Carbon-Freeze Vader Saber...an MPP. The Definitive ESB

[E.D.C. Studios]

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Oohyeah KL wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>I'm with Chip on the grip length.
As for the PoSW pics, Ithought it was already concluded that the proportions got distorted slightly, so I think if we are to do any measuring and scaling, we should measure along the same axis.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

Exactly what I did, I scaled the entire length of the saber to 11.25", but that made the band too long, so I scale it to the band, and the saber was almost an inch short...something is up with the OAL of that saber

 

[Ham Solo]

I definately think the grips are longer. I've messed with my Vader ESB saber to compare with the pics and it's almost dead-on.

 

[vaderdarth]

Chip, what is the difference on the length between a sol and the MPP?
Dave

 

[paul n]

jvasilatos :
</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>So based on an optical illusion that suggested a King Sol flash button that a B/W picture shows is not there, are we to now assume that the Empire Vader saber was an MPP with the only difference being longer grips (not even a circuit board on the clamp like the Skywalker Graflex?) </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually it wasn't really ever thought that the main Vader saber in ESB was a King Sol, only that the saber in the carbon freeze chamber scene was one. The grips wern't the only difference, the clamp sides are black not silver and there's a brass do-hicky holding the clmap together instead of a silver doo-hicky (probably a nial).

Chip:
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>No, I still think the grips are longer...put a grip on my MPP, adjusted the clamp, and there is too much room between the top of the clamp and the shroud then.

Here is something weird too, if you take the POSW pic, and scale it so it is the same length as an MPP 11.25" the band ends up being too long the diameter too think, and the grips are about 4.125" long.

There is definately something up with the tube length...

I wonder if there were variations in the length, kind of like the heiland research compared to the synchronar

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That's one thing I hate about PhotoShop, if you forget to hit "Shift" to constrain proportions when you use "Free Transform" you can really fudge things up with out even knowing it. I think we need a better pic to determine the grip length. As much as I hate to say it I've been wondering about the length thing to, were the earlier ones shorter? There were definietly some other changes made to the flash.

KL:
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>I'm with Chip on the grip length.
Once I get home (and have time) I'll do a side-by-side comparison of my MPP with that closeup pic Yoda201/TK posted. I'm 100% sure you'll see that the band is around the same area as the ANH, and that the grips are longer. </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

I still have to disagree, I've been looking at these pics for a long time and one of the first things I noticed was the clamp was lower. there's more tube above the clamp in ESB than in ANH, even without measuring it. I was looking at the PoSW pic in PhotoShop and put a marker in the midle of the clamp then moved the ruler so that it measured out from the center of the clamp to the top and end of the saber and the clamp is actually a little farther back than half way. When I did the same to the ANH pic from Chronicles the CLamp is dead center, so the clamp does apear to be farhter back. I still think the grips are longer but not so long that the clamp is in the same spot as in ANH.

Chris:
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>I just checked the grips. Looking at the B&W pic- the top of the clamp is 1 7/8" from the bottom of the horizontal slots.
If you take the side view of the ANH saber and move the clamp down to that position, the bottom of the clamp almost touches the top of the grips! ANH and ESB have the same grip length!!</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

I checked this on one of my HK MPP's by moveing the clamp down that far and I got 3 3/4" from the end of the clamp to coin edge of the end cap. That's only about 1/8" less than I came up with so I'm still sticking with 3 7/8".

~Paul

 

[gavidoc]

When I scaled the CF picture from POSW, I used Adobe Illustrator. Makes it easier to scale the images and to also keep the size the same.

When I scaled both the ANH and the ESB to the same length, the tubes were the same width and the clamps were the same size (give or take a bit cause of Image curvature). I got the grips on the CF to be close to 4.0625 I think. Don't remember.

 

[paul n]

Never even thought of using Illustrator. I'll have to try

~Paul

 

[paul n]

OK, I tryed Illustrator and I got the same measurements I always get.

~Paul

 

[paul n]

Tryed it yet again starting fresh with a new copy of the PoSW pic and still came up wierd, the length came out at about 10.5" The grips still measured arounf 3 7/8".

~Paul

 

[paul n]

OK, I just went in and sized up the ANH pic from Chronicles and when I adjusted the width to 1 1/2" the length came out 11 1/4" (as Chip said it should be) the grips came out at about 3 3/4" to 3 7/8" long. Then I took the PoSW ESB pic and adjusted it so the tube width was 1 1/2" then I stretched the pic till it was 11 1/4" long (it was only about 10 1/2" originally) with out altering the width. The clamp now measured up corectly and the front grip measured in at aprox. 4 1/8" (+/-). I now concur with Gav's grip measurements on the other thread.

Gav, Could you post the measurements you got here for us?

Damn this is fun!

