Am I REALLY the only one disappointed with TFA?

IMO it wouldn't be any lamer than Rey having so much Force ability out of nowhere in TFA.

The Force is already known to be capable of so much mind-altering stuff that wiping or replacing a memory doesn't exactly seem like a big stretch. Heck, real 21st-century technology is starting to see those possibilities off in the distance right now, without any Force magic.



As for the general public moving on from TFA with little impact after one viewing - I think it would have been the same result if ANH had been released for the first time today. It isn't 1977 anymore. Movies & pop culture are in a very different place now.

I don't know why everyone has such an issue with Rey figuring out the Force... They set up enough reasoning for it.

I mean in Star Wars Luke gets blasted by the training remote, Ben puts a mask over his face, says "Feel it", and completely while blind, Luke blocks 3 (?) shots his first try.

Ben Kenobi: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
Luke Skywalker: You mean it controls your actions?
Kenobi: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

What a Mary Sue (I blame Max Landis for people throwing that around)

Rey is told by Maz to close her eyes and feel it... when she does...

Kylo tries to get into her head and while fighting him off, finds she can attack him, read HIS thoughts....

Next up she tries to get into a Stormtrooper's head, fails, concentrates, succeeds.

"She's strong in the force, stronger than she knows"

She'll turn out to be a Kenobi, stronger than Vader... and so in the big picture, Young Ben being surprised how powerful Anakin was, will then have a grand daughter more powerful then Vader.
 
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It all seems so unearned and when there is no penalty to pay to get there you cannot relate.
I cannot relate to being born magic. Even if they explain it later it's a narrative fail to connect for me now.
Luke's skills were right up there with luck at first. MaRey Sue is freekin off the charts already.
 
To be fair, we didn't really know what Luke's abilities were. We saw him deflect three blaster bolts. Then we saw him "use the Force" instead of his computer to make a shot on the Death Star that was "one in a million" (and which we'd already seen couldn't be done with the aid of a targeting computer). Oh, and we saw Vader say "The Force is strong with this one..." Luke also mentions bullseying womprats in his T-16 back home, which was later interpreted to be evidence of Force abilities or something, but it's said in passing and never really explored within the film.

How is any of that "earned"? For that matter, how is it any more earned than Rey's apparent abilities?

All I see with Rey is that she's able to do some stuff without understanding it really. She's clearly strong in the Force. Probably as strong as Luke, or maybe stronger. She doesn't understand her power, and she's not really in all that great control of it.

But both of them had equal "earned" abilities from what we saw in their respective first outings.

Oh, and this all says nothing of Anakin the Messiah who has stronger midichlorians than even Master Yoda, and who apparently can do what LITERALLY NO OTHER HUMAN CAN DO in flying in the pod race, at the age of NINE, all because "Well, the Force, duh." And then he goes on to pilot a starfighter in the Battle of Naboo, blow up a Trade Federation droid control ship through dumb luck (or the Force), and somehow survive it all, without any benefit of training. Not even a single session with Qui-Gon saying "Close your eyes and feel the Force" like the other two had.


They're all powerful. It's weird an unexplained and hereditary, as we later learn (except Anakin, whose Force sensitivity could have been manipulated somehow or something). They all pull off amazing feats through the use of the Force in their first, untrained outings.

That's the point. They're powerful for a reason within the narrative, not just as a plot solution.

Mary Sue/Marty Stew/Gary Stew characters usually exist as a form of wish fulfillment for the author (and often serve as the representative of the author). Their powers usually manifest in some "Get out of trouble free" way, kind of like Batman's shark repellent or James Bond's gadget that was given to him by Q which serves no purpose other than to get him out of this exact situation.

Rey is powerful because it's part of her backstory, her identity, all of which has been created as a mystery (to us, the audience). Is she more powerful than Vader? Or Luke? Or Obi-Wan? It's unclear. We don't know the extent or limitations of her power because we know next to nothing about her.

Look, I agree that Rey's ability with the Force is surprisingly strong. I think that's done on purpose to lampshade that there's something mysterious and special about her, which will be explained later. I'd also venture that we'll discover that Rey has some inner flaw or weakness as well that she will have to overcome, since, you know, that's a pretty classic part of the hero's journey.

None of that = Mary Sue. Merely being powerful does not = Mary Sue. Being powerful for no reason other than wanting to have a powerful character who can do anything = Mary Sue. But that's not what's happening here.


If you just don't like the movie, I mean, cool, it's art, and art's subjective. But if you're gonna claim that she's a Mary Sue, you're either missing what's going on, or intentionally ignoring it. Either way, the claim is wrong on the facts.

