Hydin, the Post Office, and a Missing Crystal

[Kerr Avon]

I thought that some people would be interested to hear some information I gathered from the post office this week regarding a crystal I purchased from Hydin late last year and never received.

As it turns out, there is no proof that a package was shipped to me. While Hydin did speak to a floor manager, as it turns out she misrepresented some facts. The fact is that a label was generated online, but at no time did any post office scan the package that this label was supposed to be put on. Normally, a post office would scan the package as they receive it if it was dropped off by a person and then it would be picked up by the system on the tracking information. The label that Hydin generated shows no evidence of being used. While the manager had to state he could not prove that a package was never shipped, nor could it be proven a package was ever shipped. He also indicated that if Hydin did not offer insurance, that he believed that Hydin would be the person responsible if the package went missing. Hydin never did offer insurance, nor did he indicate there was no insurance on packages.

Below is a scan of a letter I had the Post Office Station manager type up for me documenting all of this. My address and his number have been removed.

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As Hydin requested his sale thread be closed and it was closed at his request, I have decided to start my own thread.

 

[Birdie]

Not taking sides or anything, Chris should definiteley replace it, but this line

He also indicated that if Hydin did not offer insurance, that he believed that Hydin would be the person responsible if the package went missing[/b]

is pretty meaningless. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no law stating that a sender is in any way legally responsible after the package is sent. It's really an honor (and good busniness issue).

I do agree with Chris that if a flat shipping charge is stated, it is up to the buyer to inquire if insurance is included. I only iautomatically insure items if the item is a high (over $100) value or if specifically requested. Having said that I ALWAYS obtain proof of shipping from the Post Office.

 

[franz bolo]

I DO NOT HAVE TO OFFER YOU A REFUND OR A CRYSTAL. i got it, i packed it, i shipped it, and if its not there ITS NOT MY FRIGGIN PROBLEM.
-Hydin[/b]

no refund, no crystal. you bought it, not my fault it wasnt insured, not my fault its gone, and even if you cannot seem to grasp that, it doesnt change anything.
-Hydin[/b]

This is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. If your a seller, you need to do everything in your power to ensure the package gets there.

I will never buy anything from Hydin nor will I ever sell him anything. His attitude is disgusting and immature.

FB

 

[Jedirick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Birdie @ Mar 8 2007, 10:45 PM) [snapback]1435376[/snapback]</div>

Not taking sides or anything, Chris should definiteley replace it, but this line

He also indicated that if Hydin did not offer insurance, that he believed that Hydin would be the person responsible if the package went missing[/b]

is pretty meaningless. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no law stating that a sender is in any way legally responsible after the package is sent. It's really an honor (and good busniness issue).

I do agree with Chris that if a flat shipping charge is stated, it is up to the buyer to inquire if insurance is included. I only iautomatically insure items if the item is a high (over $100) value or if specifically requested. Having said that I ALWAYS obtain proof of shipping from the Post Office.
[/b]

Agreed.

How come the guy didn't put that in the letter?

 

[Kerr Avon]

To be clear, the manager didn't say that Hydin had a legal responsibility to do so, but as a business person it was a poor choice on his part and it should be his responsibility to replace or refund it. Sadly, Hydin has made great effort to continue to delay any replacement, going as far as to sell off all spares he had prior to agreeing to replace the crystal, and then only offering a refund at less than half of what I paid, or making me wait months longer for a replacement that may or may not ever be made.

 

[hydin]

I guess I will be making another call to the TN post office. as I haven't gotten my letters yet.

From the calls to my post office, and kerrs, and the postal inspectors of both areas, everyone who has done any research has said "it's lost somewhere, file a missing package/mail theft claim" (which I did for both kerr and yen's crystals).

Reading the letter, all it says is somehow, during the christmas rush, a package didn't get scanned. This is not surprising to me, nor was it surprising to any of the PO employees I talked to when they researched the tracking # at both his and my own PO, plus the postal inspectors of both areas.

Also, for those keeping score, after losing my temper, I did offer up 3 "solutions" which all got shot down. I am still going to order a new clear crystal, and when it comes in I will get shipping figured out for him with insurance, and if he pays the shipping, its his. Same deal I made with Yen, and no complaints from him yet. I have told this to multiple people since I had the thread locked down, because all this back and forth was accomplishing nothing.

I've made my decision on how to handle things, and that's all there is to it.

My own philosophy was quoted back to me by a postal inspector last week, with "as long as something is shipped via the USPS mailing service, insurance is always an option". When I shop on ebay, when I buy something from a website business, anywhere, insurance is optional. I know this as its pretty common sense. When in doubt or when something costs more than 20$, I get insurance. Not everyone wants to pay the extra, hence it being optional.

