ghostryder
Legendary Member
Olive Drab next to BB:
Aliens: M41A Pulse Rifle (Brown Bess or Olive Green) perhaps not Brown Bess after all? (light tests and prop pictures and recent Savage video)
- Thread starter Sahare Studios
- Start date
ghostryder
Legendary Member
Here you can see the black overspray on one of the hero props:
This pic shows the original brown bess esque color on the battery next to the incorrectly painted olive ammo drum:
This pic shows the original brown bess esque color on the battery next to the incorrectly painted olive ammo drum:
Having seen so much production material from the film in person, my guess is that they were not very rigid about color-matching and that there was a "spectrum" of military colors that they used to paint all the gear. Sometimes the armory was painting, sometimes props, sometimes art department. And I think that, plus aging, plus restorations has muddied the waters a lot. I will say, seeing that welder in person -- that was one of the first times I said "that's it - that's he color." Even the stunt PRs seem close but not quite.
Sahare Studios
Active Member
It's a shame that most pictures I see where the PR has a brownish color, the picture itself is an old analogue and everything in the picture looks yellow/brown. It's so frustrating to not be able to tell how much of the actual color is reddish brown, and how much is the picture.
This was very enlightening though:
podcasts.apple.com
They have a very deep discussion about the color at the 1:13:15 mark.
00:11:08 Summary of interview with Simon Atherton
This was very enlightening though:
The M41-A Pulse Rifle
Podcast Episode · The Stuff Dreams Are Made Of · 07/10/2021 · 2h 14m
podcasts.apple.com
They have a very deep discussion about the color at the 1:13:15 mark.
The Stuff Dreams Are Made Of: Movie Guns! on Apple Podcasts
Show The Stuff Dreams Are Made Of, Ep Movie Guns! - 14 Oct 2021
podcasts.apple.com
00:11:08 Summary of interview with Simon Atherton
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Sahare Studios
Active Member
Knowing Cameron he may also have had 2 sets. The normal closeup versions like the Frost and Ripley&Hicks scenes. But also slightly lighter tan colored ones for scenes with them running around in the dark. Who knows.
I'm almost inclined to write to Cameron's representative (if I knew who they were).
Something like: "This has been eating away at us for 40 years, much like your Xenomorph, please help out".
How much trouble would it be to send over a picture of a prop hanging on a wall?
ghostryder
Legendary Member
It's a shame that most pictures I see where the PR has a brownish color, the picture itself is an old analogue and everything in the picture looks yellow/brown. It's so frustrating to not be able to tell how much of the actual color is reddish brown, and how much is the picture.
This was very enlightening though:
The M41-A Pulse Rifle
Podcast Episode · The Stuff Dreams Are Made Of · 07/10/2021 · 2h 14m
They have a very deep discussion about the color at the 1:13:15 mark.
Oh, like THOSE guys would know.
Sahare Studios
Active Member
I don't really know who they are as I have to admit being a total noob with all of this. I'm getting a feeling I opened a whole can of worms
On an unrelated note, I posted this on the Romulus Pulse Rifle thread. Maybe people here would find it interesting as well:
This is a personal opinion on why I believe the Aliens 1986 Pulse Rifle is so iconic to this day. Being a designer I'm familiar with the golden ratio (1.618, or approximately 60 percent). A lot of the, angles and ratios in the original pulse rifle are in a golden ratio. In fact, almost everything on the rifle is in a 2/3rds ratio, not precisely, but generally. Also, the design doesn't have any "greeblies" or details added with no obvious funtion. Even the pyramid shaped "tab" forward and above the digital counter for example is a metal tab to hold the shroud together, same as the one forward of the stock.
Thought like minded designers might find this interesting.
Again, just my opinion.
On an unrelated note, I posted this on the Romulus Pulse Rifle thread. Maybe people here would find it interesting as well:
This is a personal opinion on why I believe the Aliens 1986 Pulse Rifle is so iconic to this day. Being a designer I'm familiar with the golden ratio (1.618, or approximately 60 percent). A lot of the, angles and ratios in the original pulse rifle are in a golden ratio. In fact, almost everything on the rifle is in a 2/3rds ratio, not precisely, but generally. Also, the design doesn't have any "greeblies" or details added with no obvious funtion. Even the pyramid shaped "tab" forward and above the digital counter for example is a metal tab to hold the shroud together, same as the one forward of the stock.
Thought like minded designers might find this interesting.
