Emmiter Ideas

Discussion in 'Replica Props' started by franz bolo, Jan 5, 2006.

  1. franz bolo

    franz bolo Sr Member

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    So if you did have an original balance pipe, how would you attach it to the grenade?

    The original BP was hollow straight through, while the replicas had a built in base so it could attach to the grenade.

    The only thing I could come up with is using a dowel. you would have to tap it in so it would pressure fit, then screw attach it to the rod.

    Any other ideas? The original makers faced the same problem and I wonder how they did it.

    FB
     
  2. Sporak

    Sporak Sr Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    I wrapped my grenade attachment (brass part) with some aluminum tape and press fit the balance pipe on...

    The BP I have is probably a little smaller inside, I don't know really...

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    Custom-turned reflector piece is, I think, the best solution :D:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. franz bolo

    franz bolo Sr Member

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    Would it pressure fit inside the BP?

    Are you going to make these?

    FB
     
  5. Sporak

    Sporak Sr Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    Hey, That's a great idea...
    Can't wait ;)

     
  6. franz bolo

    franz bolo Sr Member

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    Sporak, where did you get that grenade?

    The brass on it looks great.. Is that naturally weathered?

    FB
     
  7. Sporak

    Sporak Sr Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    Thanks FB...it's a real grenade...
    I added just a touch of brass black to the stem and windvane dabbing it and wiping almost imidiately...then I wore it down and softened it with my hand...I just wanted it dark, not black.The yellowie, upper neck is natural...
    ...and if you just get your hands a little greasy and handle the brass, you'l see a nice tarnish happen in a week or so...maybe a little longer...just keep handling it.

    The body of the grenade was painted so I used a wire wheel to clean it off...then I've just let it age...

    Just a tip...don't be afraid to handle your saber...take it down and play with it...it'll get that worn look naturally...if you keep it on a stand or just up on a shelf, it'll stay pretty forever...but what's the fun in that ;)
     
  8. Gytheran

    Gytheran Sr Member

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    If I were going for complete accuracy? Some epoxy or solder and reproduce the Chronicles look.
     
  9. franz bolo

    franz bolo Sr Member

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    There's a big gap on an original Balance Pipe and the grenade stem though.

    You would have to make some sort of adapter and then glue or solder it.

    Serafino's idea is really nice.

    FB
     
  10. Howard

    Howard Sr Member

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    I'm so glad this has come up again.
    I mentioned this to KD only yesterday.
    Andres, be prepared for a lengthy pm.

    Howard.
     
  11. Prometheus

    Prometheus Well-Known Member

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    So any more information regarding this reflector piece?
    Andres? :)
     
  12. Sporak

    Sporak Sr Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    Hey, I'll second that ;)
     
  13. Darth Lars

    Darth Lars Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Escutcheon? ;)

    ..

    No, seriously... how did that theory start? I don't remember and the original pre-discovery research threads have fallen off the board.
    (btw, on a Star Wars-board where I am moderator we say that expired posts were eaten by "Roger The Rancor" :D )
     
  14. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    I didn't pay much attenion to the ‘escutcheon’ thread (if that's the one you mean) as I thought it was way off base. I forgot who first floated it.

    Sporak and Prometheus--As for the reflector/adaptor, I expect to include it with the emitter run, and I plan to make a few extras for the very few who have real emitters. :)
     
  15. obee1

    obee1 New Member

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    just what i was hoping to hear. i can't wait.


    .....BTW....how many is that now?
     
  16. Sporak

    Sporak Sr Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    * , you're good.
    :)


     
  17. Prometheus

    Prometheus Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear that.
    BTW, how do you plan to attach the reflector piece to the grenade stem? Will it be threaded exactly to the treading size of the stem? Or do we need a threaded rod to run it across the entire saber internally?
     
  18. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    The goal is to leave the hole in the stem free to be 'seen into', and just have the reflector piece fit onto the outside of the stem.

