Lawrencewreeves
New Member
Ten million was just a way of emphasising the point lots of people have seen it and we all have different likes
Am I REALLY the only one disappointed with TFA?
- Thread starter sithman66
- Start date
niennumb1
Master Member
Well we don't all belong to a group of friends that had a key role in not only taking down the biggest evil army in the galaxy, but their key leadership. That could cause some danger being as they would now be probably the most wanted/targetted rebels by the remaining Imperials. For the sake of their lives, perhaps one scenario of spreading out would best keep them safer.
That POSSIBLE example scenario aside, 30+ years is a long time for anything to happen that could have broken up the group of friends. Life happens. Things unforseen happen that can rip the closest of families apart. The events that happened in Luke's training of new Jedi that went south, which had a role in where he New Order may be today being a stronger power with a dark force user is absolutely a devastating blow and weight on Luke's shoulders enough to guilt him into exile. Cripes I had a very friend who had a girlfriend up and leave him while he was away at work (her stuff was gone when he came home). He was so emotionally dismantled by it that none of our friends heard from him or seen him in months before he reached out to us... and that wasn't even anything that affected so much as a neighborhood block.
When you go through life you see things can and will change. Sometimes friend dynamics don't change and you're lucky. Other times it's drastic and everything changes. Family, marriages, war, money, disease, death...... You can't blame JJ Abrams for nuking something that can and does happen in every day life. Of all things people find far-fetched, this is one thing that is very real. The closest of friends can be torn apart by many varying degrees of circumstances.
There is no simple happily every after. We're constantly being threatened by something new, and even when you take down that threat, like a weed, another pops up. You will never 100% eliminate that, and you can never know what will happen next, whether it be to you, a friend, your family, your city, your country...
R.P. McMurphy
Well-Known Member
It's not just that they went their separate ways, it's that the story of the OT doesn't seem to matter. The struggles of the heroes we fell in love with made no difference. Everything is virtually back to where we started. Luke's isolated, Leia's leading the rebels/resistance, Han's smuggling, and the Empire/First Order is still there with a powerful leader and a dark clad henchman and a planet destroying weapon.
I'm totally conflicted in that I enjoyed TFA and can appreciate why it is so successful but am disappointed in how it took the storyline of the OT heroes that, for me, made Star Wars what it is.
It looks like none of what I would believe most everyone would of predicted in 1983 for the future of our heroes came to pass. Instead, they all failed each other.
You could have still had a movie very similar to TFA while building on the success and future successes of our OT heroes. I wanted some indication that the story of the OT mattered and I don't see that.
I'm totally conflicted in that I enjoyed TFA and can appreciate why it is so successful but am disappointed in how it took the storyline of the OT heroes that, for me, made Star Wars what it is.
It looks like none of what I would believe most everyone would of predicted in 1983 for the future of our heroes came to pass. Instead, they all failed each other.
You could have still had a movie very similar to TFA while building on the success and future successes of our OT heroes. I wanted some indication that the story of the OT mattered and I don't see that.
Never underestimate the cool factor of heroes who actually work hard to try and not kill their foes.
Vash the Stampede from Trigun is probably my favorite example of this. He's a character who's capable of leveling an entire city with the power he has but he never ever tries to kill anyone. If you think seeing Bruce Wayne, another character who's known for not killing his foes severely scarred back showed the cost of him being The Dark Knight, wait till you see the scars that Vash has.
Or heck, why not the Terminator? Here is a cybernetic organism who's sole purpose is to infiltrate human populated areas and execute their targets. In Terminator 2, we get a Terminator who is ordered not to kill anyone and through his quest to better understand human behavior not only understands the reasoning behind this order, but sacrifices himself to ensure that no one has to die because of him.
I'm not saying that Star Wars shouldn't have wars or battle based conflict anymore. I just think it'd be nice if some of these characters actually worked to resolve conflicts without resorting to the death of their foes. Those kinds of situations can still be fun, exciting and for something like Star Wars, could really help show why a new Jedi order would be so essential. I'm just imagining a Jedi being cornered by like 14 stormtroopers armed with everything at their disposal. They want to kill this Jedi, but the Jedi doesn't want to kill them. After all, Force Users have the force knock back, force pull, mind tricks and now with TFA a mere wave of the hand can knock people out cold. I would love to see a scene where a Jedi seems to go all out in everything they do that doesn't involve killing anyone. It's something that I would like to see because in my mind, that's how I always felt the Jedi should have been.