I had several people request insurance, and they got it. I had several people just pay the regular shipping. Some people requested fedex, or a fast UPS. They got it. Out of all the boxes that got shipped, 2 went missing. It sucks for those 2 guys, but I am making it up to them.

Franz - I know I lost my temper in the other thread, and haven't edited the responses out, but neither kerr nor I really acted all that mature in the thread (or off it, actually). If you don't want to buy from me, thats ok too. I haven't twisted anyones arm to have them buy from me, and never will.

The basic, harsh truth is that the package didn't get scanned and didn't get delivered. My responsibility with it is over once I set the package out to get picked up or I pass it to a postal employee at the PO. Everyone, including multiple postal employees have told me this. It isn't an ego trip, its just simply the truth. Anything I do after that package leaves my hands is optional. I chose quick solutions, and he shot em down. I chose my own solution after that, and that is what I am sticking with.

For those wonder "WTF?" - this may come as a surprise but I am not a business, I don't do this for a living, and to expect a refund on an at-cost project (to me and many others) is unheard of if the buyer didn't request insurance. Had there been insurance, this would have been solved a long time ago.

Neither one of us covered ourselves with glory, but I took great offense to the idea that I was a thief, and that colored quite a few of my replies and posts. Sorry if they offended anyone.

On a side note, I have carried on a few conversations with Yen Chih over this exact same problem the entire time, via email and PM's, and so far nothing but smooth sailing. It's amazing how far that difference in attitude goes in figuring out a solution.

Chris

 

[robstyle]

Just an FYI,
you may be surprised at the amount of packages that never get scanned when left to the USPS. Its not as much a joke as USPS tracking or insurance but its in the same league.

 

[juno]

I just don't understand how one man can have so many problems with the postal service?

I’ve have sat quietly (mostly) by and watched this story unfold. I have heard from others that they have had shipping problems with Hydin.

Here is what happened to me. Hydin started a Pay-it-forward thread in the junkyard. The concept was you were to answer three questions, and if correct, the question-poster would send you a prize. I answered Hydin’s questions, and my questions were answered.

I sent him my address, and received a PM that it had been shipped. I waited a while, didn’t receive it, PMed him again, and he told me it shipped.

More time went by I finally remembered I hadn’t received Hydin’s package, and asked him about it. His response:

November 2, 2006:

ill dig through my receipts and see what happened. i have a few spare pieces (kinda bulk did the extra quartz pieces i have) in case this one is MIA too.

let me do some digging. i have my share of problems with the mail but rarely is it ever more than 1 problem with any person getting their box from me.

chris
[/b]

I told him that I had never lost anything through the post office. His response
November 3, 2006:

:$

ok... feel like a retard on this one. it didn't go out. i had it boxed up and apparently it managed to get hidden when i was cleaning. I am going to rebox it and lob in a few freebies for the trouble (already had a surprise in there, now ya get 2. its like twice as cool as a crackerjack box )
[/b]

I finally received the PRIORITY MAIL package on November 12 (remember that Priority Mail is supposed to be 2-3 days).

 

[Ghadrack]

And as another uninvolved party....

I had a great transaction wit Hydin, I got exactly what I was offered in his at-cost project.

Personally, since you are projecting to the peanut gallery, I'd wait and see if he gets you the replacement that he has discussed above. Who is to say that you aren't the bad guy here for all we know you got crystal and are now trying to extort your money back from him, I mean the post office does not have the world's greatest record on package tracking. That scenario makes about as much sense as Hydin trying to ssteal from you when he had about 100 other smooth transactions in the run.

Seems to me, again, since you started this thread, I would assume to seek the opinions and guidance from other members, not just to flame another board member, we have two members adamant that they did nothing wrong, you want something that he isn't willing to do, refund your money, because Hydin is sure he shipped your package. He is offering a replacement but you have to wait until it's manufactured and shipped here, but you want him to send your money back now.

Take it to small claims court if you can't work it out, these sorts of threads just turn into flame fests and make you both look bad. Do you really see anything constructive happening here? Really?

P.S. In the prop forum?

 

[vaderdarth]

Hydin, I feel for ya buddy, really I do. But the bottom line is this: Kerr paid you for an item, which you've confirmed. He paid you for shipping which you've confirmed. He did not receive the item which everybody has confirmed including the US Postal Service.

You have to do one or the other, no exceptions:

1. Send the item the guy paid you for already (no extra shipping)

2. Send the money back he paid (not a penny less than he paid you including shipping)

If you don't choose one of these, he needs to simply throw his hands up and claim mail fraud and let the United States Government deal with you. It's pretty simple. He met his end of the transaction, but you have not.

If you were naiive enough not to insure the item and have zero proof to back up your claims, the responsibility falls onto you alone.

If on the other hand, your buyer asks you not so insure something because it will cause them to have to pay a huge amount in their own country when the package arrives...and you have the email where they made that request...........then they get to share in the cost of the replacement. New shipping costs or whatever.

