Alleged Screen Used Hero TOS Phaser up for auction (now the aftermath)

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GJ: first hand
HA: second hand
USS Endeav: third hand
That's how it came to me, the existence of the statement becomes a whole new claim.

I'm not aware of a publicly available statement from any experts GJ or otherwise pertaining to the production of more than 4 hero props. Even the existence of such a statement would not be sufficient evidence to lend relevance to the claim anyway, since that level of information is outside Mr Jein's wheelhouse.

If I assert that the teapot on my counter (currently selling for $100,000 )was in orbit in 1969 and my evidence is an opinion from Neil deGrasse Tyson, it seems reasonable to want to see the statement. Even if the statement and opinion was genuine, he wouldn't have first hand knowledge of the space program activities in 1969. Only an opinion that should be examined skeptically, based on the lack of any evidence lending credence to the claim about the teapot.
I am not third hand as I am not making any assertions to the definitive. It would seem as though you and Jintosh are.
I merely offered one plausible explanation for why GJ would assert it is genuine contrary to any screen match verification, a possible 2nd invoice or other written proof a 5th hero was ordered.

You and Jintosh seem steadfast in making the absolute statement no such proof exists. Your anecdotal teapot not withstanding, you've offered zero proof GJ or Heritage are not in possession of written proof. While it is unlikely they have any, as one would expect such proof to accompany the auction, it doesn't negate the possibility the seller wanted it not to be revealed, perhaps it will be sold under separate auction?

I am open to both possibilities (it exists and it does not) while you seem closed to the aforementioned.
 
Big news-- Herocomm has changed their position on the authenticity of the phaser. See here on their phaser page. Given this new development and Herocomm's track record and reputation, I accept their opinion that the phaser is very likely a fifth hero from the show.

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To coin a phrase…fascinating. HeroComm switching sides on this certainly makes my own needle waver, but I’m not quite yet ready to budge it. People make mistakes, and everyone has a price, after all. Experts can be wrong, and to take them at their word simply because of reputation or industry connections would be foolish. It would be in bad form as a card-carrying RPF member to simply take on faith the notion that, “the unnamed experts have examined it, and it’s totally real”. I say this not to denigrate anyone or their expertise—I’m saying that it would be foolish to accept such a statement on its face without examining and testing all available data and theories.

The inherent problem here is that we have very little data to analyze. Just the available facts (the inventory list, the four screencapped heroes, the similar construction techniques and shell moldings of both the surviving heroes and midgrades, etc.).

Given HeroComm’s excellent track record, I’m giving serious pause here, though. There may well be data here that is not publicly available, which is why healthy buckets of skepticism are still necessary. And my playful rewriting of the HA email is still funny, dagnabbit. I regret nothing. We’ve mostly been treading water and making jokes because there hasn’t BEEN much new data to work with.

Let’s take a step back, here. The discovery of another surviving hero phaser is a find of major historical significance. A Holy Grail prop. And, over the years, people have been scammed for hundreds of thousands of dollars for both crude and clever fakes. To say nothing of all the TREK forgeries sold at auction, just look at those Graflex lightsabers from people DIRECTLY TIED TO THE PRODUCTION OF STAR WARS like Gary Kurtz and Roger Christian. There are ample reference materials out there to allow con artists to craft a convincing forgery with all of the working hero parts and functions. Therefore, even the most convincing prop to come out of the woodwork should be treated with the harshest criticism and questions.

As has been noted by several people here, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. This is the sort of discovery we want to be SURE about, both for the sake of potential buyers and for the sake of all us hobbyists out there who worship these props.

Is it POSSIBLE that more than four heroes were built? Sure. Is it POSSIBLE that one such hero is a direct copy of the Jein, but used different construction techniques for the rails and such? Sure. None of that should really be in dispute. Of course it’s all possible. But, in the absense of new data, all we can do is ask whether or not that is LIKELY, based on the available data. Without any inside access to the auction piece or vintage production documents, that’s all we can do. Question, speculate, and demand that the burden of proof be met by the other side.

Up until now, my gut instinct, in conjunction with said available data, has been to call this thing out as a fake, in the interest of healthy skepticism. However, if HeroComm and other, unnamed experts vouch for it, then that raises even more questions. There may well be data and/or documents which we simply are not privy to. I would HOPE that such data does become available, though. Because, if it doesn’t, there will probably always be lingering doubts over this piece.

Given the actual facts we have to work with, and the long list of questions and discrepancies which have been raised, I’m still not convinced. But I’m certainly open to new data, and hope that it comes out. Looking forward to seeing how this plays out.
 
Herocomm needs to come out, immediately, and say who these experts are and what has made them so convinced.


I am by no means saying that this is the case, here, but there absolutely have been instances in the past where a small number of individuals have withheld data and/or perpetuated falsehoods in order to lord it over the rest of the prop community. Unless NDAs or sensitive materials are involved, that’s why transparency is usually a good way to go.

Herocomm needs to come out, immediately, and say who these experts are and what has made them so convinced.

