Hydin, the Post Office, and a Missing Crystal

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Chris, you know I like ya, so please take this constructively. :)

You really need to just bite the bullet on this and send him another one. There's an old saying that a satisfied customer tells all his friends, an UNsatisfied customer tells EVERYBODY. I don't want to see you get any deeper into that rut- I've been there and done that.

Speaking of which, I've got a van full o' overdue stuff I gotta get out today, GOOD LUCK.

-Sarge
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SgtFang @ Mar 9 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]1435919[/snapback]</div>
Chris, you know I like ya, so please take this constructively. :)

You really need to just bite the bullet on this and send him another one. There's an old saying that a satisfied customer tells all his friends, an UNsatisfied customer tells EVERYBODY. I don't want to see you get any deeper into that rut- I've been there and done that.

Speaking of which, I've got a van full o' overdue stuff I gotta get out today, GOOD LUCK.

-Sarge
[/b]


Speaks volumes Sarge. I for one will never even consider doing business with Hydin based on his customer service skills with this mess. Piss poor if you ask me. Just refund the money or send another crystal. Stop playing and finish this transaction.
 
6 minor points to make, and I am done with the thread. As I said before, I have made my decision, and I am sticking with it.

Point 1 - Everyone pointing out that "When I sell something and it goes missing, I replace it and eat the cost" (or some other form of that statement), chances are the thing/item/greeblie/doohickey you are selling you are making a profit off of. That was not the case in this situation. I am not a store, I am not a website, I am a person, who did an at cost run of these things. Maybe to some people at cost means "oh, the cost plus a few bucks for me on the side for my troubles". It doesn't mean that to me. That "few bucks on the side" equals profit, and that means it wasn't "at cost". Same with the map run by adam. Oddly enough, no complaints on that, even with some going poof across the pond and replacements sent out.

Point 2 - A few complaints in the other thread , plus this one about shipping. Specifically Juno's comment. You got the item, it was free (I ate shipping both times), and yet somehow I am still a wrong/evil bad guy because you got what you didn't pay for, free? If you hadn't received the item, I can totally understand being angry or upset, but having gotten the item, and having it not cost you a dime... I fail to see how that really can add up to "not good". You pm'd me, I did some research, I solved the problem. As far as the mail system down here.. Hate to break it to everyone but this place is STILL cluster@#$%.ed since katrina. All the shipping companies are still somewhat messed up. The USPS (god love em, I know I do) are doing they best they can, but I got in a letter yesterday , postmarked december 12. Sometimes bad things happen. To keep this in the best possible price bracket, I chose USPS priority, and it worked out great except for one guy.

Point 3 - "slow on offering compromises". I had to wait until I heard back from the USPS on anything. I still haven't heard squat. When I got tired of waiting and tired of the back and forth posts, as well as the peanut gallery posts, I made offers I could do immediately. That didn't work out, so I decided to just go with another crystal. Between the factories vacation and the fact I have to order these (not build/pour resin, etc), it's gonna take a little while.

Point 4 - "why I am still charging shipping". Mainly, it wouldn't be fair to charge one guy shipping for his crystal, and not charge the other guy. I can't afford to eat the shipping as well as the crystal costs, so this is the best I can do. Sorry if you think it sucks, but that is the best I can do. I am not gonna have a double standard on this. It wouldn't be right.

Point 5- I will be the first to admit I am a slow shipper. Never denied it. Doesn't happen on EVERY sale, but sometimes life gets in the way of me getting a box out, and it takes a few days to have it mailed out. That is a lot different than "not shipping". If 40 or 50 people hadn't gotten their crystals, and I wasn't around then yea, I can see the whole "you scamming thief." aspect of this. That wasn't the situation, and yet again, I find the accusations pretty annoying. From the old thread of hyperdyne saying "oh yea I totally got one of his crystals for dirt cheap from some other guy" (ironic considering the digital recasting incident he posted earlier this week) to the "you have no proof you shipped it so you = thief" in this thread. I never once said "there is no proof you didn't get it. that makes you a thief.", so I don't appreciate it when it's lobbed at me.