It's a freaking crystal..........it's not a $3000 item..........just deal with it and get this monkey off your back. Sometimes you cut your losses and just lose some money in order to salvage your reputation. You can make the money back on a future transaction. You can't make your reputation back once you get labelled as a con artist.

I'm not judging you Hydin, I'm just saying that from everything you've posted in this thread, you are the responsible party here. You gotta make it right and not ask for another penny from your buyer for this item.

Just my opinion. And Hydin, whatever you do, pay the little extra for insurance this time. Insurance doesn't cover your buyer, it covers you. Don't give them the option if you stand to lose money. I learned this the hard way. Again, sometimes you just take one for the team. Your reputation here is worth alot more than a couple crystals.

Dave

 

[SFPROPS]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vaderdarth @ Mar 9 2007, 08:50 AM) [snapback]1435616[/snapback]</div>

If you were naiive enough not to insure the item and have zero proof to back up your claims, the responsibility falls onto you alone.

If on the other hand, your buyer asks you not so insure something because it will cause them to have to pay a huge amount in their own country when the package arrives...and you have the email where they made that request...........then they get to share in the cost of the replacement. New shipping costs or whatever.[/b]

This is the way I always took the vedor/buyer relationship to be. You buy something from Amazon.com that never shows up, and they don't have any evidence that it ever shipped and was delivered? They send you another one. They don't depend on you to purchase insurance - insurance is protection for the shipper, not the buyer. When you sell something "as is", you note it. When you ship something without insurance that you're not going to stand behind it's delivery, you state that insurance is mandatory or that you can't insure delivery. Even then, I believe that the shipper is the one who has to file for the insurance claim.

This is on top of the fact that I've heard many people having problem with Hydin not sending stuff to people on deals when he says he will. Not necessarily because he wants to screw him over, but due to poor organization. Tiffany's example is an illustration on how he could BELIEVE he sent something out, but not do it and have all the evidence he currently has in the Kerr Avon case.

Chris - do the right thing. Refund or send another. I don't think that anyone thinks you are lying about your belief that it was shipped, and I certainly don't think anyone thinks that Kerr is lying either. That leaves the burden of proof on you since he paid, and there never was a delivery and no working tracking number. The only way members here have to ensure that other members do the right thing is peer pressure. I think that this thread is a healthy dose.

 

[exoray]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(robstyle @ Mar 9 2007, 12:10 AM) [snapback]1435464[/snapback]</div>

Just an FYI,
you may be surprised at the amount of packages that never get scanned when left to the USPS. Its not as much a joke as USPS tracking or insurance but its in the same league.
[/b]

I will confirm that unless you as the shipper don't request a delivery/drop off receipt when you drop packages off then in many cases they never scanned at that point... And IMO this is the shippers responsibility to get this receipt, so that they can prove shipment... Without this scan the only proof the shipper has is that they purchased postage and a delivery confirmation number, not that that the item actually shipped... And this is the case here...

To try and pass off the lack of shipping proof on the buyer not purchasing insurance, IMO is bad form when the shipper can't prove the item shipped... I can only expect that even if the buyer had purchased insurance that the PO without any record of the package being dropped off by the shipper, would make getting paid extremely hard...

On a side note, I have never had a package avoid the tracking system completely they have always been scanned at some point and enter the tracking system...

 

[Chingon]

The only time the USPS ever lost a package of mine was back shortly after 9/11. Jedi135 had shipped out a brand new Ki Adi Mundi lightsaber to me and after waiting nearly a month it never arrived. He shipped out a second saber with Delivery Confirmation without even batting an eye. If even someone like Tim P could do that for a $200+ lightsaber then surely something can be done about this crystal. I don't see why it has to be this way.

I've shipped out many a package in my time here at the RPF and I always make sure to cover myself in one way or another. Like someone else said, I don't do it to protect the buyer, I do it to protect me. If I ship via USPS, I always add DC and get a receipt. If I ship UPS or FedEx, then I know there'll be a tracking number and again, a receipt.

Personally, since it seems all but 2 of these crystals got to their intended recepients, its unlikely hydin purposely didn't ship them out. So, I don't see how kerr trying to paint hydin as a thief is very accurate or helpful. Then, it also seems if hydin really wanted this to end that he'd just do whatever to get kerr to just shut up already. I've seen kerr go from thread to thread posting about his problem. Frankly, its getting pretty old. Hydin, just do whatever you have to do to get this solved. You're only hurting yourself at this point.

 

[Simmon M]

I work for an accounting firm and we have had our fair share of problems with the USPS tracking system.

We advise all clients to send out their tax returns certified mail/return receipt. When we send returns out on the clients behalf we log in the certified receipt number and pdf the actual certfied receipt (with postal date stamp) and the return receipt once it gets back to us confirming delivery.

