MattMunson
Master Member
I'm no doctor, but here's what I think:
If you're this bent over a few bucks, find a cheaper hobby
If you're this bent over a few bucks, find a cheaper hobby
Hydin, the Post Office, and a Missing Crystal
- Thread starter Kerr Avon
- Start date
- Status
laszlo
Sr Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MattMunson @ Mar 10 2007, 10:42 AM) [snapback]1436466[/snapback]</div>
Agreed. Most of the buying we do here is not in the same realm as when you deal with an online registered company. If you do not ask for insurance - assume it has none and take that risk. I've lost parcels before - and I just take it as part of the hobby - though if I buy an expensive item I will make it my responsibility to get it insured.
Everyone likes to blame someone else for a mistake - I'm not sure our consumer 'rights' always apply in this community, and I think that is Ok.
Relax.
I'm no doctor, but here's what I think:
If you're this bent over a few bucks, find a cheaper hobby
[/b]
Agreed. Most of the buying we do here is not in the same realm as when you deal with an online registered company. If you do not ask for insurance - assume it has none and take that risk. I've lost parcels before - and I just take it as part of the hobby - though if I buy an expensive item I will make it my responsibility to get it insured.
Everyone likes to blame someone else for a mistake - I'm not sure our consumer 'rights' always apply in this community, and I think that is Ok.
Relax.
Tatooine_Todd
Sr Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darth Kahnt @ Mar 10 2007, 12:10 AM) [snapback]1436140[/snapback]</div>
We are looking into this matter and will make a decision in the near future.
[/b][/quote]
I will be very dissapointed if the staff bans Hydin from the JY for this transaction. There are 2 sides to this that can be argued. If he is banned then the mods had better restate the yard rules to say the Seller is always responsible for ANY non-delivery, insurance or not to either refund or replace.
I have never had a problem with delivery from Hydin, and I would say the vast majority would agree. There were mistakes on both sides, Kerr could've asked for insurance, he could've asked about the return/replacement policy up front, Hydin should've acted quicker and less defensively. Both those situations could've solved this early.
This transactin hardly rises to a banning offense, especially when viewed against the infractions of those already suspended.
We are looking into this matter and will make a decision in the near future.
[/b][/quote]
I will be very dissapointed if the staff bans Hydin from the JY for this transaction. There are 2 sides to this that can be argued. If he is banned then the mods had better restate the yard rules to say the Seller is always responsible for ANY non-delivery, insurance or not to either refund or replace.
I have never had a problem with delivery from Hydin, and I would say the vast majority would agree. There were mistakes on both sides, Kerr could've asked for insurance, he could've asked about the return/replacement policy up front, Hydin should've acted quicker and less defensively. Both those situations could've solved this early.
This transactin hardly rises to a banning offense, especially when viewed against the infractions of those already suspended.
Dear Lord... :unsure
I may be a relatively new member here (in terms of actually posting, anyway), but being a member of three or four other prop boards I've noticed these sort of threads catching like wildfire lately all over the bloody place. It's like a growing epidemic of sorts... don't know why *sigh*.
Primarily, I've always been more for building/collecting props myself, although I have dabbled a little in selling props. Granted, the items I've sold for the most part were one-offs -- spares/doubles of props I had in my own collection -- but regardless of the price/value of the piece(s) I've never been one to offer insurance and as such have never had any problems with those items getting to thier prospective buyers.
There was a short run of accurized 23C handles I did a while back, maybe a dozen or so, and even with a few extras on hand never had the need to provide any "above and beyond" customer service by mailing out replacements to anyone.
I won't say that sometimes the items I've sold took an eon or two to finally get to the buyer (in one case, it took almost TWO MONTHS for one package to get to the guy, and he was only down in the US). It's a given that the USPS -- and comparably, Canada Post -- isn't entirely reliable in properly tracking parcels or even getting them to where they need to go. That's just a fact of life when it comes to the Postal Service.
You can't always count on it to be 100% dependable. And, if you don't bother to put insurance on a prop item when it's shipped, then you run the risk of something happening to it and never being able to find out what. Essentially, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't pay that little extra to guarantee its safe arrival. If you don't, that's your choice. Can't blame anyone else for that.