You're comparing Batman, Vash and the Terminator with an MSNBC news anchor?
Solo4114
Master Member
I actually kind of understand the "But it was supposed to be happily ever after!" line of thinking. I get the notion of being disappointed at having been sold a bill of decidedly fantastical or un-real goods, only to have someone then give you an down-note ending and say "Ah, but that's more realistic."
I felt that way at the end of How I Met Your Mother. To my way of thinking, the show went to great lengths to ground its humor at times, but also great lengths to create outrageous, wacky situations. Moreover, the entire story had been set up as one thing, and ended as something else. Even though the show kind of telegraphed the ending, I still thought it was a storytelling mistake, given the nature of the show that had been running for the past 10 years.
So, yeah, I get the idea that the end of this film -- and much of the setup for it -- was deeply unsatisfying to people. Two observations, though:
1. This is ultimately what happens when you have a movie industry hell-bent on answering the question "And then what happened?" The way of the world is that people eventually die and happy endings don't always stay happy. Whether that's because the prince or princess eventually dies, or because of something worse, the fairy tale ending is just that: a fairy tale. It's kind of the same way that Doctor Manhattan responds "In the end? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends," in Watchmen. So, as soon as it was announced that Disney was making Episode VII, I had a hunch that the "happy ending" of ROTJ wouldn't last. It can't, after all. If ROTJ ended with everyone happily ever after, what conflict is there left to resolve in any sequel?
2. Given that a sequel was announced, I think it was ultimately unrealistic to expect or hope that it wouldn't feature the OT characters. I know, at one point I was vehemently against it, particularly given my hunch that bad things would happen to my childhood heroes. I know that I certainly advocated for the story to be set hundreds of years in the future, precisely to avoid any issues with what happened to our heroes, or the ending of ROTJ. But as I say, that's a pretty unrealistic and narrow fan-centric perspective. To the vast majority of audience members and potential audience members, Star Wars is Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, and Chewbacca. It may be more than that, but at the very least, it is those things. It's X-wing fighters and giant battle stations that need destroying, and dark Jedi/sith dudes in black with red lightsabres fighting Jedi with blue lightsabres. If you do a Star Wars movie that doesn't have those things in it, the casual audience member will think they're just watching some generic sci-fi movie that's really just a knock-off of Star Wars. They won't "get" the continuity.
This is different for the hardcore fans like folks who post here. People here have read the EU materials. They've played the video games. They think Wookieepedia's existence is a perfectly reasonable thing, rather than something that's totally crazy. They are completely unperturbed by the notion of there being this vast universe beyond the Skywalker family and all the familiar tropes of the original three Star Wars films. I would venture that these people, these hardcore fans, are in the extreme minority.
Now, compare the experience of this film to the experience of the 2009 Star Trek film. To my way of thinking, the 2009 Star Trek film is Trek in name only, really. Well, name and the most superficial aspects of depiction. Trek 2009 is, I think, an object lesson in how not to relaunch a franchise that (A) brings in new fans and (B) mostly retains the old ones. By contrast, TFA really does try to bring people along. It tries to give them the core of what is the Star Wars experience, but in a way that allows the story to evolve into something newer, bigger, and which isn't restricted by forever repeating the same old stories.
It's true that this film (A) somewhat changes the tone of the story, and (B) hits a lot of the old plot notes. I would argue that this is necessary to have the film serve as an effective, familiar-feeling bridge into something new. I would even argue that the sequel trilogy we'll be getting will still hit a lot more of the familiar elements, like mysterious family histories, the hero having a dark secret, and a final confrontation with the evil wizard at the end of the tale. And after that, I expect -- I hope -- that the Star Wars universe will grow considerably.
One of my major complaints about the EU is that so much of it seemed to be either a boring repeat of the original stuff, or something so different as to be nigh unrecognizable. Only a few authors, I felt, ever "got" the core of the Star Wars experience while simultaneously expanding that experience into greater, more interesting things. My hope is that, with these new films, we'll get more of a new experience, and the Star Wars universe itself will become a LOT broader.