Point 6 - the fact I am ordering new crystals for these guys seems to have been completely not read by a good chunk of the thread posters. Logically, to me, this closes the issue, but hey, why not dogpile while the dogpiling is good.

All I see here is the fact I legally/morally do not have to offer any form of "restitution", yet I am, and I am still getting "yelled at" by random people because I am trying to fix a problem the best/only way I can. What a horrible seller I must be, going out of my way to fix a problem that I don't have to, because insurance was never gotten.

..... Yep, that covers it all. I'm done.
Chris
 
Ok, some facts from me besides:

1. I got a USPS notification, that my crystal has been damaged during transport while being on route to my destination.

2. I chose NOT to insure that crystal and I was aware, of what I am doing (see the 5$ value declaration). If it's lost or broken, it my fault and not Chris'...

3. While USPS stated by non-delivering, they sent it back to sender, something happend in between that are out of control and not within the hands of me or Chris. Chris since then hasn't seen returned crystal from USPS to inspect what kind of damage they did.

And this is what I got from USPS:

USPS%20note.png

USPS%20notebag.png


So you can't blame or accuse Chris being a thief or a liar, he was always helpful as far as he could do, and I don't think his compremise was late, because if I was in his shoes, I would have done the same and waited for an answer from USPS that never really came.
 
Hydin I have to ask you a question on a serious note...

Lets turn the table here...

Lets set the story in reverse...

1. Kerr pays by money order and he sent it USPS with deliverly confirmation....

2. The money order never arrives...

3. Kerr has the same type of "proof" you have of shipping, that being a tracking number that shows postage paid for but the package never entering the mail system...

Question do you accept Kerr's "proof" of sending you money and send out the crystal to him?

I'm willing to bet when you look at it this way, you can easily see the irony...
 
Chris,

Your ability to rationalize your bad choices on this is amazing.

In answer to your "points":

1. Run was at cost...BS.... By your own admission, the rate you sold these to RPF'rs at was your "cost". You then auctioned the "extras" on the run via ebay for very substantial amounts. That means you made a profit on the run overall. Quit whining "at cost".

2. Juno's point is that you at best were in error when you initially insisted you shipped the items. At worst, you lied. Her point was not that you NEVER shipped so don't try and twist her message.

3. You did not HAVE TO wait, you CHOSE to wait. Many sellers here have chosen to act immediately. Again, quit trying to act the victim here.

4. You shouldn't have charged EITHER guy ANYTHING for their replacements. You have no proof you shipped, except your word and as Juno and others have pointed out, your word has a habit of being "mistaken".

5. Don't like the accusations? Then don't insist you shipped only to then admit "oops I was wrong, it was really lost in the clutter of my home, now I'll really ship it and I'll include some freebies so you don't complain publicly" on such a consistent basis. And before you argue "That was only 1 time" be aware Juno is just the only one speaking up, there are numerous others...

6. No one missed your offer to "order new crystals". We also didn't miss you insisting they pay 1/2 the cost plus shipping or whatever.

Again, MODS these are unnaceptable practices. Please suspend Hydin's JY privleges until he makes this right in the correct manner.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(atacpdx @ Mar 9 2007, 08:33 PM) [snapback]1436134[/snapback]</div>
Again, MODS these are unnaceptable practices. Please suspend Hydin's JY privleges until he makes this right in the correct manner.
[/b]

We are looking into this matter and will make a decision in the near future.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(atacpdx @ Mar 9 2007, 07:03 PM) [snapback]1436134[/snapback]</div>
Again, MODS these are unnaceptable practices. Please suspend Hydin's JY privleges until he makes this right in the correct manner.
[/b]

While some might feel the situation is unacceptable, others do not. Chris has offered several very viable solutions and they have been refused. What if Kerr did receive the crystal and is trying to milk out another one? That is a very real possiblity as well, but we tend to gravitate toward penalizing one person. Since all of the other clear crystals (other than the damaged one) made it to where they were going, this option actually makes more sense. I'm not saying it is the case, I don't believe it to be the case, but it is just as likely as the other.

