ANH Motorised stunt Saber experiments (& blades) Part 1

[Mouse Vader]

Squeeze one in while I'm here. T-track.
Here's the quickly assembled miter cutter with end stop so I don't have to keep measuring lengths of the stuff. Just slide to the stop & cut & all (roughly) the same length. Not being too pinnickerty with this stuff. Then filed on the angle judged by eye - which is how I'm presuming it was done at the time.


T-track I'm using is bough from a guy in the UK (Fleabay seller name is super6uk or search Star Wars T-track). Profile is similar to the Wanawanga actuate stuff - not so parallel on the upright - but delivery was quick & I got a lot more for my money.

 

[Mouse Vader]

More catch up.

This the butt plu.. I mean end cap. Plastic with chromed (?) metal 'dome'. I originally got a couple of these when I was only thinking of making something to spin blades & not be so accurate but decided to try them anyway see what they looked like on. They are for 38mm 1 1/2" tube but are too tight a fit really the 'fins' get fatter towards the dome end so I skimmed them a little with the dremel & sanding drum. Nice firm but smooth push fit now which is useful (see later posts).


There was a bit more of gap between the dome & the body for me so I put a little bit of a chamfer on the tube's end. Leaves just enough room to get my thumbnail in to wiggle it out. They come with a plastic film on to protect the metal finish which was handy for marking on the T-track positions. You can see the T-track section nicely on that pic.


I put the 2 strips that go either side of the switch & wires on first. I marked on the position for the cut out for the switch with pencil & then pared away with a sharp modeling knife checking for fit often finished up with a fine small 1/2 round file. They fit nicely around the trimmed grommet with just the right spacing. With these in place I used my old template to mark on the position of the rest onto the dome film, indexing on the first two I'd applied.
Was too eager to finish so didn't take as many photo's as usual. I'll go more steady with the MK1b.

I stuck the T-track on with thin double sided tape which is slightly stretchy (branded as Ultratape). This seems the standard method on the RPF.
It sticks well but because of the stretch the T-track has a tendency to walk about so I'll probably have to redo this. Just noticed you can see this in the middle pic above, The lower grip has moved right round until it's in contact wiht the next one & this is just from resting on a hard surface. I have different double sided tape for gripping carpet so i'll try that & if that's no good it'll be glue - prob epoxy.

 

[XerocTheCreator]

Awesome build! Can't wait to see it finished!

 

[Mouse Vader]

Thanks. Have you not seen post #106 pg6 ? The photo's take a while to load so be patient. That said, there's some tweaking still to do. Or did you mean the whole schbang ? Long way to go on that.

 

[Mouse Vader]

Yet more catch up.

Took off the lugs on the inside of the clamp with the 'dremel' & diamond bit bur. I decided to use the Romans graflex clamp & bubble strip off my Romans MK1 Obiwan hero. I'd bought a couple of clamps from the Saber Armoury here In the UK for these stunt builds but liked the finish on them more than the Romans one - on that hilt. The Saber Armoury ones are also unstamped & I preferred the stamped one on the stunt. (Sorry Roman I'm not trying to dis your product at all, love that MK1, this is just personal preference & I preferred the look of yours on my build & the other on yours, is all. I don't anyone getting the wrong end of the stick here .)


The wires get a bit messy inside. More on that in later posts as it has significance.


Next up I noticed that the drive shaft (for golf sticks) was sticking out a bit too much now so trimmed the motor end down on the lathe, had to redo the grub screw holes to attach to the motor because of it.


All that got me to the place you see in post #106. Sorting out a blade to play with was next (I did run the blade from the RPM tests in it straight away but wanted to have a proper black stripe / fabric covered one for the 'photo shoot' / short vid).

 

[Mouse Vader]

A blade.

It was my intention to fabric up the blade I'd done for the RPM tests sometime so now was an ideal opportunity. Also an opportunity to test out a different method for putting it on that I'd thunked up a while ago. (If anyone wants me to do a video 'tutorial' for this method squeak up & I'll try fit one in sometime.)

Spray painted golf stick black (hence the mancky looking thumbnail in previous posts).


Next up - cut a piece of 'scotchlite' tape to just over length (there is a reason). Tape is 50mm wide so I put a taper on (see later).
This is unbranded stuff but I have compared it to the genuine 3M & it looks identical. In particular the backing fabric seems to be the same which was my main concern when it comes to testing blade to blade contact. It's also less than 1/5 the price.


