Interesting article on new xbox

Let's add this, too. With MS's new system you cannot loan a game to a friend, you cannot try a game out before you buy. This will potentially hurt or kill off GameFly, Redbox and other game rental services.

Also, if you have multiple accounts (and while that seems crazy to me, folks do this) - you will have to pay full MSRP to play that game on your other account(s).
 
Actually, I don't think that last one's true. They've mentioned that multiple accounts in a single household will only need one license per game. If there are multiple Xboxes in the house, though.. that might be another story.
 
Actually, I don't think that last one's true. They've mentioned that multiple accounts in a single household will only need one license per game. If there are multiple Xboxes in the house, though.. that might be another story.
Yup, you appear to be correct... although, I'm still not sure how to read this article.

Microsoft Details Used Game Fees, Installation Requirements - IGN

"Families using the same home console can use parental controls to allow multiple accounts to access the same game. The MSRP 'fees' will apply if you take a game to another console."

What isn't clear is if you have multiple "adult" accounts... it seems like you can use the game.
 
Fact:

Used games as a concept will die in the next 10 years.


Get used to this idea now, because as long as streaming services and broadband connections continue to spread and increase in speeds, there is zero incentive for content producers to give you a physical copy which you can then give to someone else. Hell, if it were possible, they wouldn't even let you store the game on your hard drive and you'd have to stream it live EVERY time. That's infeasible at the moment, but trust me, they'll move towards that as soon as it's possible, too.

You buy a license to play the game. You don't own it. You own the disc, not the game on it. Why would a publisher want to continue providing you with discs -- which it costs the publisher money to produce, and which let YOU then give the disc to someone else -- when they can charge EVERYONE to use the game?

Complain all you like, but this is the direction all published media is headed. Eventually, assuming it's technologically possible, EVERYTHING will be live-streamed. NOTHING will reside on any device that plays the live-streamed content.

Red an article on that very thing. There is a company (nvidia i think) making a machine that can simultaneously render 50-100 screens at 60fps, 1920x1080 and stream just the image to a networked machine for realtime play. Problem now is machine isn't feasible for companies price wise and they have a limit of players being under 100.

I think the day is closer than 10 years.

It'll also be the end of piracy. Can't bootleg a game/app/whatever if you never have access to the software.
 
since I'm in the group that thinks that developers especially are being completely shafted by the way today's used game market works, and I try to buy all my games new.

Just like car developers get completely shafted by the way today's car market works ;)

:popcorn

Did you never notice that? When you go into a store to buy a just-released game, and the cashier tries to sell you the used copy instead? And when you insist on buying it new, he gets that dejected look on his face?

Nope, I buy games, movies.... online, and have been doing so for... oh 11-12 years. Microsoft's strategy is simply backfiring against themselves. If they want to fight GameStop and the idiots like them, do that and leave the rest of us alone.

When some guy buys a brand new game, then they make money. When someone buys a used game from say EB games, MS and the developer/studio/whatever don't see a penny.

Doesn't mean they lose a single penny. In fact they might get even more money out of it, seeing as how I have bought a used game, played it recommended it to friends and they have then gone out and bought the game.

Let's add this, too. With MS's new system you cannot loan a game to a friend, you cannot try a game out before you buy. This will potentially hurt or kill off GameFly, Redbox and other game rental services.

Yeah and honestly I have bought dozens (brand new!!) games literally after having borrowed a game from friends... loads of money they wouldn't have gotten if I hadn't been able to borrow said game in the first place.
 
I saw a quote earlier from one of the developers at Quantic Dream. He said that Heavy Rain sold around two million copies, but over three million people played it, according to statistics from Sony's trophy servers. According to him, that's over a million lost sales.

On the flip side, it looks like a million people traded the game in. And I can personally attest to the fact that a new copy is extremely difficult to find (I'm fairly sure the game is actually out of print). There are NOT a million brand new copies of the game sitting on the shelves collecting dust. And strictly speaking, developers get their cut from the number of units that are shipped. Which implies that all of the copies of Heavy Rain that exist are already on the streets. Used is pretty much the only way to buy it.

Now this IS a valid concern... what if you want to buy that older game that's not being sold new any more? Can Microsoft guarantee that every Xbox One title will be always available to purchase new (physical or digital), for at least say.. the next twelve years or so? Or perhaps an attempt to make us buy the game at launch for full price under the fear that we may not be able to buy it on sale a year from now?
 