There is no winner either way. I think the mods would be better off to say that this conversation is going nowhere and should be removed from the board.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kerr Avon @ Mar 8 2007, 10:11 PM) [snapback]1435342[/snapback]</div>
As it turns out, there is no proof that a package was shipped to me. While Hydin did speak to a floor manager, as it turns out she misrepresented some facts. The fact is that a label was generated online, but at no time did any post office scan the package that this label was supposed to be put on. Normally, a post office would scan the package as they receive it if it was dropped off by a person and then it would be picked up by the system on the tracking information. The label that Hydin generated shows no evidence of being used. [/b]



I have shipped hundreds of items and I can tell you unequivocally that not every package gets scanned. I check all of my shipments and there have been several occasions where the customer has received the item but the USPS website states There is no record of this item.

I have also contacted people once I see their package has been delivered only to find out that they do not have it and then they pick it up at the Post Office the next day

Bottom Line: Delivery CON-firmation is a joke and I'm glad it's free when you buy postage on line because otherwise I wouldn't use it.









<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SFPROPS @ Mar 9 2007, 09:01 AM) [snapback]1435620[/snapback]</div>
This is the way I always took the vedor/buyer relationship to be. You buy something from Amazon.com that never shows up, and they don't have any evidence that it ever shipped and was delivered? They send you another one. They don't depend on you to purchase insurance - insurance is protection for the shipper, not the buyer. When you sell something "as is", you note it.
[/b]

Well I doubt any of us make as much money as Amazon so this is a poor comparison.

We are supposed to be a community of hobbyists, so much for that premise.

I have a very simple rule.

If you buy something from me and choose not to insure it, it is your loss.

If you do not have the forethought to request insurance it's your fault.

The ONLY way Hydin could be held responsible is if Kerr paid for insurance and Hydin elected not to cover it.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(exoray @ Mar 9 2007, 06:19 PM) [snapback]1436103[/snapback]</div>
Hydin I have to ask you a question on a serious note...

Lets turn the table here...

Lets set the story in reverse...

1. Kerr pays by money order and he sent it USPS with deliverly confirmation....

2. The money order never arrives...

3. Kerr has the same type of "proof" you have of shipping, that being a tracking number that shows postage paid for but the package never entering the mail system...

Question do you accept Kerr's "proof" of sending you money and send out the crystal to him?

I'm willing to bet when you look at it this way, you can easily see the irony...
[/b]


NO

Kerr would have the opportunity to have the money order cancelled and he will get his money back.

But lets put this into better hypothetical context.

Kerr goes to a bank and buys some travelers checks and assumes they come with some sort of "lost/indemnity insurance". They get stolen so he goes to the bank to file a claim.

They say, I see you didn't purchase insurance for these, I'm sorry there is nothing we can do.

Whats Kerr going to do, stand in front of the bank and tell everyone how the bank ripped him off????




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(atacpdx @ Mar 9 2007, 07:03 PM) [snapback]1436134[/snapback]</div>
1. Run was at cost...BS.... By your own admission, the rate you sold these to RPF'rs at was your "cost". You then auctioned the "extras" on the run via ebay for very substantial amounts. That means you made a profit on the run overall. Quit whining "at cost".

[/b]


This statement leads me to believe that you have never run a large scale project.

Let me fill you in on one important factor most people do not consider

If you have 60 people buy an manufactured item, you can not only have 60 made, you have to have extra made.

Who eats the costs of those extra on an At Cost Project?

The seller, the group?

Neither, the seller should have the opportunity to sell them at what every profit he can get and NONE of the people that paid cost on the item should resent the seller and people that were not even part of the group shouldn't even have the right to express an opinion on the matter.




This situation comes down to 4 simple facts.

1. Hydin sold a lot of crystals to a group and all but 1 person received their item.

2. Some people purchased insurance, some didn;t.

3. Kerr didn't and now he wants a refund based on his claim that he never received the item.

4. The PO can not confirm nor deny the package was shipped or received, which is par for the course

Based on these facts, Hydin has no responsibility to replace the item and Kerr should be grateful for anything Hydin offers to do.





This is another point to consider.