Again, just my opinion.
ghostryder
Legendary Member
I don't really know who they are as I have to admit being a total noob with all of this. I'm getting a feeling I opened a whole can of worms
On an unrelated note, I posted this on the Romulus Pulse Rifle thread. Maybe people here would find it interesting as well:
This is a personal opinion on why I believe the Aliens 1986 Pulse Rifle is so iconic to this day. Being a designer I'm familiar with the golden ratio (1.618, or approximately 60 percent). A lot of the, angles and ratios in the original pulse rifle are in a golden ratio. In fact, almost everything on the rifle is in a 2/3rds ratio, not precisely, but generally. Also, the design doesn't have any "greeblies" or details added with no obvious funtion. Even the pyramid shaped "tab" forward and above the digital counter for example is a metal tab to hold the shroud together, same as the one forward of the stock.
Thought like minded designers might find this interesting.
View attachment 1822873
Again, just my opinion.
I was being facetious - I was one of the two on Riskbreaker's (and David's) podcast, along with my friend Harry Harris
Sahare Studios
Active Member
Here's another question. Has anyone done a comparison between the color of the PR shrouds in relation to the standard OD t-Shirts the marines are wearing in the same scenes? Like the mess hall scene or the scene with Frost with the PR?
Sahare Studios
Active Member
This is interesting, a video of the original CRT motion tracker:
Mozzie
New Member
Just to add to more traumatic brain injuries to this debate.
Consider that common filmstock of the 80s aren't wavelength accurate the way a digital sensor can be (or archival film stocks) meaning that common consumer photos would be using emulsions designed by kodak, Fuji to make human faces more appealing, aka warming up browns to remove a "sickly" green from complexions.
Without knowing the exact color space transform (what those colorswatch are for!) it's basically impossible to know what is actually green or brown when they are so close to eachother and in such dimmly lit, high speed film print images.
Consider that common filmstock of the 80s aren't wavelength accurate the way a digital sensor can be (or archival film stocks) meaning that common consumer photos would be using emulsions designed by kodak, Fuji to make human faces more appealing, aka warming up browns to remove a "sickly" green from complexions.
Without knowing the exact color space transform (what those colorswatch are for!) it's basically impossible to know what is actually green or brown when they are so close to eachother and in such dimmly lit, high speed film print images.
Metalalien
Sr Member
Mozzie
New Member
Another complexity of all this is that aliens was filmed with Eastman 400T 5294 which is has a very uneven color response.
Old cinematography.com post about it:
cinematography.com
If someone really wants to punish your brain you can look at the stock's data sheet.
Then you have to guess what kind of lightsource the frame was lit with, then if there was any camera filtration, then what the printer lights were used in the transfer, and then the positive print stock!
Madness.
Old cinematography.com post about it:
Kodak 5294 (and 5293)
Going through some articles in old editions of American Cinematographer (available through Questia subscription), I tried to find the filmstocks used for some 80s movies, and what I was surprised was to find that Fright Night was all done on 5294. I haven't seen Fright Night in theater, but the d...
cinematography.com
If someone really wants to punish your brain you can look at the stock's data sheet.
Then you have to guess what kind of lightsource the frame was lit with, then if there was any camera filtration, then what the printer lights were used in the transfer, and then the positive print stock!
Madness.
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Sahare Studios
Active Member
I think there is another out of the box way of looking at this.
Compare the color of the pulse rifles to the military issue tshirts all the marines are wearing. Those tshirts (as far as I know) were never made in brown but are all olive drab. The rifles look pretty much the same color.
Compare the color of the pulse rifles to the military issue tshirts all the marines are wearing. Those tshirts (as far as I know) were never made in brown but are all olive drab. The rifles look pretty much the same color.
Sahare Studios
Active Member
To be honest, this this is Olive Drabish
This settles it for me man. These things were Olive Drab. Compare Adam's brown bess M41A replica with the screen used welder and the screen used Motion Tracker. Both are simply Olive Drab. This also makes sense as in Aliens the weapons and tools are the same exact same shade of OD as the green marines T-Shirts and military caps (which were never produced in a brown variant). This is in line with my light and color value analysis on the first post here.
It could be that Cameron, for nuance, had certain shades of brown bess sprayed on them in arbitrary locations to deepen the paint job or add nuance or variety. There are little patches of BB here and there, but the overall objects are OD. Mind you there is a considerable level of darkening of the paint with age.
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ghostryder
Legendary Member
Are you talking about the motion trackers specifically, or all Aliens props?
Sahare Studios
Active Member
I guess seeing as the screen used motion tracker and welder are OD I don't see a reason the pulse rifle wouldn't be. But that's my own opinion.
ghostryder
Legendary Member
Yeah, not sure how you reconcile that with the fact none of the surviving Pulse Rifles are olive drab.
I mean, I get it - different manufacturers can't even pin down a definitive version of RAL 7013:
fwiw:
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