Captain America: Civil War (Post-release)

I had a thought about how much of an a-hole Tony Stark is. Not that you have to dig very deep to begin with but...

So... IM3. In the beginning of the movie helps Maya Hansen with what would become Extremis [in order get her in bed]. So he obviously understood the science then.
At the end of IM3 he cures Pepper of Extremis... so more than likely he understands it enough that he could probably come up with a stable version of it and at a minimum enhance Black Widow and Hawkeye. At most, I don't know, create multiple Avenger teams with Extremis-enhanced members.

A question of morality? Cap is enhanced and there would have been more had Eskine not been killed. Gen. Ross is always chasing down Banner, not to help him but to get what he has. So I don't think the question of "should we make super-soldiers" is an issue at that level.

Avengers AoU... Hawkeye gets shot up in Sokovia. Would have been a non-issue if he was enhanced by Extremis. Probably could have taken all the shots that Quicksilver took and walked away. But nah.

Captain America CW... His best friend gets shot out of the sky and is so busted up he can barely walk. He could give him Extremis, which would completely heal him , and then remove Extremis (like he did for Pepper). Instead, he gives him some crappy mechanical leg things and offers to spend money on stuff. What a friend.

So yeah... just had to get that out
 
^ I completely agree. Tony has always been a.....complicated fellow, and that's being nice about it.
He's selfish, egotistical, and refuses to entertain the idea that someone else may know more about a situation or be better qualified to handle it than he is.
CA:CW is entirely Tony's fault for a myriad of reasons, and the character is (or ought to be) shamed many times by how everyone else in the Avengers is a morally better person than he is.
 
That's the biggest "reality break" between the MCU and how I feel it would "really" be handled... The non-powered Avengers should at least have access to (even if they turn it down) stable-Extremis and Stark-tech powered suits. That might be where Falcon's flight pack comes from. Not sure. But why not a full-body suit? Ditto one for Hawkeye, even if he'd prefer no helmet. Maybe a sideplot of working on developing one for Natasha that can not only handle but enhance her dexterity. I can also actually see both of them rejecting Extremis. I can see Clint worrying about how it would affect his aging, and the impact that would have on his family. I can see Tasha resisting on the grounds of all the other stuff that was done to her in the past. But I can't see Sam or Rhodey turning it down.

--Jonah
 
I had a thought about how much of an a-hole Tony Stark is. Not that you have to dig very deep to begin with but...

So... IM3. In the beginning of the movie helps Maya Hansen with what would become Extremis [in order get her in bed]. So he obviously understood the science then.
At the end of IM3 he cures Pepper of Extremis... so more than likely he understands it enough that he could probably come up with a stable version of it and at a minimum enhance Black Widow and Hawkeye. At most, I don't know, create multiple Avenger teams with Extremis-enhanced members.

A question of morality? Cap is enhanced and there would have been more had Eskine not been killed. Gen. Ross is always chasing down Banner, not to help him but to get what he has. So I don't think the question of "should we make super-soldiers" is an issue at that level.

Avengers AoU... Hawkeye gets shot up in Sokovia. Would have been a non-issue if he was enhanced by Extremis. Probably could have taken all the shots that Quicksilver took and walked away. But nah.

Captain America CW... His best friend gets shot out of the sky and is so busted up he can barely walk. He could give him Extremis, which would completely heal him , and then remove Extremis (like he did for Pepper). Instead, he gives him some crappy mechanical leg things and offers to spend money on stuff. What a friend.

So yeah... just had to get that out
Tony is, to various degrees, an a-hole. That much is a given since the first IM movie. But keep in mind that his character arc in the first film really begins with an epiphany that he should become a better person. If you take historical events that take place before IM then, of course, he's a complete womanizing d-bag, but that's not (entirely) the same "stand-up" Stark we have today. I think of the current Stark as more of a "recovering" a-hole.

Now let's take your issue with Extremis. Your entire thesis is founded on the presumption that Stark is capable of creating a "stable" version of Extremis. That's a huge leap in logic. Being able to understand a process or even "cure" someone from it is a FAR, FAR, FAR cry from being able to modify the process to make it viable in vivo. It's entirely conceivable that it's impossible to use Extremis in the way it's hoped to work.