If Hydin had caved it would have done him no good, it's clear that some people are using this issue to come down on a person they don't like and that's a shame.


Hydin may of may not be a great guy, but no matter what, he's a fellow RPFer and very enthusiastic about this hobby, I am floored by the way some people have acted.


In fact, I have already decided that based on the general behavior of the vocal majority in this issue that I will NEVER do another ACP, and I'm sure others feel the same way.
 
Although I rarely agree with Boba Debt on...this type of thing. :)
I do on agree with him on this, and although I try to stay out of these public lynchings I realized that is unfair to Chris (or to anyone I support) to not be willing to say so in public.
Overall it seems like a lot more negative attitudes around the boards these last few weeks (at least in the postings) - I hope it passes. :)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(teecrooz @ Mar 10 2007, 12:27 AM) [snapback]1436155[/snapback]</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(atacpdx @ Mar 9 2007, 07:03 PM) [snapback]1436134[/snapback]
Again, MODS these are unnaceptable practices. Please suspend Hydin's JY privleges until he makes this right in the correct manner.
[/b]

While some might feel the situation is unacceptable, others do not. Chris has offered several very viable solutions and they have been refused. What if Kerr did receive the crystal and is trying to milk out another one? That is a very real possiblity as well, but we tend to gravitate toward penalizing one person. Since all of the other clear crystals (other than the damaged one) made it to where they were going, this option actually makes more sense. I'm not saying it is the case, I don't believe it to be the case, but it is just as likely as the other.

There is no winner either way. I think the mods would be better off to say that this conversation is going nowhere and should be removed from the board.
[/b][/quote]


If there wasn't a history on hydin's part of "claiming" he shipped and then saying "oops my bad I forgot I lost the box and it didn't ship so I'll ship it now", then I'd be inclined to give more benefit of the doubt. As for Kerr Avon, despite my dislike for him, I am the 1st to say he has an excellent reputation with regards to transactions. Based on both their history, what is most likely is Kerr's crystal never shipped due to a clerical error on Hydin's part.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boba Debt @ Mar 9 2007, 07:31 PM) [snapback]1436214[/snapback]</div>
But lets put this into better hypothetical context.

Kerr goes to a bank and buys some travelers checks and assumes they come with some sort of "lost/indemnity insurance". They get stolen so he goes to the bank to file a claim.

They say, I see you didn't purchase insurance for these, I'm sorry there is nothing we can do.[/b]

:confused :confused :confused :confused

Huh? How did we go from non-delivery of an item to an item stolen after delivery?

To keep inline with what really happened your scenerio would be better written to the effect of, I know it doesn't fit your side of the case though...

Kerr goes to bank and buys some travelers checks, hands the teller the money and she fails to deliver the travelers checks and keeps the money...

Whats Kerr going to do, stand in front of the bank and tell everyone how the bank ripped him off????[/b]

Yep, if he paid for the travelers checks and they never delivered them I would expect nothing less... Although I highly suspect a bank wouldn't play hard ball and would deliver the goods...
 
Boba Debt,

Sorry to disappoint but I run large scale projects all the time. My ad agency / print shop produces over 25,000 imprinted textile items a month and we fulfill the orders for them on behalf of large clients.

Hydin claimed he made nothing on these crystals....That simply isn't true.

It is simple math.

If I make a product for 60 people but the run minimum is 100 and cost per is $10.00 plus a $100.00 set-up fee then my cost per is $11 and my total out of pocket is $1100.00.

(Hydin claims his cost per is the $75 or whatever he sold them for to RPF's.)

After selling 60 I have recouped $660 correct?

I now ebay the remaining 40 at a modest $35 for a total of $1400.

$660 + $1400 is $2060. I made a profit of $960.00

By Hydin's own admission, he ebay'd the extras and they appear to have gone for between $100 and $200 each. As that is more than the $75 per he claims was his true cost, he made a profit on the run...

Now explain where that logic jumps the tracks BD?

He claimed he made ZERO ON THE RUN and used that lack of profit as a reason to justify an inability to refund his TWO customers....I merely pointed out that he did in fact make a profit and was therefore being less than honest with that claim. I never claimed he had no right to profit. I only claim he can't have it both ways. It was either a for profit run or it wasn't and he appears to have made profit....

