Alleged Screen Used Hero TOS Phaser up for auction (now the aftermath)

[Lightning]

Why would Velcro be added late in the game to another hero when the midgrades had fully taken over as the workhorse belt-hanger props by the end of the first season? The claim is that this piece was sent in for repairs during the second season, but, by then, there would be no point in adding Velcro to another hero prop. And arguably no point in even repairing it.

The Velcro is only on the P1, which wasn't sent out for repairs.

I'm on team "fake", but just for kicks, with regards to the story, could the "repairs" have been fabricating a new P1 to replace the missing one that walked off set ?

 

[Gregatron]

The Velcro is only on the P1, which wasn't sent out for repairs.

I'm on team "fake", but just for kicks, with regards to the story, could the "repairs" have been fabricating a new P1 to replace the missing one that walked off set ?

Ah, but the Velcro would still ostensibly have been added during any “repairs” which modified the P1 to look just like the Jein P1, and no longer like any of the other three. Unless it’s that mysterious (and unlikely) fifth hero.

 

[robn1]

The Velcro was not added at a later date. As I've pointed out the side rail on the right side is glued into a slot cut in the side of the shell (a different attachment method from the other known heroes). There is no such slot in the left side, therefore this P1 never had a left side rail, and if it did it would have to be removed to apply Velcro.

Almost every other discrepancy can be explained with a made up story about repairs etc., but the missing side rail cannot. I would truly love to hear what GJ said about this, assuming he even noticed it.

 

[WinstonWolf359]

Is there a time in the series where we see three hero phasers without Velcro at one time?

I keep thinking back to how Wah Chang originally received the B&W pistols to rework: Two with Velcro, two without. Keeping that configuration makes sense, but deciding that just one with Velcro was enough makes sense too. So what evidence do we have from the show?

The only time I can recall seeing four hero pistols at once is in The Galileo Seven, and we can't see the left side of the two that stay in the weapons locker, and we only see clearly enough to make out one jewel; the plain red rhinestone like is seen on the Nona P-I.

 

[USS Endeav]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. That's axiomatic. And the onus of proof is on the person making the claim.

As I understand it, there is existing documentation in the form of an invoice that four hero phasers were commissioned and built. That's inarguable. Those four hero phasers have been identified and seen on the show, and their distinguishing marks have been traced back to four known physical props (counting P1 and P2 as 'one prop'). Also inarguable.

So, all the available evidence is of four hero phasers, all of which are accounted for.

Now, the claim is being made that a fifth hero phaser (both P1 and P2) exists, additional to, and different from, those documented four. Again, as I understand it, there is no known contemporary documentation to support this fifth phaser, and this fifth phaser has never been identified visibly on screen. Nevertheless, this 'extraordinary claim' is being made. It may be so; it may not.

So it's up to those making the claim to prove that claim. In the absence of incontrovertible evidence (not imaginary shy residents of San Francisco), the onus of proof is on you.

Yet, when asked for the proof for your extraordinary claim by those who are doubtful in the face of the lack of any such evidence; when asked to prove that this fifth phaser exists, you're the ones saying 'no, you prove it doesn't'. You're the ones asking others to prove a negative.

I agree, the burden is upon those making the claim.

Where I disagree with Jintosh is that no one can say with impunity and such certainty that there isn't the possibility of another as yet undiscovered invoice accounting for this mystery phaser. The dismissal or acceptance of the possibility for this documents existence has no bearing on the sellers obligation to prove his or her claim.

As I was told by Heritage, GJ stated to them in the course of authenticating this phaser, is that more than four heroes were ordered. So, if this is true, it does suggest another invoice document would exist. As for proof, GJ is offering a first person accounting of what happened and he asserts there were more than four heroes.

I all but outright think that senility has gotten the better of his memory or like NN, he is the victim of Kevin Nealon As Mr. Subliminal since all empirical evidence points to four heroes.

So again, I am only stating that no one here can so vehemently deny the existence of something simply because we haven't seen it. ie, a 2nd invoice document.

 

[Gregatron]

The Velcro was not added at a later date. As I've pointed out the side rail on the right side is glued into a slot cut in the side of the shell (a different attachment method from the other known heroes). There is no such slot in the left side, therefore this P1 never had a left side rail, and if it did it would have to be removed to apply Velcro.

Almost every other discrepancy can be explained with a made up story about repairs etc., but the missing side rail cannot. I would truly love to hear what GJ said about this, assuming he even noticed it.

Exactly.

Let’s say that the auction P1 WAS originally built without Velcro, which was added at a later date. If the side rail was removed, and then Velcro added in its place, then there should still be a slot where the rail once was, since the other, remaining rail DOES have a slot. Unless we’re now saying that the prop started out with glued-on side rails (like the other two heroes—Jein and TMOST—which we know had glued-on rails), the rails were removed, Velcro was added, a slot cut into one side of the shell, and the other side rail put back in place.

 

[Bigdaddy]

I agree, the burden is upon those making the claim.