Regardless of whether it's something offered upfront by the seller, or requested by the buyer, it's ultimately up to the discretion of the BUYER whether or not to have that little bit of added security. I for one have rarely ever asked for or paid for insurance on any item I've bought online, and am well aware that should it go missing it was my own damn fault for not doing so. A seller is not obligated to include insurance on all purchases.
Having been a seller, I can confidently say that as I know how the whole process works, and also having been a buyer I understand and accept that.
Of the customers I've dealt with that wanted additional insurance on thier packages, they always requested it right at the beginning of the transaction. As it's an "optional" feature/service, one doesn't necessarily have to state it as it should be a well-known fact that it's available. I have never had to offer insurance to those who wanted it; it was pretty much common sense to them to ask me about it. Nothing at all hard to do that, imho. If you're that worried about an item arriving at your doorstep, then just ask about insurance.
C'mon now... the way I see it, it's pretty much a no-brainer.
I personally don't see why ALL the responsibility of the transaction has to fall on the seller. To me, the buyer has just as much a stake in ensuring the transaction goes smoothly. That includes being prompt with payment, selecting which shipping method and adding on insurance if the buyer requests it. Looking at it in that way, the seller is doing nothing more than abiding by the buyer's wishes. He/she is not making those choices for the buyer, the buyer is, and the seller is simply following through on those actions.
I've always made it my business practice to inform the customer(s) when the package has shipped out, provide tracking info if there is any (all of the buyers I've dealt with who had insurance on thier items requested it outright on thier own, as they know I don't usually offer it), and do regular follow-ups with them to find out when they received the package.
To that end, I've adhered to my responsibilities as a seller. But, again, as most of the pieces I've sold are one-offs (with no way of me being able to produce more of them) there would be no way I could replace the item if lost. In that case, I either offer a full refund or do some online research to possibly find a similar item at about the same cost. I don't have to do the latter, but figure it's only a little time taken out of my day to try and accommodate the buyer in helping them get what they paid for.
My method of selling and the type of items I've offered are somewhat different than in the case illustrated here, but both as a seller and a buyer I've rarely had any major issues on either end of it. Packages I've either sent out or waited to receive, although somewhat delayed in arrival sometimes, have ALWAYS gotten to where they needed to go to. Guess I'm lucky in that respect, as I haven't had to go through a situation such as this yet.
I don't know if my long-winded thread made any sense to anyone here, lol (still trying to wake up off that one cup of morning coffee I've had), but I hope it helps to put things in perspective a little.
Anyway... in my mind, it's not so much a matter of responsibility to one's customers but more a matter of common courtesy to one's fellow hobbyists. Everyone has different business practices they abide by, and some will agree with those practices while others won't. That's just my take on this... :rolleyes
P.S., I personally don't think this is the appropriate venue in which to discuss this issue. If necessary, please take it to PM's or e-mails (between the parties involved, and perhaps the Admin/Mod group as well to help mediate). Either that, or do as has been done on other boards; set up a "Traders List" or "Buyer's Feedback List" in the JY forum. If it's absolutely necessary to discuss this publicly, then we should try to make an effort to keep it isolated in just one area of the board, and not have it spilling out into others...
I may be a relatively new member here (in terms of actually posting, anyway), but being a member of three or four other prop boards I've noticed these sort of threads catching like wildfire lately all over the bloody place. It's like a growing epidemic of sorts... don't know why *sigh*.
Primarily, I've always been more for building/collecting props myself, although I have dabbled a little in selling props. Granted, the items I've sold for the most part were one-offs -- spares/doubles of props I had in my own collection -- but regardless of the price/value of the piece(s) I've never been one to offer insurance and as such have never had any problems with those items getting to thier prospective buyers.
There was a short run of accurized 23C handles I did a while back, maybe a dozen or so, and even with a few extras on hand never had the need to provide any "above and beyond" customer service by mailing out replacements to anyone.
I won't say that sometimes the items I've sold took an eon or two to finally get to the buyer (in one case, it took almost TWO MONTHS for one package to get to the guy, and he was only down in the US). It's a given that the USPS -- and comparably, Canada Post -- isn't entirely reliable in properly tracking parcels or even getting them to where they need to go. That's just a fact of life when it comes to the Postal Service.