IT COULD END UP BEING PROVEN TRUE LATER IN THE SERIES. I will grant you that, certainly. If the writers of the next two films don't effectively explain her extraordinary abilities, show her struggle with them, etc., then yeah, she could arguably be called a Mary Sue. But not in this film. In this film she's a hero with a mysterious backstory. That's it.
 
It all seems so unearned and when there is no penalty to pay to get there you cannot relate.
I cannot relate to being born magic. Even if they explain it later it's a narrative fail to connect for me now.
Luke's skills were right up there with luck at first. MaRey Sue is freekin off the charts already.

QFT!

Her absurd facility with the Force came with no training, no learning curve, no sacrifice, no failure, no nothin'. MaRey's mantra as she rollicked through the adventure was a giddy, "I don't know how I did that! I don't know how I did that!".

I totally bought Luke's gradual struggle to learn the ways of the Force in the OT. MaRey? Don't buy it for a second. And no bullschit explanation in a film 2 years later will remedy that.

The Wook
 
Luke hit a target a COMPUTER failed to hit, and blew up the Death Star, on only his second time using the force... with no guidance except "use it".

And who cares if Rey was good at everything from the start... we don't always need a bumbling hero who comes into their own.

This Mary Sue crap is so stupid.

John Maclean was a Mary Sue in Die Hard... and much like Rey, he turned his back on "The call to adventure". The one action movie where the action star is constantly trying to stay out of it and call the police for help.

This was a nice change... Sometimes the hero is already a hero... just a flawed one.
 
To be fair, we didn't really know what Luke's abilities were. We saw him deflect three blaster bolts. Then we saw him "use the Force" instead of his computer to make a shot on the Death Star that was "one in a million" (and which we'd already seen couldn't be done with the aid of a targeting computer). Oh, and we saw Vader say "The Force is strong with this one..." Luke also mentions bullseying womprats in his T-16 back home, which was later interpreted to be evidence of Force abilities or something, but it's said in passing and never really explored within the film.

How is any of that "earned"? For that matter, how is it any more earned than Rey's apparent abilities?

All I see with Rey is that she's able to do some stuff without understanding it really. She's clearly strong in the Force. Probably as strong as Luke, or maybe stronger. She doesn't understand her power, and she's not really in all that great control of it.

But both of them had equal "earned" abilities from what we saw in their respective first outings.

Oh, and this all says nothing of Anakin the Messiah who has stronger midichlorians than even Master Yoda, and who apparently can do what LITERALLY NO OTHER HUMAN CAN DO in flying in the pod race, at the age of NINE, all because "Well, the Force, duh." And then he goes on to pilot a starfighter in the Battle of Naboo, blow up a Trade Federation droid control ship through dumb luck (or the Force), and somehow survive it all, without any benefit of training. Not even a single session with Qui-Gon saying "Close your eyes and feel the Force" like the other two had.


They're all powerful. It's weird an unexplained and hereditary, as we later learn (except Anakin, whose Force sensitivity could have been manipulated somehow or something). They all pull off amazing feats through the use of the Force in their first, untrained outings.

That's the point. They're powerful for a reason within the narrative, not just as a plot solution.

Mary Sue/Marty Stew/Gary Stew characters usually exist as a form of wish fulfillment for the author (and often serve as the representative of the author). Their powers usually manifest in some "Get out of trouble free" way, kind of like Batman's shark repellent or James Bond's gadget that was given to him by Q which serves no purpose other than to get him out of this exact situation.

Rey is powerful because it's part of her backstory, her identity, all of which has been created as a mystery (to us, the audience). Is she more powerful than Vader? Or Luke? Or Obi-Wan? It's unclear. We don't know the extent or limitations of her power because we know next to nothing about her.

Look, I agree that Rey's ability with the Force is surprisingly strong. I think that's done on purpose to lampshade that there's something mysterious and special about her, which will be explained later. I'd also venture that we'll discover that Rey has some inner flaw or weakness as well that she will have to overcome, since, you know, that's a pretty classic part of the hero's journey.

None of that = Mary Sue. Merely being powerful does not = Mary Sue. Being powerful for no reason other than wanting to have a powerful character who can do anything = Mary Sue. But that's not what's happening here.


If you just don't like the movie, I mean, cool, it's art, and art's subjective. But if you're gonna claim that she's a Mary Sue, you're either missing what's going on, or intentionally ignoring it. Either way, the claim is wrong on the facts.