All that aside, I can understand the disappointment of not getting the same kind of vibe as the old films. I just also think that it was, ultimately, unrealistic to expect to get that. That's not to say you're not entitled to be disappointed, just that it probably should've been expected. My advice is, honestly, if you hated TFA or were deeply unsatisfied by it, do what I do with regards to the PT: excise them from your mind and just focus on the originals. Don't get caught up in what's canon and what isn't, what can't be unseen, etc. Just...focus on the stuff you love, and block out the stuff you don't.
I felt that way at the end of How I Met Your Mother. To my way of thinking, the show went to great lengths to ground its humor at times, but also great lengths to create outrageous, wacky situations. Moreover, the entire story had been set up as one thing, and ended as something else. Even though the show kind of telegraphed the ending, I still thought it was a storytelling mistake, given the nature of the show that had been running for the past 10 years.
So, yeah, I get the idea that the end of this film -- and much of the setup for it -- was deeply unsatisfying to people. Two observations, though:
1. This is ultimately what happens when you have a movie industry hell-bent on answering the question "And then what happened?" The way of the world is that people eventually die and happy endings don't always stay happy. Whether that's because the prince or princess eventually dies, or because of something worse, the fairy tale ending is just that: a fairy tale. It's kind of the same way that Doctor Manhattan responds "In the end? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends," in Watchmen. So, as soon as it was announced that Disney was making Episode VII, I had a hunch that the "happy ending" of ROTJ wouldn't last. It can't, after all. If ROTJ ended with everyone happily ever after, what conflict is there left to resolve in any sequel?
2. Given that a sequel was announced, I think it was ultimately unrealistic to expect or hope that it wouldn't feature the OT characters. I know, at one point I was vehemently against it, particularly given my hunch that bad things would happen to my childhood heroes. I know that I certainly advocated for the story to be set hundreds of years in the future, precisely to avoid any issues with what happened to our heroes, or the ending of ROTJ. But as I say, that's a pretty unrealistic and narrow fan-centric perspective. To the vast majority of audience members and potential audience members, Star Wars is Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, and Chewbacca. It may be more than that, but at the very least, it is those things. It's X-wing fighters and giant battle stations that need destroying, and dark Jedi/sith dudes in black with red lightsabres fighting Jedi with blue lightsabres. If you do a Star Wars movie that doesn't have those things in it, the casual audience member will think they're just watching some generic sci-fi movie that's really just a knock-off of Star Wars. They won't "get" the continuity.
This is different for the hardcore fans like folks who post here. People here have read the EU materials. They've played the video games. They think Wookieepedia's existence is a perfectly reasonable thing, rather than something that's totally crazy. They are completely unperturbed by the notion of there being this vast universe beyond the Skywalker family and all the familiar tropes of the original three Star Wars films. I would venture that these people, these hardcore fans, are in the extreme minority.
Now, compare the experience of this film to the experience of the 2009 Star Trek film. To my way of thinking, the 2009 Star Trek film is Trek in name only, really. Well, name and the most superficial aspects of depiction. Trek 2009 is, I think, an object lesson in how not to relaunch a franchise that (A) brings in new fans and (B) mostly retains the old ones. By contrast, TFA really does try to bring people along. It tries to give them the core of what is the Star Wars experience, but in a way that allows the story to evolve into something newer, bigger, and which isn't restricted by forever repeating the same old stories.
It's true that this film (A) somewhat changes the tone of the story, and (B) hits a lot of the old plot notes. I would argue that this is necessary to have the film serve as an effective, familiar-feeling bridge into something new. I would even argue that the sequel trilogy we'll be getting will still hit a lot more of the familiar elements, like mysterious family histories, the hero having a dark secret, and a final confrontation with the evil wizard at the end of the tale. And after that, I expect -- I hope -- that the Star Wars universe will grow considerably.
One of my major complaints about the EU is that so much of it seemed to be either a boring repeat of the original stuff, or something so different as to be nigh unrecognizable. Only a few authors, I felt, ever "got" the core of the Star Wars experience while simultaneously expanding that experience into greater, more interesting things. My hope is that, with these new films, we'll get more of a new experience, and the Star Wars universe itself will become a LOT broader.