Unless they’re bound by an agreement (be it handshake or legally-binding), I would expect them to come out with a detailed explanation sometime in the future. Patience is a virtue.
 
Simply put, when an item is on offer at a major auction house, it is not time for secrecy. Quite the opposite. Can you imagine the latest Leonardo painting discovery not cataloged with the necessary bona fides and written reports of the scientific and historic authorities? It's just not done - except in our area.

They leave breadcrumbs, which allow for some to connect the dots, in a predetermined way, while others cannot make the leaps of faith. There is no doubt this piece is being offered on faith alone. I doubt there are any secret reports or smoking guns; it would certainly be in the consignors best interest to share them. They hope the bidders who can purchase such an item of value, if real, will rely on trust and faith, and lack the expertise to know of the discrepancies.

I can't get past the fact no screen grabs exist of any other phasers other than the 4. I would not be allowed to place a vintage costume in a sale, as screen used, without high quality stills or images to prove use. Even then, one might not know if it is the exact costume I have, or another just like it made for the film. This is true of props, too. But, in this instance, we are asked to do just that on faith. At the most, it should be offered as from the production, as an opinion. Screen used does not attach, since that is a state that needs to proven beyond doubt. Try consigning something to Heritage that cannot be proved and see if they accept it as screen used.
 
Simply put, when an item is on offer at a major auction house, it is not time for secrecy. Quite the opposite. Can you imagine the latest Leonardo painting discovery not cataloged with the necessary bona fides and written reports of the scientific and historic authorities? It's just not done - except in our area.

They leave breadcrumbs, which allow for some to connect the dots, in a predetermined way, while others cannot make the leaps of faith. There is no doubt this piece is being offered on faith alone. I doubt there are any secret reports or smoking guns; it would certainly be in the consignors best interest to share them. They hope the bidders who can purchase such an item of value, if real, will rely on trust and faith, and lack the expertise to know of the discrepancies.

I can't get past the fact no screen grabs exist of any other phasers other than the 4. I would not be allowed to place a vintage costume in a sale, as screen used, without high quality stills or images to prove use. Even then, one might not know if it is the exact costume I have, or another just like it made for the film. This is true of props, too. But, in this instance, we are asked to do just that on faith. At the most, it should be offered as from the production, as an opinion. Screen used does not attach, since that is a state that needs to proven beyond doubt. Try consigning something to Heritage that cannot be proved and see if they accept it as screen used.

…so the questions again begin to flood in: When was this fifth phaser built? Why was it built? Was it even even used on the show, or is it just “production-made”, which would knock down its value? If it WAS used in the show, why can’t it be identified in screencaps? If it wasn’t actually used onscreen in the show, then how did it get damaged? And why is the paintjob so sloppy? Why does its construction vary from the others in terms of the side rail and position of the P1 side knob? Why do its only “tells” specifically duplicate those of the Jein, which is the only surviving hero to be extensively documented, and thus most easily faked? Why doesn’t it have any unique tells like the other hero phasers do (P1 gem/meter numbers, Velcro/no Velcro, etc.)?

And so on.
 
Why do its only “tells” specifically duplicate those of the Jein, which is the only surviving hero to be extensively documented, and thus most easily faked?

Well said ! If all four known phasers are each unique in their own way to the degree that they can be identified in screen shots, then two virtually identical ones is NOT right. By their nature.
 
Well said ! If all four known phasers are each unique in their own way to the degree that they can be identified in screen shots, then two virtually identical ones is NOT right. By their nature.

Which is a point I’ve made several times. Each of the four known heroes has unique little details—the gems (or lack thereof), the differing power meter numbers (at least on the two heroes—Jein and TMOST—that we can read the numbers on), the Velcro (or lack thereof), etc.

I find it extremely strange that this supposedly long-lost prop exactly duplicates the specific tells of the Jein, especially the (identical) power meter numbers and lack of P1 gem.
 
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To coin a phrase…fascinating. HeroComm switching sides on this certainly makes my own needle waver, but I’m not quite yet ready to budge it. People make mistakes, and everyone has a price, after all. Experts can be wrong, and to take them at their word simply because of reputation or industry connections would be foolish. It would be in bad form as a card-carrying RPF member to simply take on faith the notion that, “the unnamed experts have examined it, and it’s totally real”. I say this not to denigrate anyone or their expertise—I’m saying that it would be foolish to accept such a statement on its face without examining and testing all available data and theories.
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QUOTE FROM HEROCOMM

8) We regard our site to be 100% complete. All available data has been studied and every topic fully researched and reported on. A few pet projects still need to be wrapped up, plus one never knows what tomorrow may bring, so as anything new becomes available, we'll update our content then.

9) Every effort has been made to post fully accurate information. However, we may likely still have errors somewhere in our pages. If you think you have found one, let us know and we'll look into it.

10) All evaluations and conclusions here are the sole opinion of the HeroComm editorial staff, and do not constitute any formal legal declarations. It is offered for your reading enjoyment only.
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Number 10 gives me pause. They are NOT asserting that the phaser is real...if their opinion is not a Legal declaration.
 