IT COULD END UP BEING PROVEN TRUE LATER IN THE SERIES. I will grant you that, certainly. If the writers of the next two films don't effectively explain her extraordinary abilities, show her struggle with them, etc., then yeah, she could arguably be called a Mary Sue. But not in this film. In this film she's a hero with a mysterious backstory. That's it.

The definition according to fanlor dot org. Sounds like MaRey to me, Dan.

"A character may be judged Mary Sue if she is competent in too many areas, is physically attractive, and/or is viewed as admirable by other sympathetic characters."
 
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The definition according to fanlor dot org. Sounds like MaRey to me, Dan.

"A character may be judged Mary Sue if she is competent in too many areas, is physically attractive, and/or is viewed as admirable by other sympathetic characters."

Well, the wikipedia entry on the subject differs and offers a more nuanced assessment of the trope.

Check it out. Or don't. It's still incorrect to tar Rey with the Mary Sue label, especially at this point in the trilogy. I mean, *****, you might as well say that Frodo is a Gary Stew because he's the only one who can handle the Ring, and he comes from humble beginnings. Regardless, if she is a Mary Sue, then she's one of a long line of such characters in the Star Wars franchise, including Luke and Anakin both. Level your criticism at them while you're at it.
 
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To be fair, we didn't really know what Luke's abilities were. We saw him deflect three blaster bolts. Then we saw him "use the Force" instead of his computer to make a shot on the Death Star that was "one in a million" (and which we'd already seen couldn't be done with the aid of a targeting computer). Oh, and we saw Vader say "The Force is strong with this one..." Luke also mentions bullseying womprats in his T-16 back home, which was later interpreted to be evidence of Force abilities or something, but it's said in passing and never really explored within the film.

How is any of that "earned"? For that matter, how is it any more earned than Rey's apparent abilities?


Totally missed this response! yeah, I'm on the same page with you. Buncha complainers.

Weird that haters keep saying it's a rehash of ANH, but then the filmmakers make the lead completely different than Luke (not a whiner... doesn't WANT the adventure), and then people keep saying "Well she should have been more like Luke! Look at how Luke did everything!"

:facepalm

If anything this is a prodigy story, where everyone wants the prodigy to solve their problems, but that's not the prodigy's main concern.

"I need to go back to Jakku!"

"I'm waiting for my family!"

"I'm never touching that again!" (lightsaber)

Right until her fight with Kylo, she's on the run from any responsibility.

It's not a "Diamond in the rough to a King" story...
 
"A character may be judged Mary Sue if she is competent in too many areas, is physically attractive, and/or is viewed as admirable by other sympathetic characters."

I know REAL PEOPLE that that definition applies to...
 
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One quick point.

As I've said many times, it's totally fine to not like the film. Art is subjective. Not everybody likes everything. You don't really need a reason why you don't like something. Sometimes it just...doesn't appeal to you.

I don't much care for Eric Clapton's music (Layla is an exception, but that's due entirely to Duane Allman's slide guitar solo). But I certainly wouldn't complain about, say, how I don't like his work because it's derivative and unoriginal, while failing to level the same criticism at, say, the Rolling Stones, when both are pretty seriously blues influenced. It's enough that I just...eh...don't really like it that much. Just doesn't do it for me.

If TFA just didn't do it for you, cool. Well, not cool; it's actually a bummer if you wanted to like it, but don't go claiming it's because Rey's a Mary Sue when the entire franchise is about The Adventures of A Family Of Mary Sues.
 
I still think Rey is someone entirely unique in our current film and animation experience of what we have come to know as a Force user. People say that the Rey is strong in the Force and it is her's to command. I think instead the Force is strong through Rey and is using her as a conduit. I think that might be an important distinction and makes her journey as a character even more interesting if true.
 
I still think Rey is someone entirely unique in our current film and animation experience of what we have come to know as a Force user. People say that the Rey is strong in the Force and it is her's to command. I think instead the Force is strong through Rey and is using her as a conduit. I think that might be an important distinction and makes her journey as a character even more interesting if true.

That would explain a lot, I agree, Bryan.

However, I disagree with you that it makes her more interesting. To me, it makes her unrelatable and uninteresting. It takes human frailty out of the story, which causes me to lose interest fast.

The Wook
 
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That would explain a lot, I agree, Bryan.

However, I disagree with you that it makes her more interesting. To me, it makes her unrelatable and uninteresting.

The Wook

Well, that depends and remains to be seen. If it has any veracity, it will be incumbent on Rian Johnson to deliver on that story. And then how it is executed. We know that JJ and Kasdan know who Rey's parents are and what her basic backstory is so TFA was made and more importantly edited to obfuscate that to a high degree. There were some scenes and dialogue filmed and edited out or appear in the novel that would have hinted more decisively but I think they away from too much intel reveal to not paint themselves into a corner.
 