All that aside, I can understand the disappointment of not getting the same kind of vibe as the old films. I just also think that it was, ultimately, unrealistic to expect to get that. That's not to say you're not entitled to be disappointed, just that it probably should've been expected. My advice is, honestly, if you hated TFA or were deeply unsatisfied by it, do what I do with regards to the PT: excise them from your mind and just focus on the originals. Don't get caught up in what's canon and what isn't, what can't be unseen, etc. Just...focus on the stuff you love, and block out the stuff you don't.
Darth Lars
Master Member
It is not the same situation as with the PT.
For the PT, I chose to see them as being films that could be remade - as if they were historical dramas made within the Star Wars universe and not exactly what had happened. The overall story was great, as was the art direction. The only big problems were the cringe-worthy acting performances and out-of-touch humour - and those are details that can be re-interpreted.
In the prequel-era in the Star Wars universe there were also other things than the movies that could be enjoyed: many novels and comic books as well as a couple of TV-series that brought more stories and depth to the Universe - and sometimes with much better character interaction and dialogue than the movies. The movies were only a small part of a whole.
The problem with the Sequel Trilogy is the reverse: the acting and character interactions were mostly good, but the story is all fouled up - and that soils everything else.
Solo4114
Master Member
I was extremely disappointed with the PT. I was doubly disappointed at the direction the entire Star Wars franchise took around that time -- basically abandoning the OT stuff. The novels had gone off the rails with the Vong nonsense, nobody was making new games set in the OT, and I'd gotten out of the comics. Meanwhile, Lucas was hell-bent on destroying the originals (as I saw it) by only permitting the SEs to be released on home media. Basically, it felt like Star Wars had just gone in a very different direction from what I wanted, and nobody seemed to care anymore. For almost a decade, I basically was "done" with Star Wars.
The way I got past that was basically to find my own way to enjoy the franchise on my own terms. Everyone will not love all aspects of the franchise, but you've got to be able to find a way to enjoy what you can without throwing the good out with the bad. That's why I suggest just doing whatever mental gymnastics are required to allow yourself to at least continue to enjoy what you've always enjoyed. It's not easy. It took me a while to get past the "THE PREQUELS NEVER HAPPENED" mentality and find things within them that I could kinda sorta dig, even if the bulk of it was crap (in my opinion). But I did manage to get past it and now I'm at a place where I take Star Wars -- and, really, all fandoms -- on my own terms.
They didn't have to use the OT characters or even the Empire and rebellion again.
Jump ahead 100 years or more. Whole fresh start. Gasp.
But I think safe fan service prevailed and they knew they just HAD to have Han Solo and the Falcon and Chewie
and do that whole thing. So yes, the OT characters were sacrificed on the nostalgia alter and used to create an
easy lazy source of drama.
Star Wars is not realistic, I don't think anyone would argue that it is, so why would I want realistic crappy things
to happen to my fairy tale heroes? (and it's more than that for me, they aren't the same people anymore)
Do something new, leave them be. That would take far more creative courage than
from the likes of Abrams that's for sure.
Jump ahead 100 years or more. Whole fresh start. Gasp.
But I think safe fan service prevailed and they knew they just HAD to have Han Solo and the Falcon and Chewie
and do that whole thing. So yes, the OT characters were sacrificed on the nostalgia alter and used to create an
easy lazy source of drama.
Star Wars is not realistic, I don't think anyone would argue that it is, so why would I want realistic crappy things
to happen to my fairy tale heroes? (and it's more than that for me, they aren't the same people anymore)
Do something new, leave them be. That would take far more creative courage than
from the likes of Abrams that's for sure.
Wolfsburg
Master Member
I assume that's the same hand he got in TESB with the flesh weathered away.
That's really not fair. In regards to STAR TREK, it wasn't JJ who envisioned the reboot, it was Paramount. That's what they wanted and they hired JJ to realize that idea. Paramount wanted Kirk, Spock, the whole TOS gang back and tasked him with forming that story with some fan service OT Spock. Same exact situation here. Disney purchases LF as well as the GL/Arendt treatments. How much of that is in TFA remains to be seen but without question Disney wanted this film to have the OT fan appeal and GL had already secured the big 3 for a comeback. So JJ is brought in along with Kasdan and they work with Arendt and the story group to create a film that can include both OT characters as well as new. That's one reason why TFA is much more successful then new ST, because we do have the new characters to carry the story forward whereas Trek is stuck with the TOS crew being played by different people.