You can't always count on it to be 100% dependable. And, if you don't bother to put insurance on a prop item when it's shipped, then you run the risk of something happening to it and never being able to find out what. Essentially, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't pay that little extra to guarantee its safe arrival. If you don't, that's your choice. Can't blame anyone else for that.
Regardless of whether it's something offered upfront by the seller, or requested by the buyer, it's ultimately up to the discretion of the BUYER whether or not to have that little bit of added security. I for one have rarely ever asked for or paid for insurance on any item I've bought online, and am well aware that should it go missing it was my own damn fault for not doing so. A seller is not obligated to include insurance on all purchases.
Having been a seller, I can confidently say that as I know how the whole process works, and also having been a buyer I understand and accept that.
Of the customers I've dealt with that wanted additional insurance on thier packages, they always requested it right at the beginning of the transaction. As it's an "optional" feature/service, one doesn't necessarily have to state it as it should be a well-known fact that it's available. I have never had to offer insurance to those who wanted it; it was pretty much common sense to them to ask me about it. Nothing at all hard to do that, imho. If you're that worried about an item arriving at your doorstep, then just ask about insurance.
C'mon now... the way I see it, it's pretty much a no-brainer.
I personally don't see why ALL the responsibility of the transaction has to fall on the seller. To me, the buyer has just as much a stake in ensuring the transaction goes smoothly. That includes being prompt with payment, selecting which shipping method and adding on insurance if the buyer requests it. Looking at it in that way, the seller is doing nothing more than abiding by the buyer's wishes. He/she is not making those choices for the buyer, the buyer is, and the seller is simply following through on those actions.
I've always made it my business practice to inform the customer(s) when the package has shipped out, provide tracking info if there is any (all of the buyers I've dealt with who had insurance on thier items requested it outright on thier own, as they know I don't usually offer it), and do regular follow-ups with them to find out when they received the package.
To that end, I've adhered to my responsibilities as a seller. But, again, as most of the pieces I've sold are one-offs (with no way of me being able to produce more of them) there would be no way I could replace the item if lost. In that case, I either offer a full refund or do some online research to possibly find a similar item at about the same cost. I don't have to do the latter, but figure it's only a little time taken out of my day to try and accommodate the buyer in helping them get what they paid for.
My method of selling and the type of items I've offered are somewhat different than in the case illustrated here, but both as a seller and a buyer I've rarely had any major issues on either end of it. Packages I've either sent out or waited to receive, although somewhat delayed in arrival sometimes, have ALWAYS gotten to where they needed to go to. Guess I'm lucky in that respect, as I haven't had to go through a situation such as this yet.
I don't know if my long-winded thread made any sense to anyone here, lol (still trying to wake up off that one cup of morning coffee I've had), but I hope it helps to put things in perspective a little.
Anyway... in my mind, it's not so much a matter of responsibility to one's customers but more a matter of common courtesy to one's fellow hobbyists. Everyone has different business practices they abide by, and some will agree with those practices while others won't. That's just my take on this... :rolleyes
P.S., I personally don't think this is the appropriate venue in which to discuss this issue. If necessary, please take it to PM's or e-mails (between the parties involved, and perhaps the Admin/Mod group as well to help mediate). Either that, or do as has been done on other boards; set up a "Traders List" or "Buyer's Feedback List" in the JY forum. If it's absolutely necessary to discuss this publicly, then we should try to make an effort to keep it isolated in just one area of the board, and not have it spilling out into others...
Kerr Avon
Master Member
It's been an interesting number of responses, from Hydin and from people on the sidelines. First, I found a post from Hydin very interesting.
Hydin, you stated that after you set out the package, you were no longer responsible for it. I didn't see an answer to this when asked by someone else, so I ask again, did you set out a package on your doorstop for the PO to pickup? Then how do you even know it was picked up by them? If you placed it out in the open for anyone to walk by and pickup, that demonstrates a significant lack of responsibility on your part.
The fact is this package has never been scanned by the PO. Because of that, there is no proof it was ever in their hands. To get a scan on it, all you have to do is drop it off at the post office and have the deskclerk scan it into the system. It takes no great effort on your part to do so. The fact is the package has never been received. I can state that quite emphatically and truthfully, with evidence to back me up. With delivery confirmation, if it had been delivered it would have definately been scanned. As is, it was never delivered, and never delivered it was never scanned.