Where I disagree with Jintosh is that no one can say with impunity and such certainty that there isn't the possibility of another as yet undiscovered invoice accounting for this mystery phaser. The dismissal or acceptance of the possibility for this documents existence has no bearing on the sellers obligation to prove his or her claim.

As I was told by Heritage, GJ stated to them in the course of authenticating this phaser, is that more than four heroes were ordered. So, if this is true, it does suggest another invoice document would exist. As for proof, GJ is offering a first person accounting of what happened and he asserts there were more than four heroes.

I all but outright think that senility has gotten the better of his memory or like NN, he is the victim of Kevin Nealon As Mr. Subliminal since all empirical evidence points to four heroes.

So again, I am only stating that no one here can so vehemently deny the existence of something simply because we haven't seen it. ie, a 2nd invoice document.

You're arguing for Russell's teapot, the claim has no validity until it can be demonstated. In the colloquial sense, we KNOW there are only four heroes. To consider the possibility of a fifth would require evidence. Although I understand your philosophical point about knowledge, it comes across as pedantic in the context of this thread.

 

[wayouteast]

View attachment 1473240

You're arguing for Russell's teapot, the claim has no validity until it can be demonstated. In the colloquial sense, we KNOW there are only four heroes. To consider the possibility of a fifth would require evidence. Although I understand your philosophical point about knowledge, it comes across as pedantic in the context of this thread.

Ha! You beat me to it. I was about the post the Russell's teapot analogy myself! So I'll go with the 'Invisible Pink Unicorn' instead!

 

[USS Endeav]

it comes across as pedantic in the context of this thread.

Not all that pedantic.

There is the only living TOS prop historian with first hand knowledge and experience stating there was a fifth hero.
There is the tangible phaser this same expert claims is that fifth hero.

So, as pedantic as you might want the 2nd invoice theory to be, it is just as valid (or invalid) as GJ's statement and the phaser itself.

I don't believe the phaser is genuine. I do think GJ is mistaken, has been mislead or is suffering senility. I also don't have proof of either thus for me, it isn't fair to dismiss either his statement or the prop itself, though I have all but done that in my mind. As a matter of pragmatism, I acknowledge that there is the possibility both his statement and memory along with the prop are what he states. If I accept that possibility, then so must I accept that proof exists (or did exist) somewhere, like an invoice or order form.

 

[asalaw]

Big news-- Herocomm has changed their position on the authenticity of the phaser. See here on their phaser page. Given this new development and Herocomm's track record and reputation, I accept their opinion that the phaser is very likely a fifth hero from the show.

I withdraw the above statement, which was in error. I no longer believe the phaser in question to be authentic.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Not all that pedantic.

There is the only living TOS prop historian with first hand knowledge and experience stating there was a fifth hero.
There is the tangible phaser this same expert claims is that fifth hero.

So, as pedantic as you might want the 2nd invoice theory to be, it is just as valid (or invalid) as GJ's statement and the phaser itself.

I don't believe the phaser is genuine. I do think GJ is mistaken, has been mislead or is suffering senility. I also don't have proof of either thus for me, it isn't fair to dismiss either his statement or the prop itself, though I have all but done that in my mind. As a matter of pragmatism, I acknowledge that there is the possibility both his statement and memory along with the prop are what he states. If I accept that possibility, then so must I accept that proof exists (or did exist) somewhere, like an invoice or order form.

Leaning on a 3rd hand accounting of an alleged statement from an expert is an "appeal to authority".

 

[Bigdaddy]

Big news-- Herocomm has changed their position on the authenticity of the phaser. See here on their phaser page. Given this new development and Herocomm's track record and reputation, I accept their opinion that the phaser is very likely a fifth hero from the show.

They offer no further documentation?

 

[USS Endeav]

Leaning on a 3rd hand accounting of an alleged statement from an expert is an "appeal to authority".

To know of something firsthand means the information is obtained from the original source or from personal experience.
Secondhand refers to information or knowledge that is not from the original source.
Thirdhand refers to information or knowledge that is quite far removed from the original source.

I doubt GJ would agree that his direct dealings with the props in the late 1960's would constitute a far removed experience.

Be that as it may, leaning on his far removed experience is still closer than relying on a steadfast denial because you haven't been convinced.

HeroComm's current position, without context, does nothing to change my opinion as they have not proffered any additional proof than Heritage has to date. Given they made clear a concern over litigation and the lack of bidding activity for the first half of the auction, it is possible Heritage confronted HC about making a public statement. I realize this is just conjecture, but it's plausible.

 

[asalaw]

To know of something firsthand means the information is obtained from the original source or from personal experience.
Secondhand refers to information or knowledge that is not from the original source.
Thirdhand refers to information or knowledge that is quite far removed from the original source.

I doubt GJ would agree that his direct dealings with the props in the late 1960's would constitute a far removed experience.

Be that as it may, leaning on his far removed experience is still closer than relying on a steadfast denial because you haven't been convinced.

