Carbon-Freeze Vader Saber...an MPP. The Definitive ESB

[paul n]

Thanx KL!

Back on subject, I've asked this a couple of times with out any answer: Does it look like there's been something placed in the holes left by the rivets that held the MPP badge on? In the variouse pics that spot seems to be catching light and I wouldn't think a hole would shine like that.

I wonder hwere Chris has gone, I'd love to hear his input on some of what has come up on this thread. I'd also like some help in defending my stance that these area all the same sabers

. After I do the chart I just can't think of any other way to prove it. Chris buddy! where are ya'?

~Paul

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

I did take a little offence to the statement of reading it all. The reason why I may have replied a little harshly is because I hate it when people don't read the whole thread and then say things that have already been covered. So I was a little peeved that you thought I may have done that, cause I didn't. No harm though. I can see why you may have thought that since I didn't clarify that Chris mentioned he thought the shroud was different in different threads and not this one.
As for the pic, I have it as the normal bigger size on my computer but when I upload it onto MSN photos it shrunk and it appears at a smaller size. I have the right size but it uploads small. Maybe I could sent it to someone else?
I'm really looking forward to that chart. Like I said it would make the most sense that the CF saber was a MPP, but as of now I don't think there is quite enough proof to rule it as a definite MPP and not another flash, perhaps a King Sol.

 

[Oohyeah KL]

PZP - I see! In that case, just email me the pic! I'll crop and post immediately!

Paul - could be something there, but could just be a reflection off the inner walls of hole.
Hard to say.

 

[ericfett]

Thanks guys! being new to this prop making is really cool especially because of you prop maker masters. I have two heilands I'm decking out and I know they're not mpp but they'll do. We see everything from our own " certain point of view", remember that. Peace not pieces!

 

[paul n]

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Pat Za Ponor wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color> I did take a little offence to the statement of reading it all. The reason why I may have replied a little harshly is because I hate it when people don't read the whole thread and then say things that have already been covered. So I was a little peeved that you thought I may have done that, cause I didn't. </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Really sorry 'bout that

, I feel the same way about reading the whole thread before posting too. I NEVER meant to insult you in any way. Looking back at my post it did come off harsh. I've been under a lot of tention lately (work related) and I guess it may have worked it's way into my post. Agian, I am sorry.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>I'm really looking forward to that chart. Like I said it would make the most sense that the CF saber was a MPP, but as of now I don't think there is quite enough proof to rule it as a definite MPP and not another flash, perhaps a King Sol.
</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

I will probably get the chart up on Monday, I'm working tomorrow and I'll be out of town on Sunday. Hopefully I canprove it to ya'. My full theory is that there was really only one MPP used for vaders saber between both ANH and ESB. There are some odd similarities that make it very likely.


Pat & KL, can't wait to se that pic!

Man there has been so much info here that I'm starting on a Vader Saber diary to keep track of all that I've (we've) learned about the Hero Vader sabers from ANH and ESB (there technicaly wasn't a hero for RoTJ) and some info on the MPP and the differences between it and the Hieland Synchronar. I feel Like Henry Jones puting this thing together!


~Paul

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

Yeah no problem Paul. No hard feelings what so ever.
And Oohyeah I'll send over the pic right now.

 

[Barnstormer]

This is a tad bit of digression, but it remains a point of interest to me, because I haven't worked out a plausible explanation for it yet - Paul, I strongly question whether that can be the ANH stunt saber in the candid archives photo. That really looks to me like the ROTJ Vader Graflex. There are no details clear enough to be positive, but the proportions match, and the shroud looks wrong to me to be an MPP - I see what looks like the tall black D-ring post on the ROTJ.

The scotchlite blade is a headscratcher on that hilt, and I suppose that would make an argument for that being an ANH stunt, but the dogma is that there were no Vader sabers left by the time Jedi went into production, hence the Vader Graflex.

This photo will muddy the waters further.

I would take that to be what passed for the ANH Vader stunt. Look closer -

That's no MPP shroud, and I doubt that that is much more than a piece of chromed pipe cut vaguely to shape and painted black around the 'emitter' end. Hell, the Vader ANH stunt could have been the first sink tube 'hardware' saber for all we know!!