    It's a bit of a sticky issue, since a lot of people don't want to deal with glue, etc., but I have several ideas working out of which a suitably flexible solution will arise. :)
     
  19. franz bolo

    franz bolo Sr Member

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    3
     
  20. ATL Kenobi

    ATL Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    The following is how I attached the interconnector to the No.3 on my ANH OWK saber prop.
    [​IMG]

    Note- IÂ’m showing a RomanÂ’s Empire EL ready emitter which is what I had at the time, but oddly enough, the hole is the exact same size as the real deal, slightly larger than an inch.

    In addition to the No3 Mk1, and Derwent Interconnector, I used two steel flat washers (stainless steel might look better) with an outside diameter of 1 inch, and an inside diameter of 3/8 inch (a common size). These can be found at Home Depot, Lowes, or Ace Hardware. Instead of using the typical 3/8-16 threaded rod, I used threaded lamp tubing used for making light fixtures. I like the look of the hole as seen from the emitter end, and using this tubing allows for the use of much smaller nuts. This tubing is usually referred to as 1/8 IP and is little larger than 3/8”. Also found at the above stores in the lamp department. I filed the end of mine down just a little bit so it slides easily inside the No3, but a little filing inside the No3 also works (if needed).

    Also I used a lamp hex nut, an additional washer shown already on the tubing, and a round decorative lamp nut that will be visible when the emitter is attached. The optional reflector I used was an aluminum stamping from the stem of the basket from an old coffee percolator. IIRC Serafino has posted pictures and commented that there may have been a reflector of some sort on the original prop. I like the way it looks.

    Also needed, a rubber washer or O-ring that fits snuggly inside the emitter. See second picture.
    [​IMG]

    Note that the rubber washer (in this case) is slightly deformed when place inside the emitter. Selections of rubber washers or O-rings can usually be found in the hardware or plumbing sections at the above listed stores.

    Pass the tubing through the No3 so it sticks out past the end about 3/8”. Slide one washer over the tubing and against the No3.


    Slide the emitter with rubber washer or O-ring on next. Make sure itÂ’s fairly straight and positioned correctly relative to the vane. (Refer to some of the old pictures of the original)
    [​IMG]



    And then from the end, slide on the second flat washer, the optional reflector, and thread the decorative nut onto the tubing until it's flush with the end.
    [​IMG]

    Without the emitter, it would look something like this.
    [​IMG]


    Using the appropriate size boxed end wrench, tighten the hex lamp nut, thereby compressing the rubber washer or O-ring against the inside of the emitter.
    [​IMG]

    Note- This procedure worked well with the original No.3, and although I used lamp tubing to put my Roman's saber together, I'd almost have to recommend against it. Roman's parts are drilled to 3/8" (.375) and are designed to be put together with 3/8-16 threaded rod. The tubing is .391 (mine was), so I had to drill out the replica No.3. Drilling aluminum isn't difficult, but for a novice, drilling brass can be a harrowing experience. Brass will grab a hold of a drill bit, and in my case, threw my vise across my shop :$ . I finished making the hole bigger using a rat tail file.
     
  21. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    Great work again ATL.

    Is the support for the emitter mostly via the rubber washer?
     
  22. franz bolo

    franz bolo Sr Member

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    Great job..

    I'm glad to see this thread not disappearing..

    FB
     
  23. ATL Kenobi

    ATL Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(Serafino @ Jul 27 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]1289264[/snapback]</div>
    Serafino,
    Thanks.
    I think that the rubber washer/O-ring does most of the gripping, and the alignment is maintained by the metal washers. Actually, more than 2 metal washers could be used for more support.

    ATL Kenobi
    Mike D.
     
  24. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    Thanks Mike. I think the o-ring idea has a lot of promise. ;)
     
  25. JunkSabers1138

    JunkSabers1138 Sr Member

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    WOW. Good job. Could this be how the real prop was assembled? Are there any good leads?
     
  26. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    The leads consist of the 'globs' at the top of the grenade stem just inside the balance pipe--solder or epoxy, take your pick--and the apparent reflective 'something' which can be seen deep inside the balance pipe in some scenes, which was discussed in detail around a year ago. That discussion (revolving around my photographic experiments with examples I machined or modified) culminated in the 'reflector' shape and location I posted at the beginning of this thread (not the whole 'adapter' shape). That's about it.