I have a spotless reputation when it comes to transactions on this board and on eBay. I've never had a problem with payment, nor a problem receiving or shipping something to anyone. No one can point out one instance of issues with my transactions. The same can not be said about Hydin. Whether he may have put the package on the doorstop, and it went missing, or if he simply forgot about my package while boxing up other people's package and thought he had shipped, there is one undisputable fact. This package has no proof of ever entering the US PO mail. That's a significant issue on the deal. There can be no doubt I kept up my side of the bargain, paying both the cost of the crystal and then the customs fees.
I'm not asking for Hydin's banning from the RPF or even just the JY, and I'm not asking for donations to cover a refund nor would accept it. I'm hardly in financial dire straits, but I do expect a level of honesty and honor among dealers. That's why this issue, which was closed in Hydin's thread as he was the starter, was hardly closed in actuallity.
As for the three potential "solutions," those solutions have hardly been respectable. One solution was to provide a new crystal to me at "only" half cost for the crystal, plus shipping. Another was to provide a refund of $40 because thats all the "extra" money he had on hand, all the while his eBay account and purchases on the JY continued to rise to nearly $1000. A third option involves waiting two more months for a crystal to be on hand to replace it, an offer that was only come to after selling off the spare crystals he had on eBay for significantly over the cost of what I paid for mine. As Hydin would have to have the money on hand to pay for a crystal that would cost him ~$80 from the manufacturer, then he should have the money on hand to provide it as a refund. Any reasonable dealer would have kept two crystals back in hand, one for myself and the other for the one that was broken, but he sold them without a thought, even after I pointed out that I was waiting for a replacement crystal and he had one on eBay at the time.
Hydin, you stated that after you set out the package, you were no longer responsible for it. I didn't see an answer to this when asked by someone else, so I ask again, did you set out a package on your doorstop for the PO to pickup? Then how do you even know it was picked up by them? If you placed it out in the open for anyone to walk by and pickup, that demonstrates a significant lack of responsibility on your part.
The fact is this package has never been scanned by the PO. Because of that, there is no proof it was ever in their hands. To get a scan on it, all you have to do is drop it off at the post office and have the deskclerk scan it into the system. It takes no great effort on your part to do so. The fact is the package has never been received. I can state that quite emphatically and truthfully, with evidence to back me up. With delivery confirmation, if it had been delivered it would have definately been scanned. As is, it was never delivered, and never delivered it was never scanned.
I have a spotless reputation when it comes to transactions on this board and on eBay. I've never had a problem with payment, nor a problem receiving or shipping something to anyone. No one can point out one instance of issues with my transactions. The same can not be said about Hydin. Whether he may have put the package on the doorstop, and it went missing, or if he simply forgot about my package while boxing up other people's package and thought he had shipped, there is one undisputable fact. This package has no proof of ever entering the US PO mail. That's a significant issue on the deal. There can be no doubt I kept up my side of the bargain, paying both the cost of the crystal and then the customs fees.
I'm not asking for Hydin's banning from the RPF or even just the JY, and I'm not asking for donations to cover a refund nor would accept it. I'm hardly in financial dire straits, but I do expect a level of honesty and honor among dealers. That's why this issue, which was closed in Hydin's thread as he was the starter, was hardly closed in actuallity.
As for the three potential "solutions," those solutions have hardly been respectable. One solution was to provide a new crystal to me at "only" half cost for the crystal, plus shipping. Another was to provide a refund of $40 because thats all the "extra" money he had on hand, all the while his eBay account and purchases on the JY continued to rise to nearly $1000. A third option involves waiting two more months for a crystal to be on hand to replace it, an offer that was only come to after selling off the spare crystals he had on eBay for significantly over the cost of what I paid for mine. As Hydin would have to have the money on hand to pay for a crystal that would cost him ~$80 from the manufacturer, then he should have the money on hand to provide it as a refund. Any reasonable dealer would have kept two crystals back in hand, one for myself and the other for the one that was broken, but he sold them without a thought, even after I pointed out that I was waiting for a replacement crystal and he had one on eBay at the time.