Another conclusion that I've been slowly creeping up on - I don't think that the Vader-ANH stunt was motorized, or at least I don't think that the motor was used during filming. I just watched the ANH duel again very carefully, and this is what I saw. If you look at Luke's lightsaber, it has a thick, shimmery blade. Obi-Wan's lightsaber has a thick shimmery blade, and you can clearly see the cord. Vader's blade, if you look at it compared to Obi-Wan's, is a bit thinner and does not shimmer.

That shimmer that you see in Luke and Ben's lightsabers are what the motorized blades were meant to achieve (and before anyone says that the blades covered over with animation, I'm pretty satisfied that animation only provided the color. Otherwise, there could not have been 'holes' in Obi-Wan's blade at certain angles.) Vader's blade is MUCH smoother than the other two - I don't think it was spinning. Perhaps the motor was broken and they didn't have time to fix it, or perhaps Lucas wanted the villain's to look different, or perhaps the crudeness of the Vader stunt hilt made the motor difficult to install.

Thread hijack? Sort of, but no - this is at least tangentially germain to the wires in the ESB MPP. I feel strongly that the ESB MPP could not be related to the ANH stunt, because I'm reasonably satisfied that (1) the stunt was very crude and certainly no MPP, and (2) may not even have been motorized.

Well, sirs, what do you think?

 

[Oohyeah KL]

OK, here's the pic that PZP emailed to me, cropped and blown up.
Don't know about you, Zach, but I can't make out anything meaningful in that picture.
Barnstormer, that's an interesting pic - thanks for posting. That's certainly not an MPP, and I don't think a Graflex. In fact, it's like nothing I've ever seen before. IMO, most certainly a stunt saber. I think it'd be best to repost this and continue discussion on that saber in the Definied ANH saber thread, despite the slight "tangential" relevance to this thread. Just so we keep our focus...

 

[lonepigeon]

Yes, I was thinking at one point that the CF saber had a different shroud. It was an idea I had for awhile and when the Barbican saber showed up I thought it could be true. I was wrong.

I was also wrong on the theory that this saber was a King Sol.
I was never positive of that and here we've all proven it wrong. That ESB saber is an MPP, I am absolutely POSITIVE.

The shroud weathering difference bugs me as well.
I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer for that.
Some of the photos are promo shots, but here's the problem:
1. The saber in the Star Destroyer set shots seems to show the well worn shroud.
2. The Carbon Freeze looks like it's in great shape.
3. The Dilema: The Star Destroyer shots were filmed in the Spring of 1979, BEFORE the Carbon Freeze scenes (summer 1979- started in June).

The photo on the Riddell Mini Helmet box is from the exact same photo shoot as the PoSW pic- the two pics were taken minutes apart. (Vader with two Stormtroopers, red background - box photo cuts out the troopers who do not change position between the two pics).

That pic of Josh holding the lightsaber in the Archives looks like the ROTJ Graflex Vader saber- this was discussed in the Energizer Bunny saber thread. Obviously taken before they hacked off the blade for the saber to go on tour (see the rough cut on the brass rod in that saber).
BTW- Josh said they had lots of stunt sabers when he was there.
I'm not sure why the scotchlite blade. Maybe it was an ANH Luke stunt originally. Maybe depending on what they were shooting they still used Scotchlite blades so they'd show up better on film for the animators to see.

Cool pics of the ANH stunt. I'm not surprised it's that rough. The Obi-Wan was cast in metal from a wooden lathe spun saber, which is why it's so rough.

BTW- the pics taken on the Star Destroyer set are all the same background. That's the set at Leavesden with Kurtz and Kershner in it. The arch you see is the one down the hall in the color bounty hunter photo. Believe me I know these sets pretty well.

 

[roymanns]

Question how many wires total on the saber 2 or 3

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

Ok here's something else, like Sink Tube Jedi said earlier, it looks like something is protruding. In this pic number 1 is supposed to be the vertical port plug.

But how can this be so if it is off the flash? This second pic shows the sides of the flash highlighted in green and as you can see the number 1 hole isn't even on the flash. Something IS protruding off of it.

Here's a pic taken at a different angle which makes the protrusion that much clearer.