I saw a quote earlier from one of the developers at Quantic Dream. He said that Heavy Rain sold around two million copies, but over three million people played it, according to statistics from Sony's trophy servers. According to him, that's over a million lost sales.
But, it's not lost sales. There is nothing at all that says that alleged other million people that played it would have purchased it new.

Here's an article with the Quantic Dream lamenting about it: Lost Heavy Rain Sales Blamed on Used Games which states:

There is at least one issue worth pointing out in what he had to say. He compares the number of people who earned Trophies in Heavy Rain with the number of people who bought it and suggests the difference is the number of people who would have otherwise bought the game new. This fails to account for people who played the game through a rental service like GameFly, as well as people in the same household who played the same copy on different PlayStation Network names. Even if we forget about the numbers that those two categories of people account for, it's wrong to assume that every person who purchased a used copy would have purchased the game at a full price.

His figures of 5 to 10 million Euros (which, as noted above, equate to about $6.8 and $13.6 million USD) also don't account for the same copy of the game representing multiple sales of downloadable content. In other words, two new copies of the game could be sold; one person keeps it and never buys DLC, but the other person buys DLC and then sells the game to someone who also purchases DLC. Presumably Quantic Dream has no way of tracking that, in which case it can't account for the money it did make off of used game buyers and players.

The secondhand market might very well be a bad thing for the industry, but de Fondaumiere's argument fails to really prove that's the case.
The article (as quoted above) points out that there is no way for the developer to prove his figuring that another million people played the game. His claim is simply a bit outrageous and just silly because there is no way for him to prove his point.

And again, I offer: he got paid for those copies.
 
You make very valid points JD. At this moment I'm too lazy to put any really thought behind my response so I'll just say that MS has every right to earn money off of used money sales and they only reason that they are doing this and not movie studios, car manufacturers and house builders is because they're the only ones that have the balls to do it and because they just can. Screwing over companies like EB, game fly, etc. isn't their problem at all. Those groups I mentioned before wouldn't even bat an eyelash if they drove their secondhand groups out of business because it has nothing to do with them.

And as for not being able to test out a game before buying it because retal places go out of business? That's why they have demos on Xbox live for you to download.
 
You did read the other two paragraphs of my post, didn't you, JD? I bought Heavy Rain used, and I even defended that decision.
 
To address a few arguments here.

First, on the issue of "It's greedy of MS to try to make everyone buy a game new. No other industry does this." Yes, it's "greedy." Or you could say it's good business. MS has the ability to do this. Milton Bradley doesn't, when they sell you a physical copy of Monopoly. Or, for that matter, any entertainment content provider/publisher, when they sell you a physical copy. But don't, for a second, think they WOULDN'T do this if they could figure out a way to give you a physical copy that was only licensed to you. I guarantee you, if Penguin Books could figure out how to "lock" your book to some biometric measure, or to have it erase itself when you try to give it to someone else, they'd do it in a heartbeat. Why? Because of the reasons already mentioned. Every time a used item sale takes place, the original producer loses out on a potential sale of a new item. Oh, and I guarantee you that car manufacturers would do this too, if they could. The only reason they don't is because they can't figure out how. MS has figured out how (for now).

Second, on the issue of "But what about Gamefly and Redbox?!" I expect MS' answer would be "Screw 'em. Not our problem." And they'd be right. This will end Gamefly for MS titles. And maybe PS and Wii titles, if they go a similar route (which I'd bet they'll try to do once they figure out a way to do it).


What we're dealing with in all of this is a clash of interests. It is in MS -- and every content producer's -- interest to force new sales. It is in gamers' interest to NOT have to pay full price for games. It is in retailers' and renters' interests to allow them to continue selling/renting used games. MS has found a way to serve its own interests and the interests of the retailers who are willing to partner with them. The interests of gamers and renters are diametrically opposed to MS' interests, though, so there's no reconciling them.

Most of the arguments against this seem to boil down to "But I don't like it." As a consumer, it's everyone's choice to decide what they like and don't like, and where and how they'll spend their money. But the simple fact is this: saying "I don't like it," even en masse, isn't going to stop MS nor any of the other content producers, from eventually switching to this system. If they have the infrastructure and think the market's there, they'll do it. They're working to condition the market daily, from things like Netflix/Amazon streaming, to Kindle, to Steam, even to MS' current downloadable marketplace on XBL. They're getting customers used to the notion that they don't have unlimited "ownership" of the intellectual property they pay for.