Now let's take the ethical issue. By "Extremis-enhanced" do you mean Human-torchify the Avengers? Or do you just mean the healing ability? If you mean the former then there is an ethical issue that doesn't apply to super-soldiers. The destructive ability of Extremis is so excessive that its utility is limited. A super-soldier can pound a horde of Nazis or rescue a kitten from a tree. With Extremis you're basically incinerating everything. Put it another way, if you found a cheap way to make nuclear weapons, is it effective to get rid of the soldier's trusty M16A4 and equip each soldier with a nuclear weapon? I don't think so. Extremis is impractical.

If you mean to just to grant the healing properties of Extremis to the Avengers then it's still a problem. How do we know it wouldn't have long term adverse side effects in the future? In 5-20 years it may cause anything from leukemia to premature balding. Is that different from Steve Rogers in WW2? Yes it is. Remember, the super-soldier was an experiment in a time of war. As a subject, this scrawny guy from Brooklyn was expendable. The Black Widow and Hawkeye are not "expendable" (I know what you're thinking - don't even go there. They are active members of the Avengers so, by definition, they have utility).

So yes, even if Stark has a theory of making Extremis a viable healing tool, it would be unethical of him to test it out on his buddy. Remember that Stark is a tech-guy - he's not a scientist, like Banner. I have more faith in his ability to make mechanical prostheses than medical interventions that bypass the entire FDA.
 
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Maybe at this point after Ultron and Exremis (lack of helping there I guess) that he's finally thinking before he leaps. He knows his engineering and suits, so maybe he figures he can help Rhodey better that way?
 
Tony is, to various degrees, an a-hole. That much is a given since the first IM movie. But keep in mind that his character arc in the first film really begins with an epiphany that he should become a better person. If you take historical events that take place before IM then, of course, he's a complete womanizing d-bag, but that's not (entirely) the same "stand-up" Stark we have today. I think of the current Stark as more of a "recovering" a-hole.

Now let's take your issue with Extremis. Your entire thesis is founded on the presumption that Stark is capable of creating a "stable" version of Extremis. That's a huge leap in logic. Being able to understand a process or even "cure" someone from it is a FAR, FAR, FAR cry from being able to modify the process to make it viable in vivo. It's entirely conceivable that it's impossible to use Extremis in the way it's hoped to work.

Now let's take the ethical issue. By "Extremis-enhanced" do you mean Human-torchify the Avengers? Or do you just mean the healing ability? If you mean the former then there is an ethical issue that doesn't apply to super-soldiers. The destructive ability of Extremis is so excessive that its utility is limited. A super-soldier can pound a horde of Nazis or rescue a kitten from a tree. With Extremis you're basically incinerating everything. Put it another way, if you found a cheap way to make nuclear weapons, is it effective to get rid of the soldier's trusty M16A4 and equip each soldier with a nuclear weapon? I don't think so. Extremis is impractical.

If you mean to just to grant the healing properties of Extremis to the Avengers then it's still a problem. How do we know it wouldn't have long term adverse side effects in the future? In 5-20 years it may cause anything from leukemia to premature balding. Is that different from Steve Rogers in WW2? Yes it is. Remember, the super-soldier was an experiment in a time of war. As a subject, this scrawny guy from Brooklyn was expendable. The Black Widow and Hawkeye are not "expendable" (I know what you're thinking - don't even go there. They are active members of the Avengers so, by definition, they have utility).

So yes, even if Stark has a theory of making Extremis a viable healing tool, it would be unethical of him to test it out on his buddy. Remember that Stark is a tech-guy - he's not a scientist, like Banner. I have more faith in his ability to make mechanical prostheses than medical interventions that bypass the entire FDA.

Pepper would probably argue how much he's "reformed" given they're on the break. More presumption I guess.

Aside from Killian, did any of the other Extremis soldiers blow flames out of their mouths? Yes, they got pretty hot... and used that heat to their advantage in battle. I don't see how it's excessive... until they blow up. In the final battle of IM3 none of those soldiers blew up the way the guy did at the Chinese Theater because he didn't have his dose of the "regulating" drug. They're not incinerating everything... otherwise they wouldn't be able to wear clothes. His crony wasn't melting the chair he was sitting in when his boss was having a meeting with Pepper. If they're melting things, it's intentional. I see a lot of utility in that. The Fantastic 4 would probably agree it's not to have that ability on your side.