Kerr Avon
Master Member
No, the exact cost breakdown wasn't explained that I recall. But again, all it takes to have a package scanned into the system is to hand it to the PO and have them scan it in. Any time I've dropped off a package at the PO I've had it scanned. It doesn't require any great effort on a shippers part to have this done.
I still would like to know at this point if Hydin just left the package on his doorstep for the PO to pickup instead of actually handing it over. That's a significant difference than dropping it off at the PO, and one even he has to admit indicates he doesn't know if it was picked up or not.
I still would like to know at this point if Hydin just left the package on his doorstep for the PO to pickup instead of actually handing it over. That's a significant difference than dropping it off at the PO, and one even he has to admit indicates he doesn't know if it was picked up or not.
Jedirick
Sr Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(teecrooz @ Mar 9 2007, 07:27 PM) [snapback]1436155[/snapback]</div>
That was done with the first thread in the JY. Kerr provided additional information in this thread. It's been permitted to stand.
A further clarification:
The staff is monitoring this thread and determining what if any action we should take REGARDING THE THREAD. Something we do with any thread showing potential to turn into a fireworks display.
Suspending JY privileges for one lost package out of 100, would be a ridiculous as suspending Kerr's JY access for failure to insure the package.
Suspending JY privileges of a member is used when there is indications of fraud or further investigation is needed to evaluate whether there is fraud. It's not to punish the seller but to prevent any other member from being victimized.
That was done with the first thread in the JY. Kerr provided additional information in this thread. It's been permitted to stand.
A further clarification:
The staff is monitoring this thread and determining what if any action we should take REGARDING THE THREAD. Something we do with any thread showing potential to turn into a fireworks display.
Suspending JY privileges for one lost package out of 100, would be a ridiculous as suspending Kerr's JY access for failure to insure the package.
Suspending JY privileges of a member is used when there is indications of fraud or further investigation is needed to evaluate whether there is fraud. It's not to punish the seller but to prevent any other member from being victimized.
Roger Ramjet
Sr Member
I ship USPS exclusively and have home pickup. I would say conservatively I have shipped 125 packages from my home using USPS pickup, all were scanned (Priority Mail with Printed Label) by the carrier at the time of pickup (And we have a rural carrier where I live) I never had any problems with any of them.
The only thing that bugs me about USPS is that you cannot track your package minute to minute like with the other carriers, but as far as delivery, I have never had a glitch.
The only thing that bugs me about USPS is that you cannot track your package minute to minute like with the other carriers, but as far as delivery, I have never had a glitch.
Lord Abaddon
Sr Member
My wife uses home pickup because we only have one car and I usually work the hours the post office is open. We have found that the packages are never scanned at the local village post office but rather at one of two distribution centers. One in a NW suburb of Chicago never scans them, one north of Chicago always does.
Boba Debt
Master Member
Save your breath Lord A
A 1000 people could tell Kerr that not all Post Offices scan packages at the counter and he wouldn't hear them.
As for the Door Step vs. Counter Drop Off issue.
Once again, not everyone live in a high crime area.
I have accidentally left both of our garage doors open and my shop lights on over night and not a single thing was disturbed, and I have over 20k in tools just sitting there.
Hydin has stated he is not going to respond in this thread anymore so asking him a question in it will serve no purpose.
However, I would like to read the full story from the RPFs point of view. Is there a thread still around that I can read?
Were there any PMs or emails that add to the discussion that were not made public?
A 1000 people could tell Kerr that not all Post Offices scan packages at the counter and he wouldn't hear them.
As for the Door Step vs. Counter Drop Off issue.
Once again, not everyone live in a high crime area.
I have accidentally left both of our garage doors open and my shop lights on over night and not a single thing was disturbed, and I have over 20k in tools just sitting there.
Hydin has stated he is not going to respond in this thread anymore so asking him a question in it will serve no purpose.
However, I would like to read the full story from the RPFs point of view. Is there a thread still around that I can read?
Were there any PMs or emails that add to the discussion that were not made public?
Cenobyte
Sr Member
Part of the issue is that if it was truly sent.
A few yesrs ago, I did a trade with him for this very inexpensive red crystal for a project I was working on.
I sent him a cmputer part he was needing.