~Paul

 

[paul n]

I had a thought about the yellow disk on the side of the clamp. I wonder if it's a clevis pin?:

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You just slide it through and put a cotter pin or roller pin through the hole and bam, your fastend down. That would also explain the lock-washer, it's there to take up the slack and keep the pin tight.

Thoughts?

~Paul

 

[Oohyeah KL]

So what's the conclusion for the grips?

As for that round thing on the sidebar, I would imagine they would use a similar setup like a nail, assuming the clamp was also broken like the ANH one (or assuming it's the same darn saber), which is probably the case otherwise why bother putting something extra there.

If so, we are probably looking for something with a top that looks like that clevis pin but with a long nail-like body.

OR, a round, flat head nail, with a washer underneath.

BTW, who still thinks it's a King Sol?

 

[paul n]

I'm sure the clevis pins come in different lengths and head sizes and shapes, it's just a mater of finding one that works then seeing if it looks right. I would think the longer the and thicker the pin the larger in proportion the head would be to increase the strength on the pin. I think they would have done a little better than a nail for the ESB. It still seems to me that they took just a bit more care in making the props for ESB, also why would they remove the original nail (asuming they used the same flash) and replace it with another one. I wish we had a good pic of the other side of the clamp, all I've ever seen is that one pic I've posted a couple of times from the scene where vader lobs off Lukes hand. Actually I swear I saw another pic on a cardboard stand-up of the other side but when I went back to where I thought I saw it it wasn't the right saber. I still don't know if I imagined it or just don't remmber where I saw it. Damn!

~Paul

 

[E.D.C. Studios]

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>paul n wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>OK, I just went in and sized up the ANH pic from Chronicles and when I adjusted the width to 1 1/2" the length came out 11 1/4" </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

Yep the chronicles pic checks out no problem....but the POSW mmp pic does not, no matter HOW you scale it, once you make the length 11.25" the clamp is too long, the shroud is too long etc... which means the tube has to be shorter.

I seriously thing were are looking at a different flash here, maybe its still an MPP but its just a shorte variation.

Also, I have had flashes in hand before that had those screws for the shroud to stop against just like the MPP...I have a bucnh of extra heilands and sols, Im going to measure then today to see if anything matches

 

[lonepigeon]

I'll did more checking on the grip length, but the clamp is definitely a lot lower than the ANH. Scaling the B&W pic to the ANH in Chronicles the clamp comes out to be 1/2" lower on the ESB. That makes the grip around 4" maybe longer. So I guess longer grips and lower clamp is correct.

The POSW ESB Vader saber scales fine for me. The clamp looks a bit short, but the length is correct 11 1/4". Scaling it to that size everything lines up with the ANH (length of shroud, location of holes, length of endcap etc.) Maybe the clamp is shorter on this one - a.k.a. the rubber backing could be missing.

With that backing missing, it would also explain how the clamp can be that low and still end up with grips 4.125" long.
Just a thought.

PS- I'll rescan the pic from POSW ESB page, it's a terrible pic but at least we could scale from the source image a little better.

 

[paul n]

Chip, When I stretched the pic the clamp ended up being the right length and I compensate for the rubber pad being there.

Chris, If you re-scan the image, can you set up a side by side with the ANH pic?

Man this is gettin' wierd

~Paul

 

[lonepigeon]

<http://lonepigeon.home.att.net/anhesbcompare.jpg>

Here's a quick shot of the comparison I had set up already.
You can't stretch the pic or all the prortions will go weird.
Trust the length on that ESB pic, but not the width. It was trimmed from a black background, the edges might not be perfect and I had to fake in the bottom half of the trigger assembly which was completely obscured.

The clamp and the grips look like they just split the difference to get rid of the space between them (clamp a little lower, grips a little longer).

 

[paul n]

Can't see the pic Chris.

I did one too with my stretched pic (though if the width of the original is no good it really doesn't matter if it is stretched)

Every thing lines up for me and the clamps widths match preaty good too.

I still want to see your version Chris.

~Paul

 

[E.D.C. Studios]

OK I dont know what the hell I was doing wrong, I was not using the free transform option either. But I just now scaled the POSW ESB pic again and it works out fine...go figure

BTW I also get 4.125" for the grip length longer than I ever thought they were

 

[Lordsandy]

Just wanted to point out that its not a hair on the ANH story book picture of Luke.

There are several still pics of that scene and the wire is there on a couple of them.

If anyone is interested I can post the ESB saber with the wire?

I also believe this saber has the bottom Graflex button but the wires wrap around in front of it making it hard to see.

Jim S.

 

[Lordsandy]

Heres the ESB Pic.

The red arrow is pointing to the bottom Graflex button behind the wires.

The top yellow arrow is pointing to the side port that the wires are coming out from.

The bottom yellow arrow is pointing to the wires as it runs infront of the Graflex button and behind the saber................

What do ya think????

Jim S.