This may mean that MS has to adjust its price points to convince people to buy into the new approach. After all, Apple couldn't sell you a full CD for $15 on iTunes. They had to drop it to a point that the market would bear -- $10 for an album and $0.99 for a song. But the market DID bear that price and iTunes was a success. Other similar enterprises have worked out, like Amazon's digital delivery stuff. Plenty of PC gamers buy digital copies of games now, too. What happens if the distributor of that digital copy stops making the game available for download and you lose your installation? People accept that risk all the time now. Hardcore gamers, even.

It's this apparent acceptance -- sometimes grudgingly, sometimes willingly -- and the strong interests by the content producers to make every dollar possible that leads me to think that they will shift as much as possible to a model that will have as little possible residing on an end-user's system. Streaming is ideal for this, assuming the broadband connection and hardware exists to support it. They've figured out how to do this for Netflix. They'll figure out how to do this for gaming eventually, I suspect. It's just a matter of time.

People will undoubtedly figure out ways around this, too. Some recording device will be created to construct a "virtual environment" for the game so it can be played offline and locally. Or they'll figure out how to create a DVR software program that lets you "rip" Netflix streams. No delivery mechanism is 100% impervious to hacking or piracy. But for the time being at least, streaming offers a LOT more security than physical copies, so I fully expect that content producers will be moving in that direction ASAP, consumer resistance be damned.

We may not like it, but enough people out there will accept it that it will happen.
 
I think we're still a ways off from full-blown streaming. The infrastructure for it just isn't there yet, and latency is still a big issue. It'll happen eventually, but not for a while yet. That's why most people consider MS's claims of "cloud computing" to make the games better is being viewed largely as marketing BS, most likely attempting to counter backlash about the system not being as powerful as PS4.

I don't think what they're doing here is trying to counter piracy directly, just the secondhand market. Download-only titles can help with that, but MS isn't really planning in that direction, given that they've only included a 500GB hard drive in the system. If they really wanted to push downloadable titles as the wave of the future, the drive would have been at least four times the size (I would consider 2TB a minimum for a system like this, if it requires HDD installation of everything, given the size of the games moving forward).

I've always thought that a good way to counter piracy would be to have a portion of the game simply missing from the local storage (either disc or HDD). So when you connect the game, it needs to download some little bit of code to complete the main executable, or something small like the main menu interface, just a couple of kilobytes that downloads so quickly you don't even notice. Store it only in memory and not on the drive, so it makes it a hell of a lot more difficult to capture it for pirating purposes. That does bring up the whole "online only" argument, but it wouldn't be quite so bad given the small amount of data being transferred, and as long as they have the proper redundancies in place for big launches (which is what bit SimCity and Diablo in the ass at their respective launches).

Your post there did trigger another thought, though.. it's a given that the system will be "hacked" to allow pirated software to run. If MS's used-game policy and licensing is too strict in regards to pricing, where a used game no longer offers the same savings as it did previously, it may actually drive more people to pirate the games. High price and inconvenience (especially the latter) are the main reasons people pirate in the first place. I'm willing to bet that online services like Steam (for PC games) and Netflix (for movies) have had a far more significant impact on piracy than the publishers and distributors are willing to admit.
 
None of this is about piracy, it's about making cash just like all these companies trying DRM on their games only to face a backlash when it doesn't work. What amazes me is younger gamers don't care about DRM, they've been brainwashed already into thinking nothing of not owning a physical disc. DRM is going to be the death of some companies one of these days.
 
That one's old. Their statement was in response to the rumors that the system would completely block all used game sales of any kind. They followed up a couple days later with the concept of authorized retailers running the sale/trade through the MS servers and everyone getting a piece of the pie.
 
This is going to be the best example of why DRM in any form doesn't work well when the purchase isn't digital. Once they move to all digital online purchases from a steam like setup then they can block used games and won't get a backlash but till then they're screwed. I bet Sony is having a party every time more bad news about this thing comes out. They'd have to screw up really big to lose ps4 sales now.
 
given that they've only included a 500GB hard drive in the system. If they really wanted to push downloadable titles as the wave of the future, the drive would have been at least four times the size (I would consider 2TB a minimum for a system like this, if it requires HDD installation of everything, given the size of the games moving forward).

Exactly. I got the 250gb HDD for the 360 about 5 months before it was available in general stores and by the time they started selling it I had already filled it to about 90% of the capacity installing games, downloading game videos and one or two demos. Now moving on to XONE with a HDD twice the size... but the games are like 10 times the size. It's not rocket science... 500gb is a joke. Just like the original 20gb was for the 360. If they call it a "next-gen" console then release a "next-gen" and not "last-gen".
 
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I'm not ashamed at all to see MS shoot themselves in the foot. The backlash and the bad press they're getting is well deserved in my opinion.
 
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