The reason is that I wanted it slightly longer was to super glue the end of this strip (center-line) onto the end of the blade & make a pretty streamer to do rhythmic gymnastics with.


Next applying spray glue all along the strip. This is best done with the strip up against something (expendable & outdoors), in this case an old piece of fence lath in our woodpile. Please excuse the photo's not quite matching the description as I've one hand using the camera.


With one hand holding the base of the blade bring the tape up, with a little tension on it, to touch & stick to the blade base, Taking care not to get off center. It's easier done than said.


From there it's just a case of gently running an open palm down the length of the blade from tip to base then wrapping the fabric edges round with your fingers & you should have it nicely applied without wrinkles. I doubt that this is the method but who knows? I just don't have a suitably large flat surface for a rolling method.


At this point it was clear I got the width of fabric wrong some how as the black line was much too wide. So peeled that one off & cut another strip - used a piece of flat pse as a ruler.


To work out the width is easy (in theory) as it's just : pi x D . With Pi = 3.142 & D = diameter. I'd subtracted 9mm from the base measure & 3mm at the tip to give the black stripe. So this time I increased the width 3mm. Then repeated the above sequence only this time, as my bit of wood had still wet glue on it. I just sprayed the glue on with the strip hanging loose. Don't do that. It sticks OK to the tape but the webby stringy glue stream also curls around the edges of the tape & onto the good side making a mess.


You end up with a couple of 'ears' at the tip. Make sure you've put a good coat of glue here. Then press the bits of fabric together to make 'horns'. & trim with sharp scissors. Trim the base with a sharp knife (I used a 'stanley' type) using the base edge as a guide.


To remove the glue over spray peal off a blob, make a snotball with it & then dab this onto other areas. Slightly roll on the 'dab' & don't pull too quickly & it comes off fairly well, at least with what I used. It does seem to take off some glass beads but that doesn't seem to affect it's reflectiveness.


It was also obvious why I was out with the first try. I'd forgotten that the first 10 inches of my golf club shafts aren't tapered (grip area) & I cut a full length taper on my strip. As I'd done a wider strip this time the stripe was now too narrow right at the base & correct at 10 inches & near flush at the tip. I wasn't doing a third so I just trimmed the base the right width with a stanley knife.


And I'd also still got a couple of wrinkles as well - just to be 'authentic'.


The 3M type fabric looks quite different on the shaft to the other stuff I've used. It's clearly a round rod with silvery surface. The cheep Chinese stuff I put on my Solo's Hold blade is darker & much 'flatter' looking, slightly harder to focus on. (Retro-reflects a little better too.)
(3m type at the top.)

Now upto date.

 

[Mouse Vader]

What 24hrs on a hard flat surface does. This thing has some weight !

 

[vadermania]

What 24hrs on a hard flat surface does. This thing has some weight !

View attachment 1056496

And the answer is...SUPERGLUE

I‘ve tried so many types of glue on T-tracks in the past just to find out that SG is the best solution for ANH type Graflex sabers.

 

[Mouse Vader]

Me thinks you just saved me a whole bunch of time. Much obliged

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

Mouse Vader

So does the golf club just slide over the rod in the emitter? Is it just pressure fitted? If so, how do you see it doing in actual mock-dueling?

 

[Mouse Vader]

Golf stick is one I made way back post #9 pg1. Good picture there. Has a stud that fits into a socket in the driveshaft & retained by a grub screw - see last pic post #125 above. Golf sticks are lightweight & pretty much dead straight (ie true running). Even with the less powerful 310 motor you can swing it anyway you like & fast as you like without any issues other than a 'pause' if you stop a decent swing abruptly. thd9791's video's of what happens with full contact has already shown these are not dueling grade options. I'm only really using it here for 'show'.

