Am I REALLY the only one disappointed with TFA?

[The Wook]

Fair point, about Luke being a bit naive. I wouldn't go so far as to call him "coddled" (compare his life growing up to Princess Leia's.) But Luke was inexperienced with the wrong side of the tracks. Rey is not.

I think ultimately a lot depends on who Rey's parents are. Making her a Skywalker would do a lot to excuse the TFA gripes. Making her a Kenobi would be better than nothing but it doesn't excuse the problem as well as a Skywalker. Although IMO that might make a better story overall.


I also agree with the comment that Rey needs some kind of character flaw or development problem to overcome. That was a problem with TFA that went beyond the Force issues. She was just too perfect right out of the gate.

But Geez, if they make her Luke's daughter, that's not a very good reflection on Luke. What, he starts a Jedi Academy, he loses his star pupil (who happens to be his nephew and the son of his best friend) to the Dark Side, dumps his daughter off on a dangerous planet to fend for herself, and goes into hiding on a giant rock in the middle of the ocean of some remote planet?? God, I hope she's not his daughter.

And besides that, what kind of a Jedi would he be if he broke the Jedi code by having a child?! They had better not make MaRey Obi Wan's granddaughter, because he is the purest character in the whole dang storyline, and I'd hate to think he broke the code and sired a child.

The Wook

 

[NeoRutty]

Bryancd, and @NeoRutty, these are merely cosmetic changes. The fact remains that in both ANH/ESB and TFA we have a parent-less teenager on a rugged sandy planet, who has the Force but doesn't know it, who acquires a droid containing secret information that an agent of the rebellion/resistance placed there, who meets an old man who tells the teenager about the Force, who goes off on a space adventure with the old man in the millennium falcon, who meets a 900 year old sage and experiences a scary Force-dream below ground, who witnesses the old man get murdered a red lightsaber by an intimate relation of the old man's who wears a black helmet and black cape and uses the dark side of the Force, et cetera, et cetara.

TFA is a lazy, uninspired, egregious and cynical ripoff of George's original trilogy story. These cosmetic distinctions you point to are entirely superficial, and are not fooling anybody.

The Wook

Georges story is a rip off. It's maybe the greatest rip-off ever, but it's a rip-off.

There's a hero, who gets the call to adventure, makes a decision to go, crosses the threshold, meets the B characters, fun and games, lowest point, evil guys close in, hero triumphant.

Blah blah. It's all the same friggin story.

That's how the entertainment industry works.

was it a remake and rehash? Absolutely. Was I entertained? hell yes!

I only take issue with the stupid reasons people are saying "it's bad", when there are just as stupid things going on in the original trilogy.

 

[Bryancd]

And besides that, what kind of a Jedi would he be if he broke the Jedi code by having a child?!

Luke would be the exact kind of Jedi I would expect at the end of ROTJ, where instead of destroying the Sith, he threw down his saber and relied on the love of his father to save him. Luke believed that love and attachment, not the dogma of the Jedi, was his path. It's all over ESB and ROTJ, how did you miss that? You think Luke was going to throw on some robes, fire up a temple, and make all the mistakes his predecessors made?

 

[NeoRutty]

I also agree with the comment that Rey needs some kind of character flaw or development problem to overcome.

Rey's thing to overcome is that she chose to ignore the call to adventure... which is not the norm in popcorn flick narrative.

Unlike Luke who was ready to run head first into adventure, Rey doesn't want it. She doesn't want to be a hero, she only wants her family.

When Luke found he had nothing left, he followed Obi Wan...

When Rey is called and finds she has no one left ("who ever you're waiting for isn't coming back for you") - she still chooses not to go. She's only in it cuz Kylo Ren dragged her into it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rey isn't looking to be trained. She'll get Luke and then want out... Luke will be trying to get her to train as a Jedi.

- - - Updated - - -

Luke would be the exact kind of Jedi I would expect at the end of ROTJ, where instead of destroying the Sith, he threw down his saber and relied on the love of his father to save him. Luke believed that love and attachment, not the dogma of the Jedi, was his path. It's all over ESB and ROTJ, how did you miss that? You think Luke was going to throw on some robes, fire up a temple, and make all the mistakes his predecessors made?