    But my speculation is that the 'reflector' is so deep in there that there's not much room for epoxy to create a strong bond to the grenade stem, so I think it's very likely that solder was used at least for the bond to the stem.

    Partway through production the top of the stem was cleaned and shows bright brass in the Cantina sequence and post-production photos--did the saber fall apart from being dropped, and was it then repaired in a way that required the stem to be cleaned to bright brass? What's the more likely candidate in that case, solder or epoxy?
     
  27. Killdozer

    Killdozer Active Member

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    Both work best on bare metal, in my experience. However, epoxy is more likely to be in use to cover a larger area, I would think.

    There's also the possibility (however remote) of two grenades in use. There's something about the officialpix grenade... the resolution is poor, but it looks so pitted in comparison to the clean, sharp-edged pineapple in the chronicles/mechanismo photos. More like the "prototype" grenade, IMO.

    KD
     
  28. Howard

    Howard Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(Killdozer @ Jul 31 2006, 01:44 PM) [snapback]1291124[/snapback]</div>
    I agree.
    Pics to follow when I get a freeee moment or five.

    Oh - and 2000 posts.

    :D

    Howard.
     
  29. JunkSabers1138

    JunkSabers1138 Sr Member

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    I agree with two sabers in use as well.

    And congradulations Howard on your 2,000 post milestone.
     
  30. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(JunkSabers1138 @ Jul 31 2006, 12:27 PM) [snapback]1291346[/snapback]</div>
    That would be a break in the chain of argument for notches. :angel

    I'm looking forward to some working-out of this issue. The apparent odd features of the OfficialPix grenade don't resolve into anything sensible so it's hard to make them into an argument for anything, but on the other hand I haven't yet been able to match wear features between that saber and the Chronicles pics.

    FWIW Killdozer I think one can re-glue a failed epoxy joint without significant cleanup of overpaint, whereas re-doing a solder joint would require more cleanup.
     
  31. ATL Kenobi

    ATL Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(Serafino @ Jul 31 2006, 01:25 AM) [snapback]1291046[/snapback]</div>
    [​IMG]
    Serafino,
    I think it's solder. The picture shows 3 solder blobs on a stainless steel washer (The brown stuff is flux). As you know, unless certain metals (aluminum, stainless, inconel ;) ) are properly prepared, solder just won't stick to it, and will tend to just ball up and form blobs. After the picture was taken, I intentionally dropped the washer on a hard surface, and all 3 blobs popped right off.

    As mentioned, the stem was cleaned, which is a necessary step for a good solder connection, and brass takes solder very well. I suspect that the repair folks had/used some kind of flat washer, brass or steel, as an interface between the No.3 and the interconnector. The washer probably soldered easily to the neck. To solder the interconnector to the (theoretical) washer, they would have applied a large soldering iron to the outside of the inner sleeve and then applied the solder to the washer/interconnector joint. I believe this would have left the blobs seen in the mechanismo picture. I'm thinking that all that was holding the interconnector to the prop was the flux.

    IMHO :)



    OK-slightly off topic. Perhaps this is something that's been discussed before, but, in this picture, is the wind vane not screwed all the way on?

    ATL Kenobi
     
  32. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>(ATL Kenobi @ Jul 31 2006, 06:29 PM) [snapback]1291565[/snapback]</div>
    Quite right. :) It varies in position in different shots. Since it is reasonable to assume it would not have been left to spin around and rattle, it would be interesting to track the changes in its position through the various pictures, as that may cast an interesting light on the other changes.

    About the 'balling up' effect. This is one of the ambiguous aspects of the 'blobs'--people who know how solder works don't generally try to use it as a gap-filler, and it almost looks like whatever was used here was used as a gap-filler.

    We haven't mentioned brazing, which is if anything an even stronger candidate.
     
  33. Killdozer

    Killdozer Active Member

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    Just examining some parts this morning, and looking at the Death Star screencaps...

    Seems to me that the threaded portion of the booster's "ring of holes" part would fit inside the balance pipe... if the threading itself was filed down.