The slip over type appear to be GRP or other composite & have grub screws. I've found no ref. anywhere as to how the wooden ANH blades attach other than John's sketch which doesn't match the collars seen on the Graffy stunts. I'm sure if I ran a stud into a socketed wooden blade, even with a collar attached, it would likely split the wood if used in dueling. It's something that certainly needs to be tested though. There's also no grub screws visible in the collars on any ANH shots that are of good enough quality. My personally favoured option is the 'stuffer' d/s. The wooden blade is a friction fit, no grub screw & it looks like a collar (see post#49 pg3 & #62 pg4 may also be of interest). It also fully supports the blade base & also simplifies blade manufacture. It allows a simple blade change on the Vader. In this pic it's clear the bade goes deep into the shroud, so far that no collar is visible so that any grub screw would not be accessible.

 

[Mouse Vader]

So does the golf club just slide over the rod in the emitter? Is it just pressure fitted?

Thanks PPP that's actually given me a very interesting idea for the Obiwan arrangement. Bed time for Bonzo here I'll be in touch.

edit: Or not. Been reviewing it today & there's a potential issue, but I'm following it up on a slightly dif, tack. Not giving up yet.

 

[Mouse Vader]

Re-done the T-track. with super glue seems to hold OK. Time will tell. As I had the kitchen scales out the other day as well I weighted it. 1 lb 10oz (700grm) with center of gravity right on the front edge of the clamp. Really nice heft.


As the groove in the T-track wasn't the same radius as tube the tape was only in contact on the edges - as will be the case using superglue but that's doing a much better job.

 

[Mouse Vader]

I've been thinking of adding the Obiwan to this project for a while, as is an ANH saber but a likely set up has eluded me, until PPP's post. The problem I've been wrestling with is wooden blade attachment. Pushing a steel rod into a hole in the blade with enough friction to keep it in place and spin it is just asking for it to split as far as I can see. Even with a collar there's not enough enough depth in the emitter for a stuffer like on my graffy. I can find no evidence for a grub screw in a 'nipple' or d/s arrangement similar to what I've been using with the golf stick (no evidence for grub screws there either on original with wooden blades).
The idea I came up with from PPP's post is a combination of both extended d/s & stuffer. Or short stuffer.

Problems were: nothing to stop the motor / d/s being pushed back when fitting or dragging the same forward once fitted, if I follow Jon Bunker's sketch & just have it fixed with paper wedges. Secondly the roller bearing I was thinking of using in the emitter is being retained by the emitter faceplate which would have to be a separate piece attached with the 2 grub screws. Again I can find no evidence for that as I can't find any pictures from ANH era with such grub screws showing. Going back over all my reference material to refresh my memory I turned up a comment from Brandon Alinger about the ROTJ 'V2' :

"The saber contains a chamber where the motor once was, and you can see the threaded holes where it mounted."

This prop has undergone extraordinary scrutiny & if such holes were evident they'd be have been seen by now. The only place left has to be hidden under the graflex clamp which I understand is the general consensus. It also tells of two things. 1) the motor/gearbox was fixed in position 2) where this is in the hilt.
I also remembered PoopaPapaPalps mentioning to me he had tried an experiment using a small bearing in the emitter to support an extended d/s as a blade/nipple mount. Such bearing being the same diam. as the 'nipple'. This finally lead me to come up with the idea that it's the nipple that's the thing throwing every one off as Brandon's comments on the nipple are:

" When I first saw the saber collars on the real blades, my immediate thought was -- the nipple on the hilt is one of those. But when I looked, they are different. The nipple on the Luke saber is a two-step thing. The collars on the existing saber blades don't have that step in them. It's also quite likely IMO that the existing blades are from ROJ only, possibly ESB, and most likely not from ANH."

I note also that none of the collars in any of the ANH era pictures are 'stepped' either.

This lead me to this arrangement :

This is a sketch with direct measure from my Solo's Hold V2, inc switch position. There is still plenty of room forward of the motor mounting screws for a longer (Marklin) motor & still have the rear clearing the switch box & for the clamp to cover them. It's also almost identical to what PoopaPapaPalps had already come up with for his 'V2' cast hilt project. He is retaining the current nipple though. I'm using that space to fit the wooden blade with long collar as seen in my back of envelope sketches.

But there is other room for maneuver.

Brandon has stated post # 243 pg 13 :
Is Darth Vader's saber blade painted (ANH) & blade flexing.

"It's been some time since I disassembled the prop, but I'm pretty certain the nipple and the emitter are one single piece - this is evidenced by looking at the shaft that runs through it -- there are no breaks in that shaft."