As for what Kerr and that other customer are entitled to or not, well that is up to the community as a whole BD and the mods. The deal was made in the community and the community is certainly entitled to voice its opinion. I'm surprised that you, as one who generally advocates free speech for this community are now arguing against it. I suppose values change when pocket books get involved. Regardless, I have faith the mods will respect the majority of opinions and react accordingly in supporting Kerr in this matter.
 
The point that your ad agency / print shop produces over 25,000 imprinted textile items a month is irrelevant, since I'm sure you make a comfortable profit.

Do something for a charity at cost, blow the print run, have to pay out of pocket to re-print the run and then tell me it's not a big deal.

Better yet, do an At Cost Project HERE and then share your feelings about it.



But lets look at your numbers in a different way

If I have a group of 60 people and can have a quantity of 60 units manufactured for $10 that would be good.

But if I can have a quantity of 100 units manufactured for $5 each I could save 60 people $5, then if I sold the remaining 40 units for $20 that would be a win/win situation and the group should appreciate my willingness to take a risk for their benefit and not be sour because I made some money.



The point of an At Cost Project is that you sell the item to the "group" at your cost, not that your not allowed to make profit from people not in the group.

To assume that is ridiculous.

Have you considered that Hydin may have had expenses he didn't take into account?

Would you be so adamant if the same crystals sold on ebay for less then $75?

If you were part of the group and Hydin sold 10 crystals at a $25 per crystal loss would you be willing to chip in to cover his loss?



Oppression of Free Speech? That's a long reach. I'm just saying that this issue is better left to people that have experience and complete understanding of everything involved, "Big Picture" people, not armchair quarterbacks with nothing invested in the project.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Exoray, my side of this case is that Kerr has no rights since he did not pay for insurance

Your version of events assumes Hydin absolutely didn't ship the item.

In my version the POST OFFICE is the thief that stole Kerrs item.

It's a very simplified analogy.
 
Maybe all of us can sort this out and bring peace back. I'll start with a pledge of $3.00 towards a refund for Kerr. If anyone else wants to put in, I'm sure a couple of bucks from each of us can give him a refund and broaden our sense of community.
 
Point 2 - A few complaints in the other thread , plus this one about shipping. Specifically Juno's comment. You got the item, it was free (I ate shipping both times), and yet somehow I am still a wrong/evil bad guy because you got what you didn't pay for, free? If you hadn't received the item, I can totally understand being angry or upset, but having gotten the item, and having it not cost you a dime... I fail to see how that really can add up to "not good". You pm'd me, I did some research, I solved the problem. As far as the mail system down here.. Hate to break it to everyone but this place is STILL cluster@#$%.ed since katrina. All the shipping companies are still somewhat messed up. The USPS (god love em, I know I do) are doing they best they can, but I got in a letter yesterday , postmarked december 12. Sometimes bad things happen. To keep this in the best possible price bracket, I chose USPS priority, and it worked out great except for one guy.[/b]

Chris, as you may recall, I ALSO shipped the item I made to the winner for FREE and would have shipped the replacement for FREE (although since the latter did not happen, I can't really prove it). Also, you were the one that STARTED the Pay-It-Forward thread, so to complain that I have no right to be disappointed in the tardiness of my prize is a bit undeserved. Oh, and I should mention that I was tardy in shipping my item out. Only after mine had been received by the winner and yours had not been received by me, did I PM you.

My posting of those PMs was meant to demonstrate the problems you had shipping in the past. You told me you HAD shipped the item when it was in fact misplaced. How can you be certain you shipped Kerr's crystal? If you have a history of misplacing items, should you not admit that there is a possibility that you did it again?

BD:
If Hydin had caved it would have done him no good, it's clear that some people are using this issue to come down on a person they don't like and that's a shame.[/b]

I for one would not have seen it as caving, and would have been impressed that he had admitted he was wrong and / or fixed the situation.