He acknowleged he received my item, but I did not receive his.
After 3 attempts (He claimed that the mail lost the first 2) I finally received it months later.
This is a known issue with him and then basicaly telling a customer "oh well"
A few yesrs ago, I did a trade with him for this very inexpensive red crystal for a project I was working on.
I sent him a cmputer part he was needing.
He acknowleged he received my item, but I did not receive his.
After 3 attempts (He claimed that the mail lost the first 2) I finally received it months later.
This is a known issue with him and then basicaly telling a customer "oh well"
YenChih Lin
Master Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boba Debt @ Mar 11 2007, 01:46 PM) [snapback]1437244[/snapback]</div>
well, besides the closed Superman payment/sign up thread and the Head Count Thread which you can follow the events of the superman crystal, these are the only one left - the other thread concerned the prototype was removed, when a ex-member tried to copy it, since you can access it from the web.
There were PM between me and Chris, but nothing directly relevant to Kerr's case - just the updates on what the PO's told Chris and what actions he took. If you like to know more, PM me.
well, besides the closed Superman payment/sign up thread and the Head Count Thread which you can follow the events of the superman crystal, these are the only one left - the other thread concerned the prototype was removed, when a ex-member tried to copy it, since you can access it from the web.
There were PM between me and Chris, but nothing directly relevant to Kerr's case - just the updates on what the PO's told Chris and what actions he took. If you like to know more, PM me.
Kerr Avon
Master Member
Well one decision I have definately come to on this issue is I will no longer take part in these "runs" that ask for money up front without delivery within the Paypal/Credit Card fraud period after payment. I'm done trusting anyone to deliver on a product that will not even ship prior to the expiration of Paypal transfers or Credit Card payments. If anyone wants my business in the future, they'll have to have product in hand or ship prior to both expirations.
Kerr Avon
Master Member
As I have already said, I always insure my shipments, and have 100% satisfaction on sales and delivery. I have expected it of others, though now apparently have to demand it since some people can't be trusted to keep a bargain. The point is, I can keep my credit card company's fraud division on my side if I don't trust people.
Sad, but it seems the thing a person has to do to protect themself.
Sad, but it seems the thing a person has to do to protect themself.
Boba Debt
Master Member
Well I just read this entire thread:
Superman payment/sign up thread
Kerr, I have to say that your a bigger jerk then I thought.
I will definitely avoid selling you anything
Superman payment/sign up thread
Kerr, I have to say that your a bigger jerk then I thought.
I will definitely avoid selling you anything
exoray
Master Member
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hydin @ Mar 9 2007, 04:55 PM) [snapback]1436080[/snapback]</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hydin @ Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:04 pm)</div>
At cost or profit run? I believe this is the point atacpdx was making, this was a profit run, be it possibly small...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hydin @ Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:04 pm)</div>
At cost or profit run? I believe this is the point atacpdx was making, this was a profit run, be it possibly small...
Darth Kahnt
Sr Member
The staff have reviewed this situation and have come to the following resolution:
I am making this post at approximately 10:45pm Eastern Standard Time on March 11, 2007. Please make note of this.
Both this thread and the thread started by Hydlin will be closed in 24 hours if there is no resolution.
Once they are closed no more threads will be permitted on this topic. Three threads devoted to this topic have allowed both members to vent, present their sides, hear multitudes of opinions and yet no resolution is forth coming.
Hydin and Kerr can take this to email or telephone but the opportunity to resolve this by forum will end in 24 hours from now.
Thanks for your understanding. Any questions please feel free to contact myself or any member of the staff.
Darth Kahnt
RPF Staff
I am making this post at approximately 10:45pm Eastern Standard Time on March 11, 2007. Please make note of this.
Both this thread and the thread started by Hydlin will be closed in 24 hours if there is no resolution.
Once they are closed no more threads will be permitted on this topic. Three threads devoted to this topic have allowed both members to vent, present their sides, hear multitudes of opinions and yet no resolution is forth coming.
Hydin and Kerr can take this to email or telephone but the opportunity to resolve this by forum will end in 24 hours from now.
Thanks for your understanding. Any questions please feel free to contact myself or any member of the staff.
Darth Kahnt
RPF Staff
- Status