Notice he's not 100% as he's relying on memory & others have expressed doubt's that his memory is right (eg. post #239 pg12 ) Is Darth Vader's saber blade painted (ANH) & blade flexing.

He also has this to say (same post & thread):

"If the footage truly shows the nipple moving and not the emitter face, it must be a different emitter, at least, to this one."

If Brandon is right then it's current emitter is a later addition as NO-one can come up with any scenario that permits a 'solid' nipple/emitter to show a spinning blade & static emitter as seen on screen - post # 155 pg8 & # 166 pg9. Not everyone agrees that this footage is of sufficient quality. I'll explore that further when I do this hilt.

Is Darth Vader's saber blade painted (ANH) & blade flexing.

Thanks for sharing your theories. Let's go easy on Brandon. He owns the darned thing and has done extensive work documenting these films. He can't share everything, nor does he have to. There is obviously a gap in our V2 knowledge about the nipple. Either Brandon was mistaken or we are, and...

www.therpf.com

If the ROTJ emitter is a replacement then there's still a chance my envelope sketch emitter arrangement can work (as the motor moving problem is solved). I'll be doing my Obiwan hilt with a separate emitter so that I can make several sorts & change them over. It also makes machining the whole thing easier which is why PPP is also going with a separate emitter.

 

[Mouse Vader]

Now I've got the T-track sorted (thanks Vadermania) I thought I'd share some observations on how this thing assembles. My initial idea was that the switch would be such a pain in the ass that it would have to be the 1st thing to fit & then not removed. I would then feed in the wires through the wire hole & connect up to the switch with enough wire length to clear the front of the hilt where I'd connect to the motor via the buck voltage converter. Then slide in the motor/core until it hit the switch box/ line up with the button/glass eye holes, fit them & then finish with the end cap. Doing it like this took the best part of 40mins as when sliding the core in, the buck converter & long wires would snag on the switch box & I'd have to fish about from the pommel with a small screwdriver to get them past it. Indeed I only succeeded with this method once I removed the buck converter & placed it between the incoming wires & the switch. Of course I think any voltage regulation on the original would be part of the battery pack. See Vaders pack here (Kurtyboy found this for me from the SW archives & remeber this is also likely to power the lights on this life support stuff).

Even though the internal switch box is a problematic part fitting & removing it is no bother. After much trial & error the easiest assembly method is to first have the incoming wire, buck converter & switch all joined up with the wires going full length down the hilt & out the front to the motor/ core but not have the switch fitted to the hilt/tube. Then push in the core in until it's close to the switch position & then fit the switch. This makes getting all the wires past the switch box much easier. All that then remains is to push all the wires & buck into the pommel & fit the end cap. I'm still debating whether to keep the buck in the hilt or remove it to a new battery pack.

The same result can be obtained if the core were inserted in the pommel to just past the switch position etc. Either way one thing is clear - that pommel access is important. Even if the core were made shorter feeding in from the front, wires will still have the tendency to hang up on the switch if it's fitted & if not fitted will have to be - from the pommel end. This means that what ever is used for the end cap, be it off the shelf or custom made, it needs to be removable. I can't believe for one moment that once assembled they would think they'd never need to go back inside.

So what is the end cap they used? When I started this thread the only hint I had was from this ref. pic & it looked metallic & slightly domed. possibly flat so I felt that what I found met my needs well.

I have since found these two views.

Even though the latter is post ANH it is the demotorised stunt graffy the first pic is a still from the duel. There's some circular feature slap bang in the center of the pommel end cap in both pic's. Which has got me thinking. Is it (& possibly the 'bearing' grub screw too) a redundant 'development' feature. I'm referring here to Jon Bunkers sketch. (See pdf at end of post.) Is what he remembers seeing, something in the process of development?
There is no wire exit from the side in his sketch but there is a jack plug in the pommel. If the jack plug proved to be hard to get the wires up Mark H's sleeve or too obvious on film then the quick fix is a hole drilled in the side in the place we see. Having played about with this thing It's clear to me that the side wire is the much better option. Hence the circular feature in the above pic's may well be a redundant jack plug socket.

It has always struck me that the use of paper wedges to hold the motor in place as a temporary fix & It's been obvious to me from the start that this saber needs a core/sleeve & that that is what is present. If they then decided to fix the motor to this core as they did with the 'V2' (& as I've done) & shortened the bearing grub screw so the whole core can slide in & out, as I have it, you'll end up with a reduntant grub screw hole in the tube. I've not had time to take a comparision photo for long & short grub screw vs the Promo picture. I'll do that next post.

