Carbon-Freeze Vader Saber...an MPP. The Definitive ESB

[Pat Za Ponor]

From looking at all 3 pictures it doesn't look exactly like a MPP shroud. Looks like a created shroud. The whole shape of the shroud doesn't match one of a correct MPP. The proportions of the respective areas look a little off. The length of the ESB shroud looks too short. And the raised area at the back of the shroud looks longer and higher. Anothing thing to note is that the thumbscrew is possibly different on the ESB saber (from the posw pic). Perhaps since a MPP thumbscrew wasn't around. The D-ring is bigger aswell, or the shroud is just shorter. Also, a different shroud is a good reason why the bulb release had to be place further back on the flash.
What bothers me about assuming that all three sabers are the same are
1)The B&W photo has a black something located above the 2 port holes with the supposed black wire. This black circle, whatever it is, isn't present in the CF or POSW pics.
2)The shrouds in the B&W and POSW pics show some wear, where as the CF shroud looks great.
3)No sign of letters anywhere.
4)While two of the port holes show up clearly in the CF pic, if the other were a MPP the other two should show up clearer too. Maybe not quite as clear but it doesn't even look like they're there.
5)The screw right below the shroud in the CF pic isn't present in the POSW or B&W pic.
6)The length from the red wire in the B&W pic and the POSW pic look to be about the same. But where the red wire would be in the CF pic looks a lot shorter, and about the right length for a King Sol button.
EDIT: Just noticed something else
7)Grip position. In the POSW photo the red wired port hole lines up almost exactly with the 2 o'clock grip. In the CF photo where it is said the red wire port hole is lines up in between the 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock, exactly where the King Sol button lines up.
In conclusion the B&W and the POSW sure look and most likely are the same MPP. But no I'm not convinced about the CF saber. Doesn't look like a MPP to me. The lack of the port plugs is a big reason why, especially since if they are where people are saying they are then they are too close to the other port holes. And also too close to the supposed vertical hole.

 

[paul n]

Belive me, these are all the same sabers. I've been looking at these pics nonstop since this thread started.

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>From looking at all 3 pictures it doesn't look exactly like a MPP shroud. Looks like a created shroud. The whole shape of the shroud doesn't match one of a correct MPP. The proportions of the respective areas look a little off. The length of the ESB shroud looks too short. And the raised area at the back of the shroud looks longer and higher. Anothing thing to note is that the thumbscrew is possibly different on the ESB saber (from the posw pic).
</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Look at the comparison pics of the ESB vs. the ANH saber the shroudes line up. One of the biggest reasons that Chirs felt the CF saber wasn't a King Sol was because the shroud wasn't a created shroud. Also don't go by the PoSW pic too much, Chris has pointed out that much of the back side of the saber was filled in for the PoSW pic since the saber is up against Vaders robes. We're not dealing with nice clean pics of the saber here,but rather zoom-ins of the saber from bigger shots. Over all I disagree that the shroud looks any different from any other MPP shroud. Actually you can see a created shroud on the Barbician saber the proportions are VERY exagerated, nothing like the shrouds on the saber in the pics here.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>1)The B&W photo has a black something located above the 2 port holes with the supposed black wire. This black circle, whatever it is, isn't present in the CF or POSW pics.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

It's a shadow on the chrome, notice it continues after the bottom port hole. It's not an object.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>2)The shrouds in the B&W and POSW pics show some wear, where as the CF shroud looks great.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Doesn't really prove anything, all the pics were probably taken at different times and the level of ware has increased over time. The PoSW pic is from a Promo Shot probably done after filming, so the saber would be showing more ware. Also keep in mind that ALL these pics are not intended to be pics of the saber, they're enlargments of the saber from pics of vader, and you can only catch so much, before the grain of the film and pixelation degrade detail.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>3)No sign of letters anywhere.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Same as above, those are VERY tinny details that would very likely be lost at the resolution we're working at.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>4)While two of the port holes show up clearly in the CF pic, if the other were a MPP the other two should show up clearer too. Maybe not quite as clear but it doesn't even look like they're there. </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
The top one can be seen and the bottom one is a bit more obscured by the wire comeing out of it. Also the answer to #2 aplys here also, your gonna loose detail to the picture medieum. It's funny we've been really spoiled by the Chronicles pics of the ANH saber where you can make out every detail with out any work.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>5)The screw right below the shroud in the CF pic isn't present in the POSW or B&W pic.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes it is. In the B&W pic it's the little white highlight on just under the shroud and on the PoSW pic it actually shows up as a black spot, probably because the light just didn't pick it up due to the shroud. Trust me it's there.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>6)The length from the red wire in the B&W pic and the POSW pic look to be about the same. But where the red wire would be in the CF pic looks a lot shorter, and about the right length for a King Sol button.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
I disagree, they line up just right to my eye, again your looking at a picture of Vader AND Fett taken in low orange light and then magnafied to view the saber. It's not a button, there's no sighn of the button plate, the holes are rounded and you can see the spot where the rivet went to hold on the MPP badge. It's not a King Sol plain and simple.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>In conclusion the B&W and the POSW sure look and most likely are the same MPP. But no I'm not convinced about the CF saber. Doesn't look like a MPP to me. The lack of the port plugs is a big reason why, especially since if they are where people are saying they are then they are too close to the other port holes. And also too close to the supposed vertical hole. </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>
You can see the top of the upper port hole in the CF pic and again the botom one is obscured by the wire coming out of it. Also the holes do line up the way they are suposed to.