Yeah Luke isn't going to follow Old rules of an outdated religion. Luke is more "Spiritual" than "Religious" about the force.

Besides, she's Obi's granddaughter, heh.

 

[Solo4114]

Remind me again what Luke's flaw was in ANH? What was the thing he had to overcome?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[joshvanrad]

Remind me again what Luke's flaw was in ANH? What was the thing he had to overcome?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He uh... well, uhm... He...

He was too short to be a stormtrooper!

 

[The Wook]

Luke would be the exact kind of Jedi I would expect at the end of ROTJ, where instead of destroying the Sith, he threw down his saber and relied on the love of his father to save him. Luke believed that love and attachment, not the dogma of the Jedi, was his path. It's all over ESB and ROTJ, how did you miss that? You think Luke was going to throw on some robes, fire up a temple, and make all the mistakes his predecessors made?

The fatal flaw of the Jedi Order was not its adherence to chastity, but its arrogance.

The Wook

 

[The Wook]

Remind me again what Luke's flaw was in ANH? What was the thing he had to overcome?

He had many: fear, insecurity, ignorance, naivete, arrogance, jealousy, lust, irresponsibility, cynicism, sloth, narcissism, and whiny-ness.

The Wook

 

[NeoRutty]

He uh... well, uhm... He...

He was too short to be a stormtrooper!

Yeah Luke's flaw really only compounded in Empire when Yoda got all "He' short. Too short to begin the training."

But really, Luke's restless and impatient flaw is only really evident because of Empire. If Star Wars was a standalone, it wouldn't have been much of a thing.

It's not as bad as Marty's out of nowehere flaw in the BTTF sequel (ohhhh don't call him CHICKEN!), but it really was a flaw established later...

 

[Bryancd]

The fatal flaw of the Jedi Order was not its adherence to chastity, but its arrogance.

The Wook

So you think the character as presented in the OT would have begun the Jedi Order anew with the same dogma? Even Anakin knew love and attachment were important. Didn't end well for him but the Force never intended the Jedi to be celibate monks at the end of ROTJ.

 

[NeoRutty]

He had many: fear, insecurity, ignorance, naivete, arrogance, jealousy, lust, irresponsibility, cynicism, sloth, narcissism, and whiny-ness.

The Wook

Well he didn't overcome any of those, but succeeded in spite of... which actually makes him a weak hero.

Which is why most kids wanted to be Han... he overcame his flaw (only thinking about himself)

Luke's arc worked only because it was spread over the next 2 movies... As a kid I only started wanting to be Luke after Jedi.

But man, you should see my 14 year old's bedroom... The girl who for her entire life was "I hate Star Wars" has a shrine to Rey.

I'm glad she has a hero to look up to.

 

[batguy]

Luke's impatience & lack of focus on the present might not have been spelled out until ESB. But it certainly didn't feel unnaturally tacked on during ESB either. Luke's "whiny" stuff in ANH rang of that.

Really though, Luke just generally didn't start out as the fully-formed butt-kicking force of nature that Rey was in TFA. Not mentally/emotionally. That is why if we put aside the Force stuff and just examine him on personality alone, Finn might be a closer TFA analogue to ANH Luke.

 

[Bryancd]

I think the general point is that Rey, Fin, Poe, and Kylo are entirely unique to the films. Of course the Heroes Journey they embark on is littered with the same Cambell'ian tropes.

 

[The Wook]

The Force never intended the Jedi to be celibate monks at the end of ROTJ.

You're quite the mind-reader, Bryan.

So certain are you of the Force's intentions. Hmmmm??

The Wook

 

[Bryancd]

You're quite the mind-reader, Bryan.

So certain are you of the Force's intentions. Hmmmm??

The Wook

Ha! Well, again in regards to a narrative through line, Luke's journey to the end of ROTJ and his relationship to the Force is entirely about love. He even defies his teacher to try and save his friends. He turns away from the dogma at that point and the ROTJ really brings that home at the end with him pleading to his father to save him, not even trying to fight back after touching the Dark Side and turning away. That's the story GL told. When given the opportunity to go back and do the PT, he started off with Qui-gon, a Jedi who also had a very different view of the Force then the Jedi Council. We watch the Jedi in their ivory tower completely fail over the course of three films. Sure, their arrogance was a major problem and so was their relation with the Force. If they had let Anakin be in love, go back and save his Mom...well, we wouldn't have had the movies but things might have ended better for everyone.