 

[Mouse Vader]

I've been trying to take some comparison photos for the grub screw but it's proving harder than I expected. Here the top one is the short grub screw top, long screw middle & promo photo bottom. I had to tilt my hilt more to try & get the light to hit the screw hole in the same way & I've the camera much closer than Terry O'neill had. It looks like the long screw is the closer match but because I've not matched lighting, hilt angle & also had to blur filter to get my image de-focused to the same extent, this is really not a proper comparison going on.

I was also holding it with one and & photographing with the camera in other & because the hilt is heavy-ish & I'm holding onto the end it was starting to cramp my forearm after a while. I noticed today that the hilt resting on our settee was actually at a good angle so was able to get a half decent 'distance' shot. Lighting is still out but this was more for angle than anything. I also only used the smallest amount of blur available & that is bordering on too much. I adjusted exposure when taking it to try & match the light/shadow in the emitter/shroud trying to see how that bearing looks & that's looking promising. The grub screw hole is also looking closer too & this is the short grub screw. I'm more hopeful of getting a good comparison now I don't have to hold the hilt to take a picture & all I need to do is get the lighting right. (note that the promo graflex clamp lettering means it's back to front from how this clamp is usually seen on a proper flash tube. It is also slightly rotated ie. not in line with the red button & further forward than mine/in BTS pictures.)

Also found a slightly better resolution pic of the pommel but this hasn't really helped. Notice how much reflective surface has been lost in the middle of these blades from practice.

 

[Mouse Vader]

As I'm going to be doing more comparisons with the promo shot I thought I'd see what the MK2 looks like with a black nose. Well it looks like this.

The story most touted around is that the stunt graffy was pressed into service as Vader's hilt in the duel when problems occurred with his own & that the nose was painted black to resemble the 'MPP' type he had. He is seen using it. As I'm acquainted with '70's paint technology I have always found this painting scenario dubious. From my own experience you'd be lucky for paint to dry (enough to handle & not just touch dry) in 12hrs & more likely 24hrs. Hence I haven't used paint. This is wide black PVC tape. It took me about 10 min to do inc. finding where I'd put the tape. It reflects light in exactly the same way you see in all the pictures there are of it & gives the same bare metal edge to the 'shroud'. It would also be very easily replaced if damaged.

Actually I don't much care for the black nose look so I'll be pealing this off once I've done the comparison pictures.

 

[thd9791]

They wrapped Gaffer's tape around the nose of the "pipe" stunt for ROTJ! You can still see a couple pieces peeling off today (because they were stupid and used like 1" diameter tape to cover the whole area

Also here are some other shots of what I'm pretty sure is the ANH motorized stunt, after ANH

 

[Mouse Vader]

Thanks thd. I'd forgotten about the pipe stunt tape. The stuff I've used is sold in builders merchants to join damp proof course plastic sheets etc. which what I had it for. It's exactly the same as electrical insulation tape only wider (75mm/3"). There are all sorts of widths available so I wonder if it may also be what was used on the pipe stunt but impossible to tell from gaffer tape in shots like those.

Thanks very much for that last but one photo of Dave P, Mark H & Peter D, I've a copy on file but at worse resolution. What's really got my attention is that Dave P has the graffy stunt. You can just make out there's something in the middle of the end cap like the other shots but more importantly it still has it's light switch & he's holding it just like he holds his own 'Vader' stunt in the duel - ie. by the shroud/blade. Is this just because it's comfortable for him? His hands were quite large right? What a red herring that's been if so. But it then begs the question, why does he hold the black nose graffy normally in the dual?

Thinking out loud here & what I was postulating earlier about a jack plug being replaced by the side wires. This picture has the light switch but no wires. I've seen Dave P in that outfit in other pictures I'll have a check, it sure would be helpful to know when it was taken.

Your last picture also there is a dark mark just where the wires hole should be. I have some screen grabs from the same scene (?) showing the pommel with a circular patch. (Peter Diamond is the same track suit as your second last pic.)

A lot to think about here...

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

That's not David Prowse in the track suit, it's Bob Anderson.