Hydin may of may not be a great guy, but no matter what, he's a fellow RPFer and very enthusiastic about this hobby, I am floored by the way some people have acted.[/b]

I don't think he's "not a great guy," which is why I'm surprised at these events. I knew from my experience with him that he was a tardy shipper . . . and to be honest I was wary of being involved in any of his projects because of what was clearly absent-mindedness.

I should also state that being a fellow RPFer and having enthusiasm for prop replicas do not give one a free ticket to respect or authority.

After typing all this, I realize that all this conversation is about as effective as pushing a rope.
 
Ahhhhh BD...

Again you errr in your assumptions....

I hardly lack in experience. My firm has in fact misprinted, eaten runs and printed for charity at cost. In fact we printed over 5,000 shirts for a runners road race against cancer recently at material cost and donated the labor. They sent the wrong art file....we used it without confirming due to a tight deadline. We had to re-print the entire run gratis. So I know all to well how it feels. I also know all to well the accounting.

Again, no one said he can't make a profit and hear me on this...I'm not faulting him for selling the extras at a large profit.... I'm faulting him for saying he has no money for a full and immediate refund because he made nothing on the run... No why is that so hard for you to grasp?.? :unsure

As for "Big Picture" people, well I am unsure what makes you such a qualified candidate for that title but Whatever $$$ threshold you are setting to qualify I expect I exceed that level handily.

I notice you fail to contest his making money on the extras or that he has a track record of lying about his slow shipping but rather ignore these facts for the convenience of making your arguement....

SO WHO IS MISSING THE BIG PICTURE? :angel
 
I don't understand the at-cost project thing.

hydin had a minimum order, more then he had customers, so he sold the extras on ebay. If the project was at-cost, then RPF'ers paid the exact bare minumum for the crystals they recieved? Each crystal they recieved was at-cost, correct?

So, hydin could have charged more, made a profit, and recouped all of his invested money right off the bat. Everyone seems to be bitching because he sold extras on ebay and 'made a profit', would it have been better if he had just charged more for each crystal? Causing more RPF'ers to spend more money out-of-pocket? Meaning possibly less people could have afforded them and possible not allowing the run at all?

So, hydin made a profit off ebay and didn't have to screw RPF'ers by charging more? Sounds like a win-win to me.

Everyone who recieved crystals seem happy. I really hope Kerr recieves a crystal. Are people publicly dogpilling on hydin people who ordered and recieved crystals, or just people who have had slow shipping issues with him in the past?

I'm not defending hydin, even though I agree with Boba Debt's post, but I really want Kerr to get a crystal. I hope this situation will not sour his love of this prop when it arrives.
 
atacpdx, if you can honestly tell me that you re-printed all 5000 of those shirts and never once considered telling the Cancer agency to frack off I will be very impressed

And I'm not missing anything.

I'm not sure of the exact time Hydin sold the extras but I'm sure he hadn't already sold them when he made his initial claims that he didn't make any money on the run.


And I'm sure that when he sold them he needed the money for things that he considered to be more important that a single whining customer, especially since he was under the impression that the receiving PO lost the item and that they might find it.




Why am I more qualified then you?

Simple, I have next to no experience in selling items and or services except in an environment such as an online forum or ebay.

I also know that as a hobbyist, I have lost great sums of money following the premise that the customer is always right.

Just because I have the resources to protect my reputation does that mean that everyone should be required to do the same?

If the mods force Hydin to give in, I can guarantee you this would give some less scrupulous buyers the leverage they need to exploit people that sell on the RPF.




As for Hydins track record lets take a closer look.

I say someone should ask hydin how many items he has shipped and then compare it to how many problems he has had. From what I have read he shipped a lot of crystals and maps in a very short time frame and fixed all but one of the problems.


That seems like a decent track record.
 
i didn't buy insurance on my crystal, simply because it was never mentioned.

had my crystal been lost or not sent, i'd be in the same situation as Kerr. I wouldn't want people to say to me, oh well, you forgot, that was your fault.

If i were to send or sell anything, as a principal, i'd mention it to the buyer or just buy it myself. But apparently, that is just me...

Kerr, i join the list of people donating cash for your loss.
 
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