There are instances when we have to confirm for the client that their return has been sent out (usually to dispute penalty). We discovered that when we used the USPS e-certified system there were times when while trying to track the package no shipping information appeared on the USPS website but we knew that the return had gone out because we had the actual return receipt card proving delivery.

Very frustrating.

We've been told by our postal rep that the physical certified receipt that has been date stamped at the post office protects us. The problem is that when we e-ship we don't get a physical receipt - we rely on what info the USPS website provides. As a result we've had to abandon the entire e-certified system (and we leased equipment and software mind you). So don't think that everything you send gets scanned by the Post Office and don't be conned into thinking that their website is a reliable tracking tool - it's not.

 

[Tatooine_Todd]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(robstyle @ Mar 9 2007, 06:10 AM) [snapback]1435464[/snapback]</div>

Just an FYI,
you may be surprised at the amount of packages that never get scanned when left to the USPS. Its not as much a joke as USPS tracking or insurance but its in the same league.
[/b]

This is exactly correct. I have had more then a few packages not scanned, but delivered. In talking with the Post Office, I was told it is not uncommon for a packeage to not be scanned.

 

[CeSquared]

This is how I treat situations like this...

I always back up my sales. If an item is not received. I'll replace it or issue a refund, at my cost. I've lost plenty having to replace items or issue refunds. I feel to maintain my good name as a seller, it is worth it.

I'd rather have the repeat business in the future than burn any bridges.

 

[ortiz34]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Birdie @ Mar 8 2007, 10:45 PM) [snapback]1435376[/snapback]</div>

Not taking sides or anything, Chris should definiteley replace it, but this line

He also indicated that if Hydin did not offer insurance, that he believed that Hydin would be the person responsible if the package went missing[/b]

is pretty meaningless. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no law stating that a sender is in any way legally responsible after the package is sent. It's really an honor (and good busniness issue).

I do agree with Chris that if a flat shipping charge is stated, it is up to the buyer to inquire if insurance is included. I only iautomatically insure items if the item is a high (over $100) value or if specifically requested. Having said that I ALWAYS obtain proof of shipping from the Post Office.
[/b]

I dont agree with that. Once I pay its the sellers responsibility that they can verify when item was shipped, and that it arrives safely-as best as they can. Arriving safely to me means insurance. Whats to say item wasnt broken when you put it in the box? If item was insured both buyer and seller are covered. To me 'shipping' implies insurance and 'confirmation' that seller ships, and buyer receives. Especially if the item only costs say $5 to ship, but im charged $10-.

 

[androidandy]

The basic, harsh truth is that the package didn't get scanned and didn't get delivered. My responsibility with it is over once I set the package out to get picked up or I pass it to a postal employee at the PO. Everyone, including multiple postal employees have told me this. It isn't an ego trip, its just simply the truth. Anything I do after that package leaves my hands is optional. I chose quick solutions, and he shot em down. I chose my own solution after that, and that is what I am sticking with.
[/b]

I am just curious, are you in any way implying that you just set the package out on your doorstep to be picked up?

 

[hyperdyne]

Kerr, I hope you get this resolved.

I had a customer in Germany recently who never received their package. It was lost in the ether, and the USPS had no clue (they told me it was delivered to the UK). :confused

I ended up replacing the package and sending it fedex tracked next time. I ate the entire cost since it was my responsibility, as the shipper, to get him the product he paid for. That is just a fact of business.

*BTW, this thread title reminds me of some old Hardy boys novel. :lol

 

[atacpdx]

Let me say 1st, as Kerr will attest, he and I are not fans of each other...

That said...Hydin you are wrong.... M

My ad agency ships almost 20-40 boxes a day with USPS as part of a fulfillment program. We generate every label w/postage ourselves via the web. The only time they ever arrive without being scanned is when they are overnights and going short distance. They then tend to arrive before the system gets updated. However if you go back and look 2-3 days later...the system shows the tracking...

You have Zero proof you shipped. You owe both Kerr and the other guy replacements entirely at your cost. Just because the other guy hasn't complained is not proof you are right. It is merely proof he is either naive or is so worried about angering you and getting nothing that he is willing to take the hit.

Forget insurance. If I buy something online with regular shipping and it never arrives and the selling company has no proof they shipped, they replace it at their cost. They then do battle with the P.O. if they actually shipped.

Your 3 offers are frankly offensive and I hope this community doesn't tolerate them. In asking around, "shipping" seems to be a common problem with you. It has escaped public attention up to know because people like Juno and others have been kind. I applaud Kerr for bringing this out in the open. Maybe it will end this chain of people who seem to get caught in your USPS Bermuda Triangle.

Mods, Do the right thing and suspend Hydin's JY rights until he fixes this.

Good luck Kerr.