Alien: Covenant (Prometheus Sequel)

Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

It’s a film that contains some incredibly clumsy mistakes but it manages ,as Art Andrews has pointed out previously , to generate some remarkably good discussions.I I’ve never had a film force me to think about what I’ve seen more than this and that has become quite enjoyable.

I really think this was dumb luck on their part instead of brilliance, but the fact that we have and are willing to talk about this so much speaks to something deeper in this film. There are plenty of stupid or poorly conceived films out there that we see, deride and dismiss. However, there is something about Prometheus that keeps us coming back again and again and again. Remind me a bit of the way people talk about BladeRunner (now there is a movie I have never been able to enjoy).
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Earlier someone said that Ridley Scott had gotten soft in his old age and was lacking a bit of the nihilism we see in ALIEN. The more I think about that the more I disagree. What is more depressing? To learn that there is no God at all? Or to learn that a god exists, but he is plain, unimpressive and doesn't have the answers we all so desperately want, expect to tell us we were a minor lab test? That is pretty harsh stuff right there, no matter what your belief system.
And that's why I LOVE Forever Free, Joe Haldeman's long-awaited sequel to The Forever War. Without completely spoiling the plot for those that have never read it, Haldeman gives us a similar idea, that of "God" as extraterrestrial scientist, and our universe, and by extension US, as merely an experiment in his laboratory. It's great stuff... unless you're devoutly religious. ;)
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

We finally meet them in hopes of getting those answers and so much more as well as to find out for our purpose and place in the universe.... only to find that 1) our creators aren't truly the gods we envisioned, aren't all that impressive and even worse 2) they don't have all the answers we seek and 3) we discover that we don't have a greater purpose in the universe. They just created us because they could.

This is where I guess I get hung up. When I think "Gods" I think more on a spiritual plane. Ironic since I'm pretty far from being a religious person. Meeting your maker and meeting your "God" are two different things to me. Your parents are your makers... they mixed up the ingredients to produce you. The engineers are our parents on a deeper, genetic level. Except, since our DNA matches theirs... are they really even our makers. That's never answered. It's assumed.

I think some of the best parts of this movie are David and Halloway's dialogs.
Charlie Holloway: What we hoped to achieve was to meet our makers. To get answers. Why they even made us in the first place.
David: Why do you think your people made me?
Charlie Holloway: We made you because we could.
David: Can you imagine how disappointing it would be for you to hear the same thing from your creator?
Charlie Holloway: I guess it's good you can't be disappointed.

Could that be one of the underlying themes of this... how man is so matter-of-fact about the greatness he achieves and how everything man makes is essentially for self gratification and is ultimately disposable and has no real worth or emotional value? The same being applied to the engineers. They created us... and want to destroy us. Why? Nobody knows. Maybe for the same reason a child beaks its toys. It gets bored with it, sees no worth in it and disposes of it.
The part I don't get is why? The ancient drawings indicate the engineers visited various civilizations... to check up on their experiment? So at what point did they decide, "Meh... these things are lame. Let's try something else."

David is without a doubt the best character in this movie. But it's hard to understand how he can do what he does. Clearly the earlier generations weren't programmed with the laws of robotics... they always were a bit "twitchy". But it seems like they are more than just Weyland drones with the express purpose of delivering for the company. David seems to almost have his own agenda. Or maybe he's just bored or child like and treats people with the same amount of respect as they treat him.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Arts Andrew
[This is interesting to think about but I think you might be reading too much into it, especially if you take the deleted scene into consideration. The sacrificial engineer knew what he was doing and he clearly wasn't forced. He saw the ship leaving before he drank which meant he knew he was never going back. I think the pain might have surprised him but not what happened.]