~Paul

 

[paul n]

I'd also like to add that my reasoning isn't only because of the portholes and shroud, the clamp has the same fixture A screw and nut) in place of the lever mechanism and the clamp has bubles, niether of wich are details the Barbician saber has (the lever on the clmap is fine and there is a connector card in the clamp). The clamp was actually the first clue that these were all the same saber. The screw and nut are functional and not meant to be a deliberate detail. The bubbles are not seen any where else in the movie on any saber except Vaders, this stems from the lickely hood that the ESB hero saber was just the ANH saber with an overhaul. The act that the clamp is heald together by a screw and nut also suports the theory that they used the ANH to make the ESB, the ANH's clamp was broken and was held together with a bent nail or similar item.

~Paul

 

[zahal]

Hey all check this out! Anyone out there have the Darth Vader Mini Helmet by Riddell...if you do and still have the box it came in check out the saber hanging on Vader's belt on the side of the box. I am pretty sure that this is the same picture used for the standee used to promote the Special Editions. You can clearly see the red wire in the porthole right beneath the shroud. I is definetly an MPP. You can also see what looks like the brass nut on the clamp, the grips start just beneath the clamp also. Just thought I would post and let you all know to check it out!! Never thought much about that pic or the saber in it until this thread came up!!! Funny how things work huh? Man I love this board!!!

Later,

Mike

 

[Oohyeah KL]

PZP, all that Paul said.

Mike - well spotted. Got a scanner?

 

[zahal]

Unfortunatly no scanner KL

!!! But I will see if I can find a pick of it somewhere!!!

Later,

Mike

 

[paul n]

Carp, Where's Chris? His partner on PoSW, Chris Reiff, designed some of those little helmets. Maybe he has a box laying around?

~Paul

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

I'm not sure how to properly place in quotes so I'm just going to put paul n's quotes in quotations, go figure.

"Chris felt the CF saber wasn't a King Sol was because the shroud wasn't a created shroud."

Actually I've read lonepigeon say a couple of times that he didn't think that the shroud on the "King Sol" version was a MPP shroud. Unless he has now changed his mind.

"Look at the comparison pics of the ESB vs. the ANH saber the shrouds line up."

Yes I agree with this. I wasn't very clear in my explaining but I think that the CF pic saber only has a different shroud.

"It's a shadow on the chrome, notice it continues after the bottom port hole. It's not an object."

Yes I now see that clearly. But that still doesn't stop my point that the CF saber is different. It does help that the B&W and POSW sabers are the same.

"The PoSW pic is from a Promo Shot probably done after filming, so the saber would be showing more ware"

Probably done after filming? That isn't certain so how do we know for sure? There isn't a sign of wear anywhere on the CF pic. A little spec of wear should be present somewhere if it was the same used flash. The POSW shroud is extremely worn whereas the CF doesn't have any markings. Assuming that these are the same flash then we'd also have to assume that the CF pic was taken on the first day of filming and the POSW pic was taken after filming and promos. That's a big assumption.

"Same as above, those are VERY tiny details that would very likely be lost at the resolution we're working at."

Agreed.

"The top one can be seen and the bottom one is a bit more obscured by the wire coming out of it."

If the port hole is where you say it is then it is too high. It doesn't line up with the other port holes. AND the top screw (the one right at the shroud) is too far up it. The hole doesn't line up with the screw or the other holes.