 

[The Wook]

Ha! Well, again in regards to a narrative through line, Luke's journey to the end of ROTJ and his relationship to the Force is entirely about love. He even defies his teacher to try and save his friends. He turns away from the dogma at that point and the ROTJ really brings that home at the end with him pleading to his father to save him, not even trying to fight back after touching the Dark Side and turning away. That's the story GL told. When given the opportunity to go back and do the PT, he started off with Qui-gon, a Jedi who also had a very different view of the Force then the Jedi Council. We watch the Jedi in their ivory tower completely fail over the course of three films. Sure, their arrogance was a major problem and so was their relation with the Force. If they had let Anakin be in love, go back and save his Mom...well, we wouldn't have had the movies but things might have ended better for everyone.

So then, you're in favor of Luke being a deadbeat father, who left his little girl stranded on a barren, dangerous planet to fend for herself?

Cold, man. That is cold.

The Wook

ps~That's not the Luke I know and admire.

 

[Bryancd]

So then, you're in favor of Luke being a deadbeat father, who left his little girl stranded on a barren, dangerous planet to fend for herself?

Cold, man. That is cold.

The Wook

ps~That's not the Luke I know and admire.

No, he didn't, because she isn't Luke's daughter. I'm very much leaning away from that fan theory. And that has nothing to do with what I thought we were discussing.

 

[NeoRutty]

So then, you're in favor of Luke being a deadbeat father, who left his little girl stranded on a barren, dangerous planet to fend for herself?

Cold, man. That is cold.

The Wook

ps~That's not the Luke I know and admire.

Objection! Hearsay!

Even if Rey is his daughter, there is nothing anywhere that states Luke abandoned her... (Though I don't believe Rey is his daughter... or it was even him that left her there)

No one even knows why Luke left, just that he felt responsible for Kylo's flip out... Friends close to him said he went looking for a Jedi Temple.

We have no idea why the temple means anything... Why Rey was dropped where she was. Why she's being left with that junk dealer, but then seems to have next to no relationship with him other than professional.

Why did he want BB-8 so bad he would steal it... no one knew about BB-8 at that point... was he protecting Rey by trying to buy, and then have guys steal it?

Is he Uncle Owening her? Does Luke know the Junk Dealer? Old friend?

IF Rey is his daughter, which she's not, it's not going to be a dead beat Dad sitch. Abrams was dragged in because the idea for the next trilogy was "who is Luke Skywalker?" I doubt that answer was "Dead beat Dad! I'm in!"

 

[Bryancd]

Objection! Hearsay!

Even if Rey is his daughter, there is nothing anywhere that states Luke abandoned her... (Though I don't believe Rey is his daughter... or it was even him that left her there)

No one even knows why Luke left, just that he felt responsible for Kylo's flip out... Friends close to him said he went looking for a Jedi Temple.

We have no idea why the temple means anything... Why Rey was dropped where she was. Why she's being left with that junk dealer, but then seems to have next to no relationship with him other than professional.

Why did he want BB-8 so bad he would steal it... no one knew about BB-8 at that point... was he protecting Rey by trying to buy, and then have guys steal it?

Is he Uncle Owening her? Does Luke know the Junk Dealer? Old friend?

IF Rey is his daughter, which she's not, it's not going to be a dead beat Dad sitch. Abrams was dragged in because the idea for the next trilogy was "who is Luke Skywalker?" I doubt that answer was "Dead beat Dad! I'm in!"

Didn't Unkar know the First Order was looking for BB-8? It seemed like everyone nefarious did!

 

[NeoRutty]

Well, they didn't know they were looking for BB-8 until Kylo got it out of Poe torture round 2 - Kylo mind meld... Maybe it as known by the time Rey came back to the junkyard with BB-8... can't recall...

I felt like it wasn't widely known until they escaped the planet.