get similar results doesn’t mean that you’re doing what’s scientifically expected of you. You need to follow the same methodology of the process.”

“I was surprised at Phil Jones’ answers to the questions I asked him [in Parliament]. The work was never replicable,” says Stringer.

In 2004 Jones had declined to give out data that would have permitted independent scrutiny of their work, explaining that “We have 25 or so years invested in the work. Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it.”

Can keep going if you want.
 
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