Yes, they did the Super-Soldier thing during war. A war between people. Now we have aliens invading the planet. It might not be an "active" war, but it still requires trying new things before the next major conflict (Infinity War?). Could it go wrong? Sure... look at the super-helicarriers in Winter Soldier. Could have been a very valuable asset... if they weren't going to be used to annihilate the population of half the planet. So yeah, I would have concerns about who is going to be Extremis-ized. I certainly wouldn't want Ross heading up that program.

Does Extremis have negative side effects? I know growing limbs back is a pretty sweet side effect that I'd be at the front of the line for. If there's unseen negatives I can only assume Stark is still conducting lots of tests on Pepper to keep an eye on that, right? She had it. He got it out of her. If she's not going to be in the movies any more, it would be interesting if they killed her character off by saying there were unseen side effects to having been "exposed" to Extremis. But they haven't. So she's had a clean bill of health for at least 3 years. So, again, why wouldn't be try to use that science to heal his buddy?

I agree Hawkeye and Widow might not accept the offerand I considered that before, and for the same reasons. Clint's a family guy and semi-retired. Natasha was already messed with a lot as a child. At a minimum, though, Rhodey probably would. Given his current condition, he'd be a fool not to. Again, Tony understands the science of it and obviously knew enough to fix his girlfriend. Add to that, he has other brains to help him, including the artificial lifeform he was responsible for creating with Vision. Seems like a waste.

I'd argue how expendable their team thinks they (Clint/Natasha) are, given they send unenhanced people into battles against hordes of aliens and an army of robots... wearing no body armor and using a bow and arrow and handguns. They trust that they can handle themselves, but, like you said, Stark doesn't (that we know of) offer to put them in any kind of Stark-tech. How ethical is it to allow people to go into combat equipped disproportionately with their enemies? What would the world think if we started sending troops into Iraq with no body armor and only handguns and longbows?
 
About Tony's arc. What was being referred to is Tony post-epiphany.

About Extremis. Tony may primarily be a tech guy, but he knows enough organic chemistry that, blackout drunk, he was able to steer Maya onto the right track. And at the end of IM3, it is strongly implied he finished/perfected Extremis. i.e., no 'splodey/overheating. The "glitch", as Maya referred to it. Pepper was lamenting her fate and Tony said since he was able to get as far as he did a dozen years earlier while drunk it shouldn't be too hard. Right on the heels of that, he said why not fix myself, too? If getting the shrapnel out was all there was to it, he would have done it as soon as he got home. He's got a several-inch-diameter hole in his chest that the reactor fit in. As in, a chunk cut out of his sternum. In order to heal from that, let alone quickly and as thoroughly as later shots show... That's Extremis. In the movie's coda, he's referring to using the finished Extremis (in conjunction with the surgery we see) to fix himself. Utterly certain neither he nor Pepper have any overheating issues after that point in that film. Hyper-healing? Maybe/probably. Need to re-watch AoU and CW to see how much of a beating Tony takes and how quickly he apparently recovers.

--Jonah
 
Pepper would probably argue how much he's "reformed" given they're on the break. More presumption I guess.
I didn't say "reformed." I said "recovering." :angry

Besides, their interpersonal dispute isn't over Tony's womanizing or drinking - it's over his admitted inability to give up his commitment to his perceived duty and responsibility as a superhero. :p

Nice try.

Aside from Killian, did any of the other Extremis soldiers blow flames out of their mouths? Yes, they got pretty hot... and used that heat to their advantage in battle. I don't see how it's excessive... until they blow up. In the final battle of IM3 none of those soldiers blew up the way the guy did at the Chinese Theater because he didn't have his dose of the "regulating" drug. They're not incinerating everything... otherwise they wouldn't be able to wear clothes. His crony wasn't melting the chair he was sitting in when his boss was having a meeting with Pepper. If they're melting things, it's intentional. I see a lot of utility in that. The Fantastic 4 would probably agree it's not to have that ability on your side.
Even assuming that Stark cracked the code on how to grant the power of the Human Torch through Extremis (which has yet to be established) that would be an argument to apply this to an army of human volunteers instead of Avengers.