From this pic people also said that the end cap is a MPP end cap. It sure does look like this King Sol end cap though.

 

[paul n]

#1 is the red wire arching between the holes in the vertical port, not the vertical port it's self. There are two different wire's the one(s) going between the the first pair of horizontal ports and the other is inserted into the holes on the vertical port "B".

~Paul

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

I edited my post above with another pic. The red wire theory doesn't check out since the supposed red wire in the second pic would be starting and ending off of the flash, which we know isn't possible.

 

[paul n]

The line in you pic is too far in.

~Paul

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

The line might be off a little, but I think the point is still valid.
From that pic it really looks like something other than wires is there, possibly a button. It doesn't look like wires at all. The black wire doesn't show at all, the holes don't either. There is a shadow on top of the protrusion (button?) that you might mistake for the top port hole, but again no trace of the bottom one at all, because it isn't there. Top hole is a shadow possible from the shroud and the bottom one isn't there at all. That pic also shows a very clear circular shape.

 

[Oohyeah KL]

PZP, I can understand that you think it might not be wires, but a button.
I too questioned that myself, though I'm now 90% sure those are wires in the CF pic, just like they are clearly wires in the other pics.
But even if I question whether those are wires or something else, I, like Chris, like Paul, etc., have no doubt in my mind that the base flash is an MPP and NOT a King Sol. Heck, I still wish it were a KS since I have one myself, but there are just too many signs of it being an MPP and not a King Sol.

I've posted numerous times with a list of reasons showing (i) why it looks like an MPP; and (ii) why it does NOT look like a King Sol, so I'm not going to do it again.

If there is any doubt remaining, it is only as to whether those are wires or something else, but NOT the flash that was used.

All IMHO, of course.

 

[paul n]

(for bigger than postage-stamp size: http://www.printroom.com/ViewAlbumPhoto.asp?userid=paul%2Dn&album_id=49424&image_id=19&view=actual )
Also:

(for bigger than postage stamp size: http://www.printroom.com/ViewAlbumPhoto.asp?userid=paul%2Dn&album_id=49424&image_id=18&view=actual )

I didn't put a line in for the other side of the tube on this one since it's obscured by Vaders capes.

If any one wants to post the full size pics that I've linked to please do!

~Paul

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

Ok I think this pic here says a lot.

[attachmentid=464]

It's this pic that makes me almost positive that there aren't wires on this saber and it is some sort of round protrusion. Why you ask? Because the shadowing and lighting on it shows that it it one protruding shape. The top is all dark and black since it would be getting the reflection from Vader. The botton is all bright, unlike any other part around that area of the flash since they aren't sticking out to catch the lights from the Carbon Freeze set under Vader. There is even a transisional phase where the light gradually turns to dark and vice versa.

This flash could be one that we haven't discovered yet. The reason why I think it could not be a MPP though is because if that is a round protrusion then that means that the flash would be missing the appropriate number or port holes. Another distinction of the MPP was that it has the hole right under the shroud. But if we're talking King Sols that screw could be the screw on the plate, the shroud could be pulled down right up to it. (Speaking of which I still think this shroud might be different, but I'll leave that alone for ahwhile.)


(BTW I think your line is too far out, but I mean we could go on like this forever.)

 

[Oohyeah KL]

Amazing how two ppl can look at the same thing and see something totally different!

Actually, that round thing shows very clearly that not only are they wires, but there are TWO wires (what I've been saying for a while now).

The presence of that thingy (even if a button or button-like thing) does not negate the presence of the port holes.
The question Chris posted in his first post in this thread was what was put in that port hole area, over (or into) the port holes.

If you look at the other CF pic, you can also see that the round thing is not completely round, but breaks off at the top and bottom, just like how it would be if they were two separate semi-circles on each side - ie., semi-circles caused by the shape of the wires.

And try as I might I cannot get the shroud on my King Sol pulled past the plate to be so near that little screw.
If anyone can I'd love to see it.

 

[Pat Za Ponor]

Yeah I agree that this flash can't be a King Sol.
It's a MPP for sure, I'm sure of that now after all this discussing. Hopefully all this talk has led stragglers like myself to forget the King Sol.

I don't see wires though. I think it looks like something sticking out. I'm looking forward to the chart.