"Yes it is. In the B&W pic it's the little white highlight on just under the shroud and on the PoSW pic it actually shows up as a black spot, probably because the light just didn't pick it up due to the shroud. Trust me it's there."

Still can't see it on the POSW pic. And on the B&W pic it looks awfully big.

I wasn't clear about point 6 I made. I meant that the length from the red wire port hole to the base of the shroud looks the same in the POSW and B&W pic, but shorter in the CF pic.

"the holes are rounded "

Once I tried to make this point with the CF pic but other members took pics of their King Sols at the same angle and similar lighting and they showed up rounded too. So that isn't definite.

"Also the holes do line up the way they are suposed to."

I still don't agree. The vertical slot on the port holes with the supposed black wire would be scrunched way to close together. Plus I already stated how the top port hole is too high and too much to the right.

I think my point seven got lost in this so here it is again.
7)Grip position. In the POSW photo the red wired port hole lines up almost exactly with the 2 o'clock grip. In the CF photo where it is said the red wire port hole is, it lines up in between the 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock, exactly where the King Sol button lines up.

"Also the answer to #2 aplys here also, your gonna loose detail to the picture medieum." and " there's no sighn of the button plate,"

To support your argument you said that you can't see the bottom port hole due to the picture quality. Well then due to the picture quality we can say that the gap that seperates the button plate of a king sol to the flash could get lost in the quality too. The line we be harder to see too rather than a black gap in the flash. The plate line is very thin. As for the lack of Smiley face, well that could be lost just like the lettering. But also there are King Sols without the smiley face on the plate, it's just plain metal.

I think my point seven got lost in this so here it is again.
7)Grip position. In the POSW photo the red wired port hole lines up almost exactly with the 2 o'clock grip. In the CF photo where it is said the red wire port hole is, it lines up in between the 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock, exactly where the King Sol button lines up.

EDIT:

By the way as for what I think it is, I'm not sure yet. It would seem likely that it's a MPP cause why change the flash?, but I have my doubts as they are stated above. I would like to be certain about this before starting a new ESB Vader saber

 

[Ham Solo]

Ok. Here's mine with all the improvements based on the pics and info in this thread. I weathered mine too.

 

[Oohyeah KL]

Cool, Ham!!
Man, that takes guts to scratch up a pristine MPP!!!

Have you thought about shortening the grips down to the length that was decided upon as accurate?

Also, there should be a white wire on the outside of the black wire.

 

[SinkTube Jedi]

Damn, I am goign to have to come back to this subject, so Mods please archive this!

 

[Treadwell]

Probably moot now, but here's the Encyclopedia pic that was requested:

That's 600dpi. Can scan higher, but as you can see we're at the limit of the original's res.

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

Looks like there is a white wire in that pic.

 

[Ham Solo]

KL-

I'm leaving my grips "as is" for now.

I'll add a white wire to the black wire at some point and time. You know, whenever I feel like it.

(.......gets off computer and scrambles to find a white wire immediately.......)

 

[E.D.C. Studios]

Looks more like a bl;ack wire with a bit of highlite onit to me...considering all the other pics point to BLACK...im sticking with that

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

This pic shows up a lot smaller than how I have it. Could somebody please enlarge it? Or just Vader's saber. It looks like the King Sol button is on it from the size that I saw.

 

[Oohyeah KL]

Charles, if it's a highlight it's a pretty consistent highlight! Apart from that pic, it also appeared in the PoSW pic as well as the B&W pic.

I doubt it's as simple as a lighting thing.

PZP, I would imagine that would be the same saber as shown in the B&W pic, since the B&W pic seems to show that very same scene with the bounty hunters, except in-between takes.

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

I doubt it. If someone woudld enlarge it, even just a little it definetly looks like a King Sol button.

 

[E.D.C. Studios]

Oohyeah KL

Well if thes were the leftovaer wires used to drive the motors in the sabers, it would stand to reason that there would only be a red and a black, granted there COULD be a ground wire, but the should be green.

Im seriously thinking its a highlight, and of course it would be consistent, as long as there is a light source its there....seems way to blurry to be a wire, the black is much more defined

 

[Oohyeah KL]

PZP, you don't think he'd be carrying the same saber there as he is in this pic?
Charles, from this pic it doesn't look as if it's one wire. If it is, it's one mighty funny wire...