Alien: Covenant (Prometheus Sequel)

Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Do you think those who produced Prometheus, err, let's just say Ridley Scott, can take a step back, look at the completed film with their arms crossed and confidently say: "Yes. This is exactly the film and story I wanted to tell." I feel like we've gotten all sorts of varying answers from the major players...

Not sure of that makes sense, it did in my head when I typed it, lol...
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Interesting question. I wonder how many film makers actually do that or do they see through the compromises?
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

I can't imagine him honestly saying this is the story he "wanted" to tell... but perhaps that is part of the problem and part of what everyone is taking issue with. I think, at best, there was a desire to return to the ALIEN universe, but it started with that... a desire to return to that universe, not with a new story to tell that worked in that universe. Does that make sense?

"Let's do a movie in the ALIEN universe... hmmmm... what story should we tell?"

instead of:

"I have an amazing story that I think would fit perfectly in the ALIEN universe."

It reminds me of a problem I see a lot of times with people who want to do something in this hobby. They start with:

"I want to do something in the hobby. What should I do?"

Those people always flounder as opposed to the people who say:

"I have this amazing idea that I can offer in the prop community."

As weird as it sounds, I feel like you have to start with the idea, not the desire.

Do you think those who produced Prometheus, err, let's just say Ridley Scott, can take a step back, look at the completed film with their arms crossed and confidently say: "Yes. This is exactly the film and story I wanted to tell." I feel like we've gotten all sorts of varying answers from the major players...

Not sure of that makes sense, it did in my head when I typed it, lol...
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

As weird as it sounds, I feel like you have to start with the idea, not the desire.

Totally agree. I mean, take Alien 3 for example (or Terminator 3, or several other 3's and 4s) - the DESIRE was there to do a sequel, and yet no one had an idea worthy of what had come before. Which is kinda ironic since Aliens left audiences with one of the greatest lay ups in cinema history and, well, we all know what happened... Can you imagine what we might have gotten if they had just taken the time and not put the release date ahead of the story...
 
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Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Like if Spielberg were to make a Jaws sequel that retconned the original shark as a bio-suit piloted by a mad scientist with a beef against Amity Island residents.

Funny you should say that. When I was a kid I remember seeing The Love Bug at the drive-in and Jaws was playing behind us. I asked my mom what that movie was about. She said it was about a shark. I asked her if it was a real shark and she said no, it was a robot. So I thought she meant someone in the movie made a robot shark to eat people. And I operated under that false belief for a long time. When I saw it later in life I was all confused.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

^ :D

I can remember having a confused time with The Black Hole - 'so evil Dr Reindhardt is actually Maximillian's shell???' Not quite grasping that Schell was the actor.
I blame it on the weird last shot of Reindhardt's eyes staring out from the evil robot which kind of threw me.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

A special edition of the film (?) and DVD where it appears they just want to throw out more ideas to us like petrol onto the bonfires of debate and wait to see which one is the best liked. I wonder what will be so special (apart from the speculation) about this DVD. I thought the bluray documentaries were extremely comprehensive as it was.
Personally, the storyline I prefer is one where the Engineers are a subspecies that attempt to recreate their own planetary dominions against the edicts of their society. It certainly helps to explain why nothing else has bothered to look in on us for two thousand years since their deaths, why their base was so isolated, primitive and left abandoned until we arrived to investigate . Every time I watch the DVD I am struck by just how ordinary the “Engineers” seem to be (other than their size and strength). Its quite hard to differentiate them from the crew of the Prometheus in terms of behaviours and they seem restricted to be doing simple grunt work.
In fact the reactivated Engineer seems totally human in his reactions, no super brain at all.He is “panicked” into violent action when he witnesses scientifically advanced human beings have been able to achieve spaceflight, decode Engineer language and ship controls, but doing so through an advanced robotic intelligence, David.He tears his head immediately ,attacks and kill everyone else and sets out on the original mission to deliver that payload of ampules to change humanity into something not so “mankindish.” They look less like gods and more like huge work horse drones to me. Perhaps the idea was to allow mankind to multiply until they could be converted into “Engineers” who could then be led into a rebellion against their “Gods/ ruling species”. Perhaps the engineers themselves are merely made to look like human beings for a similar purpose ie we humanity will follow and worship them. After all, blindly following the leader does seem to be part of the human condition. After all, if a worm can become a giant snake, then a human being similarly enhanced (within the confines of its biology) to become an engineer.
What does an engineer evolve to be?
Remember the Engineers are given that description by Shaw and Holloway based on their thesis that several images of giant humanoid figures pointing to a specific planetary configuration suggests humankind was designed by them and we are being invited to visit them (when we can). Reach for the stars ,they are your destiny! Or it could be simply them saying, this is where we came from.
Take the initial opening scene of the engineer apparently “sacrificing” himself by a waterfall . I’ve played that sequence muted, no music to colour perception, and also with other soundtracks playing in the background (even parts of the original Alien score), and its surprising just how different that event feels with that backing. Try it and see.
Was his death a willing surrender, a sacrifice knowingly performed for the noble purposes of his race?
Or was it a “poisoned experimental chalice” where the substance within the cup had a far different outcome to the one expected on his physiology. Clearly nobody else wanted to find out ,they were off in their spaceship. Interestingly a very differently designed ship to the juggernauts. Fear of contamination? Or an “overlord ” species ship
Perhaps it was a “criminal” death sentence, where a rogue “engineer,” perhaps one of several now placed strategically around the planet, is forced to kill himself to right a terrible wrong they had perpetrated. While the list is not endless, I can come with half a dozen different explanations that similarly substantially change the premise behind the rest of the film.
And that same “multiple” reasoning can be applied to most of the other events through the film. Is the opening originally on Earth or another planet? Why do they need ampules as a delivery system of the gru to the human race when before it required only a single engineer to drink and then collapse into pieces to infect a whole ecosystem. You can just open question after question building on the differentiating answers.
This is the real reason I find Prometheus so frustrating. Its clear from the emphasis placed on the editing on some scenes and the complete removal of others that it seems to have been done intentionally to leave the first story in the trilogy much more open to redirection in the sequels, as Ridley said near time of release last year, even further away from Alien if they are allowed to.
Given all the post film flack that has been flying about what was written and what was changed and who is responsible I can see why finding a proper structure for the sequels is going to be a demanding task. Because no matter what they do now it will be at odds with the many theories constructed by the audience left in absenteeism of any definitive storyline from the first film. So imagine what this thread will be like if they get it horribly wrong. Then I guess we will be posting even more in this thread.
 