Luke inexplicably hit a target better than a computer . . . and it was established that he's been flying around hitting targets in his speeder since he was a kid.

I don't see how that equates to Rey besting a Sith (from the Skywalker line, no less) in lightsaber combat on the first time she tried waving one around.

We're talking about this:
During ANH, on the way to Alderaan. Luke is practicing with the saber & training droid in the Falcon's hold. Obi-Wan is saying nothing instead of giving advice. Han says his "Hokey religions & ancient weapons" line.
Then Count Dooku or Darth Maul or somebody appears, right there in the Falcon's hold! What are they to do? But Luke takes care of it. He proceeds to kick the Sith Lord's butt with the lightsaber & put him on the ground. Han & Chewie stand there with mouths agape. Obi-Wan sits there stroking his beard & saying nothing, just smiling.





The bottom line is this:

New generations of people have been watching Luke discover his Force powers for the last 40 years and accepted it as presented.
Leia starts having Force sense with basically zero training at the end of ESB. Same thing.
Anakin flies his pod racer crazy-well for his age and audiences accept it. Same with his gradual Jedi/Sith skills piling up for the next two movies. (And it's not because everyone liked the PT's drama & handling of Anakin so much that they wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt. Especially young Anakin in TPM.)


Then TFA comes out. Rey's rapid-fire acquisition of skills/abilities might be the single most consistent complaint about any of the new characters, from audiences & reviewers alike. Evidently something didn't go over quite right with people this time.
 
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Kylo Ren and Snoke aren't Sith, they are also something new that we haven't seen before in regards to users if the Dark Side. I'm not sure what that means about their abilities but it's worth noting.
 
Luke grew up on a farm. Gets his ass handed to him by a sandperson.

Rey grew up around scavengers and thieves. Fought on a daily basis. We see one day of her life and she's attacked by two guys (and fights them using a melee weapon... much like a saber).. she has to free BB-8 by another scavenger... she chases and beats down Finn (with a melee weapon). She doesn't react to any of this with any surprise. Just another day in a crappy, fight or flight existence.

Again, people want different than ANH... but when the change the hero from a whiny, impatient, helpless farm boy, to a patient, self preserving, head strong scavenger-girl, people get all "She's not like how Luke was...."
 
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Luke grew up on a farm. Gets his ass handed to him by a sandperson.

Rey grew up around scavengers and thieves. Fought on a daily basis. We see one day of her life and she's attacked by two guys (using a melee weapon... much like a saber).. she has to free BB-8 by another scavenger... she chases and beats down Finn (with a melee weapon). She doesn't react to any of this with any surprise. Just another day in a crappy, fight or flight existence.

Again, people want different than ANH... but when the change the hero from a whiny, impatient, helpless farm boy, to a patient, self preserving, head strong scavenger-girl, people get all "She's not like how Luke was...."

For sure she certainly was much more of a capable and tested survivor then Luke who seemed almost coddled and naive.
 
For sure she certainly was much more of a capable and tested survivor then Luke who seemed almost coddled and naive.

Bryancd, and NeoRutty, these are merely cosmetic changes. The fact remains that in both ANH/ESB and TFA we have a parent-less teenager on a rugged sandy planet, who has the Force but doesn't know it, who acquires a droid containing secret information that an agent of the rebellion/resistance placed there, who meets an old man who tells the teenager about the Force, who goes off on a space adventure with the old man in the millennium falcon, who meets a 900 year old sage and experiences a scary Force-dream below ground, who witnesses the old man get murdered a red lightsaber by an intimate relation of the old man's who wears a black helmet and black cape and uses the dark side of the Force, et cetera, et cetara.

TFA is a lazy, uninspired, egregious and cynical ripoff of George's original trilogy story. These cosmetic distinctions you point to are entirely superficial, and are not fooling anybody.

The Wook
 
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Fair point, about Luke being a bit naive. I wouldn't go so far as to call him "coddled" (compare his life growing up to Princess Leia's.) But Luke was inexperienced with the wrong side of the tracks. Rey is not.

I think ultimately a lot depends on who Rey's parents are. Making her a Skywalker would do a lot to excuse the TFA gripes. Making her a Kenobi would be better than nothing but it doesn't excuse the problem as well as a Skywalker. Although IMO that might make a better story overall.


I also agree with the comment that Rey needs some kind of character flaw or development problem to overcome. That was a problem with TFA that went beyond the Force issues. She was just too perfect right out of the gate.
 
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