Yes, they did the Super-Soldier thing during war. A war between people. Now we have aliens invading the planet. It might not be an "active" war, but it still requires trying new things before the next major conflict (Infinity War?). Could it go wrong? Sure... look at the super-helicarriers in Winter Soldier. Could have been a very valuable asset... if they weren't going to be used to annihilate the population of half the planet. So yeah, I would have concerns about who is going to be Extremis-ized. I certainly wouldn't want Ross heading up that program.
Even assuming that Stark cracked the code on how to grant the power of the Human Torch through Extremis (which has yet to be established) that would be an argument to apply this to an army of human volunteers instead of Avengers.

Does Extremis have negative side effects? I know growing limbs back is a pretty sweet side effect that I'd be at the front of the line for. If there's unseen negatives I can only assume Stark is still conducting lots of tests on Pepper to keep an eye on that, right?
I repeat. Just because he took it out of her he's far from having mastered Extremis.

Besides, they're "on the outs". I doubt if he's doing any experiments on her at the moment.

She had it. He got it out of her. If she's not going to be in the movies any more, it would be interesting if they killed her character off by saying there were unseen side effects to having been "exposed" to Extremis. But they haven't. So she's had a clean bill of health for at least 3 years. So, again, why wouldn't be try to use that science to heal his buddy?

I agree Hawkeye and Widow might not accept the offerand I considered that before, and for the same reasons. Clint's a family guy and semi-retired. Natasha was already messed with a lot as a child. At a minimum, though, Rhodey probably would. Given his current condition, he'd be a fool not to. Again, Tony understands the science of it and obviously knew enough to fix his girlfriend. Add to that, he has other brains to help him, including the artificial lifeform he was responsible for creating with Vision. Seems like a waste.
But if, after 5 years, Rhodey got diagnosed with Acute Myeloid Leukemia I don't think it would have been worth it.

I'd argue how expendable their team thinks they (Clint/Natasha) are, given they send unenhanced people into battles against hordes of aliens and an army of robots... wearing no body armor and using a bow and arrow and handguns. They trust that they can handle themselves, but, like you said, Stark doesn't (that we know of) offer to put them in any kind of Stark-tech. How ethical is it to allow people to go into combat equipped disproportionately with their enemies? What would the world think if we started sending troops into Iraq with no body armor and only handguns and longbows?
I'm with you here.
Why doesn't Tony suit up the entire team? I can't say it's about the expense because he just blew up a bunch of suits in IM3 without hesitation.
But maybe he doesn't trust his most personal tech with anybody else but himself and his BFF. (It still bothers me that Rhodey just stole the suit. It doesn't seem like something a best friend would do and I'm not sure why Tony just let him keep it.)

Then again, as an Avenger, knowing Tony, I wouldn't trust the telemetry it would likely be gathering on myself and my life. I know I wouldn't be comfortable knowing that Tony had a streaming database on my life. I'm pretty sure that would be reason enough for Cap, Falcon, Widow and Clint to reject the offer. Banner and Thor have no need for that stuff. Scarlet Witch isn't a brawler and the suit would likely interfere with her abilities. Ant-Man definitely wouldn't trust a Stark. And Panther is no fool - he's not going to trade Vibranium weave for that old clunker - no way.

About Tony's arc. What was being referred to is Tony post-epiphany.
I was only referring to the bit where he was helping Maya just to get her into bed. That's when the point was how much of an "a-hole" Tony is supposed to be.
 
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(It still bothers me that Rhodey just stole the suit. It doesn't seem like something a best friend would do and I'm not sure why Tony just let him keep it.)

I always fully was of the belief that Tony had already planned ahead, and allowed Rhodey to access the MkII. Now that I've gone back and looked (without watching the whole movie) I can't see any exact evidence for that. But I do believe at this point in the movie, Tony has almost fully accepted that he is going to die, and therefore he allows Rhodey to continue his legacy etc.

I do very much enjoy the "Give me a fat beat to beat my buddy's ass to." and then the duh-duh dum dum dum...

But Rhodey was justified I think. Tony was being reckless, putting people in danger. If the "Iron Man" was incapable of completing his self sworn duties, then it fell to the military to step up - the MkII was the most efficient way of keeping ahead of the curve.
 
That's debatable... Rhodey was a tool as soon as Cheadle took over. I cheered (internally) when he got dropped like a 10-lb bag of poo by Vision.

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That's debatable... Rhodey was a tool as soon as Cheadle took over. I cheered (internally) when he got dropped like a 10-lb bag of poo by Vision.
A small part of me felt the exact same way. I hate to admit it.