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Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Every time I watch the DVD I am struck by just how ordinary the “Engineers” seem to be (other than their size and strength). Its quite hard to differentiate them from the crew of the Prometheus in terms of behaviours and they seem restricted to be doing simple grunt work.

Grunts... which Janek says this place is some kind of military outpost. What I don't like is how the writers explain things through the guesses and assumptions of the humans who really don't know squat.

but doing so through an advanced robotic intelligence, David.He tears his head immediately

How did he know David was a robot? Maybe the engineers are just basic... "Hulk smash"!!

They look less like gods and more like huge work horse drones to me. Perhaps the idea was to allow mankind to multiply until they could be converted into “Engineers” who could then lead a rebellion against their “Gods”. Perhaps the engineers themselves are merely made to look like human beings for a similar purpose. After all, if a worm can become a giant snake, then a human being similarly enhanced (within the confines of its biology) to become an engineer.

I like this. Because the worm has the same milky white skin as the engineer. Granted the worm grew exponentially larger than engineer was to the humans. Holloway was all milky looking when he was torched. That would be a pretty awesome explanation... the engineers ARE us.

Take the initial opening scene of the engineer apparently “sacrificing” himself by a waterfall . I’ve played that sequence muted, no music to colour perception, and also with other soundtracks playing in the background (even parts of the original Alien score), and its surprising just how different that event feels with that backing. Try it and see.
Was his death a willing surrender, a sacrifice knowingly performed for the noble purposes of his race?
Or was it a “poisoned experimental chalice” where the substance within the cup had a far different outcome to the one expected on his physiology.

I've thought that as well. His initial reaction seems almost surprise. If he knew he was making a sacrifice for some great good I'm not sure he could have masked his pain any differently as he was dissolved but my first impression was "Hey!! You tricked me!!"

Clearly nobody else wanted to find out ,they were off in their spaceship. Interestingly a very differently designed ship to the juggernauts. Fear of contamination? Or an “overlord ” species ship

Wondered that as well. Maybe the people piloting THAT spaceship are the Gods that Shaw will be tracking down in the next movie.

Why do they need ampules as a delivery system of the gru to the human race when before it required only a single engineer to drink and then collapse into pieces to infect a whole ecosystem. You can just open question after question building on the differentiating answers.

I think the planet was devoid of any life whatsoever and the engineer's sacrifice was him seeding/germinating the planet with black-goo modified DNA.


Given all the post film flack that has been flying about what was written and what was changed and who is responsible I can see why finding a proper structure for the sequels is going to be a demanding task. Because no matter what they do now it will be at odds with the many theories constructed by the audience left in absenteeism of any definitive storyline from the first film. So imagine what this thread will be like if they get it horribly wrong. Then I guess we will be posting even more in this thread.