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If I hit the lotto, I wouldn't buy it. The normal WOW factor across the forums is utterly missing from this discovery.

And yet several very well-regarded experts (some named, some not) are now firmly vouching for the authenticity of the piece. So, there’s gotta be something going on, here.

There are two possibilities: Either a number of well-regarded experts have made a mistake (or, at worst—and unlikely, given the credentials of those involved—have been bought off), or they’re privy to evidence we are not, evidence which is very convincing.

Still waiting for that extraordinary proof to dismiss my gut feeling.
 
If I hit the lotto, I wouldn't buy it. The normal WOW factor across the forums is utterly missing from this discovery.

If I hit the Lotto, I'll buy it. Just so I can have it better examined. I just don't buy the evaluation. I would get another evaluation.
 
And yet several very well-regarded experts (some named, some not) are now firmly vouching for the authenticity of the piece. So, there’s gotta be something going on, here.

There are two possibilities: Either a number of well-regarded experts have made a mistake (or, at worst—and unlikely, given the credentials of those involved—have been bought off), or they’re privy to evidence we are not, evidence which is very convincing.

Still waiting for that extraordinary proof to dismiss my gut feeling.

Maybe that WOW factor will occur if they share more info, I'd really like to see some reference material that has not been made public yet where it matches.
 
In the firearms collecting world we have a phrase, "Buy the gun, not the story."

The story doesn't add up to me. The actual prop itself has discrepancies other people have pointed out.

The evidence that is supposed to prove the validity is being so close-held it may as well not exist.

Unless the auction house releases more documentation about the people involved and the circumstances of the provenance over the decades I don't see how the story as stated holds up.

An appeal to "There's secret information and experts we can't name have who have authenticiated it" only goes so far.

As I said before, this has all the makings of a classic con job.
 
Well, if the person buying this prop discovers that it was a fake all along and offer proofs (with other "experts") to the courts that it is fake then the law suit, as well as various reputations here, will be the big, true reveal:oops:
 
This cannot be asserted to the degree you imply. There may yet exist a secondary invoice for "x" number of additional props. The fact is, we simply do not know for certain. I'm inclined to agree with you as ordering additional heroes when the existing ones were not being fully utilized would be an unnecessary expense. I'm just clarifying that for all their dubious misleading claims, Heritage can safely fall back on what we don't know and we don't know if additional props were ordered.

Actually there is more than the memo, upon Wah's death the executor of the estate wrote a letter detailing all of the Star Trek invoices from his records, one of which said something like "reworking of 4 practical phasers, adding knobs, etc.). Nothing about a mystery 5th phaser.
 
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QUOTE FROM HEROCOMM

8) We regard our site to be 100% complete. All available data has been studied and every topic fully researched and reported on. A few pet projects still need to be wrapped up, plus one never knows what tomorrow may bring, so as anything new becomes available, we'll update our content then.

9) Every effort has been made to post fully accurate information. However, we may likely still have errors somewhere in our pages. If you think you have found one, let us know and we'll look into it.

10) All evaluations and conclusions here are the sole opinion of the HeroComm editorial staff, and do not constitute any formal legal declarations. It is offered for your reading enjoyment only.
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Number 10 gives me pause. They are NOT asserting that the phaser is real...if their opinion is not a Legal declaration.
You forgot:

6) You may reach us through our Contact Page up ahead. Note that everything we are free to divulge, we already have, so please do not ask for materials beyond the content you see here.


It would not surprise me that those truly in a position to authenticate an item would not want want the whole world to know all the “tells”, for what should be obvious reasons. The world is not actually entitled to that information.

Number 10 just means they are not claiming to be 100% sure of anything, as if claiming so would mean anything. Like all those here who claim they are 100% certain it’s a fake.
 
Basically Herocomm is just saying, "Trust us. We know better than you. We don't have to give you any of the information we have or say how we got it or even who is giving us this information. Just trust us."

Literally goes against everything they have done for years.
 
One of the biggest problems I have had with Herocomm over the years was the secrecy. It did not really matter with the Alpha comm since no one was selling it but with this supposed 5th hero it needs to be said exactly why these experts think it is real and they need to provide more proof than just saying trust us.
 
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You forgot:

6) You may reach us through our Contact Page up ahead. Note that everything we are free to divulge, we already have, so please do not ask for materials beyond the content you see here.


It would not surprise me that those truly in a position to authenticate an item would not want want the whole world to know all the “tells”, for what should be obvious reasons. The world is not actually entitled to that information.

Number 10 just means they are not claiming to be 100% sure of anything, as if claiming so would mean anything. Like all those here who claim they are 100% certain it’s a fake.

They can not say that their opinion means something and that their opinion means nothing, legally. You can't have it both ways.

Yep, by saying their opinion is NOT A LEGAL ONE, then Herocomm's assertions are TRULY worth no more or less than OURS. And I trust the evaluations of the things that are not right, by OUR people more than people that say these differences don't matter, and it's real anyway.
 
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