I liked Terrence Howard so much more than Cheadle. I like Cheadle as an actor but, as Rhodey, Howard simply had more credibility, comic timing and natural chemistry with RDJ. Since IM2 I've been trying really hard to like Cheadle but, yeah, he phoned it in with IM2 and still felt like a tourist in IM3. In AoU he was at least a bit more likable but maybe it's because I was trying to like him.
 
Note to Stark: Maybe you should equip future IM suits with a parchute.

Cheadle did have one line that I liked a lot. It's in the airport scene where the gas truck gets hurled and everyone got out of the way except him. "Aww ... c'mon!" His delivery was spot on, I must admit. Still makes me laugh.
 
Note to Stark: Maybe you should equip future IM suits with a parchute.

Cheadle did have one line that I liked a lot. It's in the airport scene where the gas truck gets hurled and everyone got out of the way except him. "Aww ... c'mon!" His delivery was spot on, I must admit. Still makes me laugh.

Still think War Machine/Cheadle should of died, to make the "civil war" aspect have some merit. Not to mention Cheadle as Rhodes is whack.
 
It really took away a lot of the high stakes feel for me when they let Rhodey live. Not that I wanted the character dead, but it seems unrealistic to me to fall from that height and live. At that point, the suit would hurt more than help, IMO.
Plus, I think it would have suited the ending scene better. Tony goes to find Cap and Bucky, and has to come to terms with the fact that almost everyone he was close to except for Pepper is dead. I think it would have hit home a lot harder and made that final battle that much more heart-wrenching.
In the comics, the great tragedy is that Steve, who Tony looked up to despite their differences, dies. Here, in the movie, if Rhodey had died and Steve walked away I think we would have had a similar effect. At the end, when Steve tells Tony that they will still help him if he needs it, you can see that Tony knows that he broke the team permanently. Steve's forgiveness is almost worse than his continued anger because Tony knows that he, Tony, made it all worse.
I think that if Rhodey had died that scene would have been magnified, and we would have had the kind of sorrowing, heart-breaking finale that was in the comics.

Personally, I was holding out hope that they would go closer to the comic books and have Rumlow kill Steve, which would halt the war just a little too late.
 
Still think War Machine/Cheadle should of died, to make the "civil war" aspect have some merit. Not to mention Cheadle as Rhodes is whack.
I head an interview with the Russo brothers who addressed the question of whether or not they were planning to kill off anyone in Civil War and they brought up a valid point - they said it was never in the cards to kill anyone off because that's just an overused and cheap way to inflate the stakes in a story (c.f. "fridging" of characters). The stakes of this story is the integrity of the Avengers. It's no less interesting without the death - in fact, RDJ's emotional journey alone makes an impact. The fragmented team/friendship is a more original and interesting approach.
 
I heard something similar to that in another comic movie related interview... probably BvS.
It's a cheap way to inflate the stakes when they don't stay dead. Killing off flagship characters lost its meaning a long time ago when they killed off Superman, Robin, etc. and then brought them back. At least with a lesser character like Rhodes he'd have stayed dead. But I agree, it probably wouldn't have had much more impact in the movie. RDJ did a good enough job emoting his struggle to keep things together while wrestling with his daddy/mommy issues.
 
With the Indiana Jones films we didn't ever believe that he was in any danger of dying. Yet it didn't make the films any less exciting, suspenseful or fun. Did anybody ever think James Bond could actually die in his movies?
 
Well thats different though regarding Indy, its HIS movie, this was basically Avengers 2.5, and I think death, especially in cinema, is way different than in comic books. If he died, and STAYED dead, it would matter. Hell, I thought it was cheap, making everyone THINK he is dead, and he turns out to be crippled. To me, thats showing you dont have the guts to kill someone, or to do it correctly. Look, Joss killed 2 people in his outings, and they ressurected one for TV. Quiksilver dying showed that not everyone is immune because the audience knows them to be a main character. And cmon, do we need diet iron man anyway?

Also, at the end of CW, were the stakes really that high anyway? With the letter saying "hey, Im still here if you need me" kind of thing? I dont want Iron Man to be the center of Marvels cinematic outing the way DC does Batman. Almost everything (aside from Man of Steel) focuses on Batman. I dont want that the case with Tony.
 
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