HeroComm's current position, without context, does nothing to change my opinion as they have not proffered any additional proof than Heritage has to date. Given they made clear a concern over litigation and the lack of bidding activity for the first half of the auction, it is possible Heritage confronted HC about making a public statement. I realize this is just conjecture, but it's plausible.

Or, in the alternative, given Herocomm's level of access in the prop world, it may be that they have new information that we don't have access to.

Also withdrawn.

 

[USS Endeav]

Or, in the alternative, given Herocomm's level of access in the prop world, it may be that they have new information that we don't have access to.

Possibly. What seems disingenuous is Heritage and now HeroComm making assertions without offering the proof. Absent screen matching, it is a tall order to ask anyone to believe it is a screen used prop. Generally, the litmus test for a screen used asset is to reconcile that claim with a ----screen shot match. This prop has not had that offered by the seller/owner, Heritage, GJ and HC. No one from the community has been able to screen match it either.

A claim of production made is plausible but that is not the claim Heritage is making. As has been pointed out, the burden of proof is on the claimant. That claim being this is a screen used prop. If this were any other prop, we wouldn't be discussing anything other than "Have you matched it to a scene" and can it be identified based on that scene.

What Heritage has done is play a game of 3 card monty by switching the focus from screen matching a screen used prop to focusing on its construction. The focus should switch back to what would hold true for any screen used prop of this magnitude, has it been matched to a scene.

 

[Bigdaddy]

To know of something firsthand means the information is obtained from the original source or from personal experience.
Secondhand refers to information or knowledge that is not from the original source.
Thirdhand refers to information or knowledge that is quite far removed from the original source.

I doubt GJ would agree that his direct dealings with the props in the late 1960's would constitute a far removed experience.

Be that as it may, leaning on his far removed experience is still closer than relying on a steadfast denial because you haven't been convinced.

HeroComm's current position, without context, does nothing to change my opinion as they have not proffered any additional proof than Heritage has to date. Given they made clear a concern over litigation and the lack of bidding activity for the first half of the auction, it is possible Heritage confronted HC about making a public statement. I realize this is just conjecture, but it's plausible.

GJ: first hand
HA: second hand
USS Endeav: third hand
That's how it came to me, the existence of the statement becomes a whole new claim.

I'm not aware of a publicly available statement from any experts GJ or otherwise pertaining to the production of more than 4 hero props. Even the existence of such a statement would not be sufficient evidence to lend relevance to the claim anyway, since that level of information is outside Mr Jein's wheelhouse.

If I assert that the teapot on my counter (currently selling for $100,000 )was in orbit in 1969 and my evidence is an opinion from Neil deGrasse Tyson, it seems reasonable to want to see the statement. Even if the statement and opinion was genuine, he wouldn't have first hand knowledge of the space program activities in 1969. Only an opinion that should be examined skeptically, based on the lack of any evidence lending credence to the claim about the teapot.

 

[GrenadeKing]

Big news-- Herocomm has changed their position on the authenticity of the phaser. See here on their phaser page. Given this new development and Herocomm's track record and reputation, I accept their opinion that the phaser is very likely a fifth hero from the show.

Without further information, I call BS. The story doesn't add up and the details don't add up. This whole tale has been all kinds of shady from the get go and this combined with the prior legal threats from several parties doesn't do anything to make it seem less so. Unless these "experts" want to share whatever knowledge they seem to have gained that no one else has, I shall remain unconvinced.

 

[genZOD]

Or, in the alternative, given Herocomm's level of access in the prop world, it may be that they have new information that we don't have access to.

You'd think people trying to sell a historically significant prop would share all the information that they have with potential buyers. That information is, quite literally, very valuable. Better authentication equals a higher value... unless...

 

[Trekfan]

I am so disappointed in Herocomm. What a bunch of crap. Their own site shows the invoice for the 4 hero phasers. Now, without any more info they just post this as an accomplished fact: Hero #5. Herocomm is all about screen matching and detailed research. Instead, they do none of this and drop this turd onto their site:

"This recently discovered hero has been authenticated, after an extensive side-by-side comparison with his hero, by Greg Jein and three of his most trusted colleagues (we know who they are, and their credentials are impeccable), and so it is being gladly added to this list."

So, we are just supposed to trust this without any names or details? What is this "we know who they are" nonsense. This is a TV prop, not a military secret. Why can't they just say who authenticated the piece and why they think it is authentic. This stinks.

Seriously, I will never look at Herocomm the same way again. What a letdown. Bunch of phonies.

Show your cards and be honest!

​

 

[robn1]

Their own site shows the invoice for the 4 hero phasers.

That's not an invoice, it's a memo containing an inventory of the phaser props as of 7-14-66. However unlikely it may seem it is entirely possible that more were ordered after the fact (the midgrades came after this memo). None of us can prove that they weren't, which is Endeav's point. If HA has proof that they were I wish they'd release it, I mean what's the big secret?