Art, its precisely because they choose to loose the alternate multiple Engineers version and kept the single person that makes it feel far less like a willing sacrifice to me and more a scientific experiment. The " religious " overtones are immediately lessened.
And when nobody else wants to be around when the substance in the cup is exposed to the atmosphere (note the same thing happens when the ampule room /head was opened /exposed to the air and it becomes highly active), even though it seems to need to be ingested to work at a cellular level, it suggests a calculated act.
Also sacrifices are more commonly viewed in groups because thats the precise purpose of the ceremony and I cannot help but feel by the expression on his face, that that engineer looks like he is being abandoned to his fate by ship crewed with beings who simply don't care.
That he also doesn't make any religious like gestures, signs, chants nor prayers before he performs the final act which results in his terrible death is even stranger when you think about it.
And if the Engineers can so easily create life easily why would one of them be so keen to waste his own? It seemed an uncommonly nasty and painful way to die . "Sacrifices" always seem to fall to the next poor unfortunate thing down the food chain rather than the actual being performing the ceremony ie the sheep ,calf, goat , chicken and often your defeated enemy much rather than your self.
And I 'm sure they should have discovered a painless way to do it, ie anesthetics, alcohol or a swift bump on the head to render unconsciousnesses, rather than suffer a horribly painful but rapid disintegration.
Which is also why I don't think much to the level of the Engineers intelligence. Holloway choose death by flamethrower rather than a bullet to the head then being burned. The crew of the Prometheus and the Engineers are so similar its almost impossible for me to think these are "godheads" and more like workers.
But hey its all a game of smoke and an infinite number of mirrors until the writers and Ridley actually decide to tell us whats happening or not. I just hope they think it out rather than trust to dumb luck like you said.
 
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Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

I really think this was dumb luck on their part instead of brilliance, but the fact that we have and are willing to talk about this so much speaks to something deeper in this film. There are plenty of stupid or poorly conceived films out there that we see, deride and dismiss. However, there is something about Prometheus that keeps us coming back again and again and again. Remind me a bit of the way people talk about BladeRunner (now there is a movie I have never been able to enjoy).

But deeper by design, or do you think most of the discussion stems from those who see Prometheus as a missed opportunity? While there were elements I loved (like the production design), I feel like it should have been great, but it just... wasn't.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

But deeper by design, or do you think most of the discussion stems from those who see Prometheus as a missed opportunity? While there were elements I loved (like the production design), I feel like it should have been great, but it just... wasn't.

I think a bit of both. There were definitely a LOT of people who had very high expecations for this film who were let down, but again, it seems that most movies that aren't that good are booed and then people move on. In this case, people have continued to discuss and discuss. The only other movie I have seen like that is Star Wars.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

You don't get meaning or significance from who created you. You give your own life meaning and significance by your actions.

Prometheus - We Made You Because We Could - YouTube

Sometimes there is no answer, or there is an answer that is less than what you wanted it to be. I think the engineers just created humans as cattle to be the base for making the Xenomorphs once humans had been fruitful and multiplied, but who knows.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

In this case, people have continued to discuss and discuss. The only other movie I have seen like that is Star Wars.

Art, did you have this much discussion with The Matrix series? Either the way we're discussing this, or pre-discussion about how things were going to progress based on the previews?

I remember talking a lot about those movies. Mostly before Reloaded when I saw the previews and trying to figure out how the movie was going to play out and definitely after the movie trying to figure out what the hell I just saw and then the previews for the next movie.


PS: I'm watching Prometheus again now and the deleted scenes with commentary. I liked the original Fifield monster better.

I also love the alternate version of the final dialogue between Shaw and David...
"They changed their minds. I deserve to know why."
"Does it matter why they changed their minds?"
"Yeah. Yes it does."
"I don't understand."
"I guess that's because I'm a human being... and you're a ****ing robot."
The way she picks his head up and shoves it in the bag completely changes the scene and relationship between them. In the theatrical cut she seems more sympathetic and gentle, apologizing for having to zip the bag closed on his face. In this version it seems like she obviously still holds a lot of malice toward him, probably because he petty much killed Holloway. SO much different. I'm not sure which one I like more.
 
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Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

A buddy of mine had an interesting theory - the Engineers wanted habitable planets, but so few were suitable. They went around very slowly terraforming them until the biosphere was just right. Humans are like the pop-up timers on a turkey: when we show up at the Engineers' doorstep, they know the planet's ready. Then they wipe us out and take over the lease.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

I still want another Blade Runner. Anything else he is working on is just taking time away from getting my dystopian cyber punk future noir fix.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

I still want another Blade Runner. Anything else he is working on is just taking time away from getting my dystopian cyber punk future noir fix.

It does seem like instead of doing the next logical step, Ridley is purposely starting series or other projects because he can. I'd love to see Paradise but it'll probably be another mild disappointment.
 
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