And it bears repeating, this film HAD to be a hit across the board otherwise the entire future of the franchise would have been in jeopardy. This was not the time or place to get different. Now that the film is a categorical success, they can breath a sigh of relief and explore this universe. if they had made the film YOU wanted it could have been worse for the franchise then the PT.
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Abrams is the studio go to for done before that's for sure.
Then don't knock him for doing his job as hired correctly.
But surely you see why TFA needed to be structured the way it was? I'm not sure what you would have done differently but without a major financial, critical, and audience success this whole $4B party could have been for nothing. Now we have a bright future indeed.
Then don't knock him for doing his job as hired correctly.
I see no bright future yet. This film was a major disappointment for some of us.
Next up Rogue Squadron, that is my "only hope" right now.
KrangPrime
Master Member
I havn't seen it a second time yet... but these where my initial thoughts also.
the entire reign of disney star wars, once the nostalgia effect wears off, has been decidedly 'meh'.
It started with Rebels and the Aladin like designs of the characters . The Empire was defeated so easily and there is no real sense of danger, suspense, or fun.
the characters are likeable, but they arn't given much range to do anything other than just be there. then the main bad guy gets killed off in the first season because....why? he also didn't get much of a achance to make an impact or to really do anything other than walk around and swing his lightsaber a bit.
when you compare rebels to the fast paced action of clone wars....where dooku was twisting things left and right....and rebels is really a sad comparison to the Star Wars legacy.
the Force Awakens ramps up the danger factor a little, but it doesn't really know what the hell it wants to be. does it want to forge ahead with a new cast? does it want to update us on where the old cast has been?
yes, the movies echo each other.... but I felt we got more new territory in The Phantom Menace (only recreating the death star battle and end parade) then we did in the Force Awakens (recreating the death star rescue, tatooine escape from imperials, cantina scene, 'help me obi wan kenobi', and death star battle). I hope we get FAR new territory in episode 8 now that the throw back stuff has been done and dealt with.
If I had to rank the films, I'd put them at 4, 5, 3, 2, 2,5(clone Wars movie), 6, and 7.
the entire reign of disney star wars, once the nostalgia effect wears off, has been decidedly 'meh'.
It started with Rebels and the Aladin like designs of the characters . The Empire was defeated so easily and there is no real sense of danger, suspense, or fun.
the characters are likeable, but they arn't given much range to do anything other than just be there. then the main bad guy gets killed off in the first season because....why? he also didn't get much of a achance to make an impact or to really do anything other than walk around and swing his lightsaber a bit.
when you compare rebels to the fast paced action of clone wars....where dooku was twisting things left and right....and rebels is really a sad comparison to the Star Wars legacy.
the Force Awakens ramps up the danger factor a little, but it doesn't really know what the hell it wants to be. does it want to forge ahead with a new cast? does it want to update us on where the old cast has been?
yes, the movies echo each other.... but I felt we got more new territory in The Phantom Menace (only recreating the death star battle and end parade) then we did in the Force Awakens (recreating the death star rescue, tatooine escape from imperials, cantina scene, 'help me obi wan kenobi', and death star battle). I hope we get FAR new territory in episode 8 now that the throw back stuff has been done and dealt with.
If I had to rank the films, I'd put them at 4, 5, 3, 2, 2,5(clone Wars movie), 6, and 7.
Bigdaddy
Master Member
Why not both? It seemed to do just that, create a bridge to transition to the next generation.
I think history will show that The Force Awakens will go down similar but not to the extreme fate as the Phantom Menace. I'm not saying The Force Awakens is anywhere as bad as the Phantom Menace, but I am saying that just like the Phantom Menace, which got 3 to 4 star rave reviews when it was first released, that after all the new Star Wars hype dies down, and fans really look at the film in its own merits, then they will realize that it's just an OK Star Wars film, nowhere near the quality of the Empire Strikes Back. I liked the film but I did not love it and walked out underwhelmed. I list it at number #4 in my list of Star Wars films I liked. I have seen it several times, each time hoping my feelings for it would get better, but in all honestly on my last viewing, I played on my phone most of the movie.
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