    Furthermore, I think there may be evidence in the 3/4 Chronicles photo of a lip much like the end face of the booster 2nd part. The screencaps aren't sufficiently clear to be able to tell, although the bright chrome-y reflection is what got me thinking.

    If everything was held together with a dowel, there would be pressure-fit points at the pommel, the booster (if the nut and part of the threading was left intact), the grenade stem and at the balance pipe.

    Naturally, this would mean destroying a booster and preventing further use by Bapty-- something it's understood happened. Maybe it was stripped already. We must also consider-- what would be easier? A custom machined piece, or something (already ruined?) in a box?

    KD

    edit: The C/M photo, which makes the connection look rounded (ie, soldered), also made it look like the pommel/booster connection was a soft curve...
     
  34. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    KD I also wondered about the plated 'cone' shapes in the booster proper (the 'ring of holes' piece is the actual booster, FWIW). I think the cone in the threaded end is too deep and narrow to be the 'reflector' in the prop emitter, my tests with various shapes indicated that a full-width reflector 'cone' with a shallower angle is most likely. I'll dig up my photos to illustrate this later today.

    Also, the 'nut' end of the 'ring of holes/booster' piece doesn't make for an easy fit to a grenade stem, so it seems like there would be a lot of work involved in making that piece work for attachment.

    I agree that they most likely didn't use a custom machined piece. But we need something to be the 'reflector', and few are going to be willing to experiment with epoxy or welding/brazing or solder, I think.

    I'd be interested in your 'lip' evidence? Also I'm not clear on your dowel/pressure point idea? As I see it the booster was epoxied to the pommel--there is evidence of glue at the join, then the 'booster/bearing' part, which was wired to the clamp by the end of the film, but was not wired in Tunisia, and may have used the 'booster/ring of holes' part' as a clamp spacer, then the grenade, with 2 screws into it through the clamp by the end of production, then the 'blobs' which are not on the same level of non-resolution as the 'gear spacer'--the latter, by the way, looks just like it should, once you know what you're looking for. ;)
     
  35. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    Ok, this is a brief review of how things shaped up in the old 'reflector' thread.

    I tried a bunch of different designs, trying to match what is seen in the movie. I ended up doing some tests to figure out what the depth of the 'thing' in there was:

    [​IMG]

    This reflector design was too elongated, the top not deep enough, and it showed that the top ring on the grenade stem was probably not visible on the prop:

    [​IMG]

    This is essentially the design I had at the end of the thread. This drawing shows the 'extreme' version which I think may be correct--requiring the stem to be cut down to get the full depth of the hole inside the emitter. Of course few will want to go this far, (and none will with real grenades I trust). So a slightly modified version would probably be what most people want, with room for a whole stem to go to the right depth, and the 'reflector' sides angled right to the hole.

    [​IMG]

    This was a test of the S-5b design with the hole the same size as the hole in the stem.

    [​IMG]

    Next is another test I did for lighting mostly--it shows the reflector not quite deep enough:

    [​IMG]

    The 'S 5b' design harkens back to an early test I did with a modified reflector from a very old flashlight which was actually rather promising:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2008
  36. Prometheus

    Prometheus Well-Known Member

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  37. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    Prometheus I'd ask what you think of ATL's method but we'll have to wait for him to re-apply the pictures.

    I HIGHLY recommend imageshack for image posting. As you can see, they stay up for a good long time. :D
     
  38. Prometheus

    Prometheus Well-Known Member

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    ATL's method in my opinion is very feasible and perhaps the best way to do it so far. However, maybe its just me but the thought of relying on washers makes me a little nervous. Perhaps its due to the fact that we are used to having custom machined emitters (which might not be entirely accurate at the time of production due to the lack of better evidence or pictures) that provide better and sturdier fittings. From looking at some pictures, i understand that the emitter on the real prop was pretty loose and was thinking if we can further improve on it. Its obvious from the desert pic that the prop makers had the same problem which we are about to face. The saber was lying on the ground with the emitter misaligned.
    As we all know, this particular prop is pretty tricky as it is being 'strung' together using 5 major components.

    AS wheel/booster assembly = pretty straight forward
    booster/clamp/grenade assembly = we dont know whats underneath the clamp but a simple pipe will suffice
    grenade stem/balance pipe assembly = definitely need a custom machined piece for the adapter but are there any other alternatives to using washers?

    Just a thought :)
     
  39. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Well, I now that I have added a BP to my collection of parts I'm interested in tis subject.

    I'm all for a machined internal reflector/adapter.

    This seems like a very simple part to machine, what am I missing?
     
  40. Serafino

    Serafino Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boba Debt @ Dec 24 2006, 03:31 AM) [snapback]1383879[/snapback]</div>
    It's true, the basic part shape is easy (I made a test piece and it was very straightforward). For those of us who don't mind using glue the whole problem doesn't really exist. For the rest, the issues are:

    1. Getting it to stay in place, there are many who don't want to deal with glue or solder.

    2. Attaching it to grenades of different stem diameters without blocking the hole through the stem.

    Prometheus--I don't envision a washer system, but I think the o-ring idea has some promise, at least as a direction of thought.

    I've also been thinking in terms of the principles of pressure-fittings such as used for refrigerants and Co2 systems, and also the way collets work.

    But you should keep in mind that the prop makers were able to make this attachment work in a small space because they didn't mind using solder or glue.

    You're asking for a way to create a detachable customizable (or at least available in different sizes) correct-looking attachment piece in that same small space without getting too complicated or expensive. It's a wee bit of a challenge, although I do still think it can be done.
     
  41. Vaderman

    Vaderman Sr Member

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    Hello,

    I've been reading this thread with great interest, though I am a complete newbie to the OWK saber.
    Is there a nice drawing of the separate parts? It's hard to follow which pieces you guys are talking about without having one in hand or a guide of some type.
    There are *several* threads mentioning this saber but they doin't have pics any more (that I could find, except for the thread with sketches of custom LS ideas.)

    Any help is appreciated.
    Thanks.
     
  42. franz bolo

    franz bolo Sr Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Vaderman @ Dec 24 2006, 04:45 PM) [snapback]1384117[/snapback]</div>
    JAMES KENOBI made a good diagram here.
     
  43. Vaderman

    Vaderman Sr Member

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    Excellent, thanks.
     
  44. ATL Kenobi

    ATL Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prometheus @ Dec 24 2006, 01:11 AM) [snapback]1383825[/snapback]</div>
    :lol :lol Prometheus - Until I tried this washer scheme, I wasn't sure it'd work, but 1) once all the nuts are tightened, I can't pull the emitter off, 2) it can be easily taken back apart, 3) the parts are cheap and readily available, and 4) it's non-destructive to the interconnector (BP), and/or the grenade. The reflector shown is optional, and I'll be replacing it with one from a flashlight.

    Here are the pictures again (now hosted by Imageshack.us)
    All the parts: Grenade, emitter (Roman's EL ready shown-which is actually the same inside diameter as a real one), 2 steel (or stainless) washers 1" OD, 3/8" ID, one 1-1/16" x 1/8" black rubber toilet tank bolt washer (available at The Home Depot), 1/8 IP lamp tubing, and two lamp nuts.
    [​IMG]

    The tubing is passed through the grenade, then a steel washer is slid on, then the rubber washer already inside the emitter, then the other steel washer, followed by a round lamp nut.
    [​IMG]

    It looks like this from the emitter end.
    [​IMG]

    And for clarity, like this with the emitter removed.
    [​IMG]

    I positioned the emitter so that it's about 5/32" from the groove in the grenade neck, and made sure it was straight.
    [​IMG]

    Then tightened the nut on the otherside of the grenade , thereby squeezing the the two steel washers against the rubber washer, and compressing it against the inside of the emitter. (Same principle as a drum sander)
    [​IMG]

    Once again, a Roman aluminum/brass reproduction grenade would have to be drill from 3/8" ID to 13/32" ID to accomodate the tubing. Use a zero rake drill bit on the brass.

    ATL Kenobi
     

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