Honestly I think the writing was just half-assed. I think we give them far more credit than they're due and they really don't think these movies out in the depth that a true fan does. They do stuff because they visualize it on the screen as looking cool and hoping they make them numb masses of ticket buyers go "oooo ahhh". They plug in familiar elements from the original movie(s), but these days a prequel isn't really the telling of an earlier story... it's a retcon of a later story with the hopes that everything matches up. Star Wars being the example of the grandest scale. Add into the mix that studio execs have a certain degree of "creative"control over movies and that just dooms them even further.

Prometheus was fun to watch... and if you turn your brain off and drool the way Hollywood intended you to it's enjoyable. If you go into it expecting to extract something intelligent, you probably made a mistake.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Really not a whole lot to this "story":

Prometheus sequel to feature robot-aliens?

Is there another Blu-ray version coming out?

Ugh.

“Ridley always wanted to tell a parallel story [to ‘Alien’],” says Spaihts in a featurette. “He knew it would take at least two films.”

Smacks of the stuff we were told during the Special Editions about how this was George's original vision...

Everything about that article seems sensationalist.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Swede, if only I could. I would consider doing just about absolutely anything, short of the attempted kidnapping of Ridley ,in order to sit down with him and discuss Prometheus. I doubt there are few people in this world ,other than the other regular posters in this and the other Prometheus thread that have spent so much time trying to make a workable explanation from the story.
I only saw the film once at the cinema my reaction was so strongly negative. The bad science upset me, but then I’ve always been ever so slightly interested in planetary studies, particularly the possibilities of none terrestrial biology.
Since then I’ve watched the DVD more times than I care to count, breaking it down scene by scene to come up with workable solutions. I have three storylines that now satisfy me, a couple of the basics of which are included in my last post. One works particularly well for me because it beautifully ties both David and Shaws redemptive story arcs to that of the flaws within both their characters and understanding, and it parallels both the desires of Weyland and his Company to dominate the worlds they create to that of the true nature and purpose of what the “Engineers” were intending to achieve.
Father, thanks for the feedback. After my initial incredulous reaction to Prometheus I feel after many subsequent viewings there is actually the bare bones of a very cleverly done sequel in the first. It’s a film that contains some incredibly clumsy mistakes but it manages ,as Art Andrews has pointed out previously , to generate some remarkably good discussions.I I’ve never had a film force me to think about what I’ve seen more than this and that has become quite enjoyable. It certainly did well enough at the box office by taking over three times its not inconsiderable budget. And despite some basic flaws and the lack of a conclusive storyline it still has some of the most breathtaking film visuals and designs I have seen in a sci fi film for years. Its just the storyline drives me slightly mad.
I just hope to God they take their time and get a lot of input before making a final decision. Because a successful and well thought out sequel will totally alter the perception of the first film, and I would really like to see a success for Ridley ,all the people who worked on the original and the sake of everyone whose ever seen the film and debated it .
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Every time I watch the DVD I am struck by just how ordinary the “Engineers” seem to be (other than their size and strength). Its quite hard to differentiate them from the crew of the Prometheus in terms of behaviours and they seem restricted to be doing simple grunt work.
In fact the reactivated Engineer seems totally human in his reactions, no super brain at all.He is “panicked” into violent action when he witnesses scientifically advanced human beings have been able to achieve spaceflight, decode Engineer language and ship controls, but doing so through an advanced robotic intelligence, David.He tears his head immediately ,attacks and kill everyone else and sets out on the original mission to deliver that payload of ampules to change humanity into something not so “mankindish.” They look less like gods and more like huge work horse drones to me.

But isn't that a very specific and purposeful part of this story of infinite mirrors? The Engineers are our creators and we have always believed that our creators had all the answers. We finally meet them in hopes of getting those answers and so much more as well as to find out for our purpose and place in the universe.... only to find that 1) our creators aren't truly the gods we envisioned, aren't all that impressive and even worse 2) they don't have all the answers we seek and 3) we discover that we don't have a greater purpose in the universe. They just created us because they could. Some of this is conjecture, but I am picking it up from David's feelings about his creators and how banal he finds us. Earlier someone said that Ridley Scott had gotten soft in his old age and was lacking a bit of the nihilism we see in ALIEN. The more I think about that the more I disagree. What is more depressing? To learn that there is no God at all? Or to learn that a god exists, but he is plain, unimpressive and doesn't have the answers we all so desperately want, expect to tell us we were a minor lab test? That is pretty harsh stuff right there, no matter what your belief system.

Perhaps the idea was to allow mankind to multiply until they could be converted into “Engineers” who could then be led into a rebellion against their “Gods/ ruling species”. Perhaps the engineers themselves are merely made to look like human beings for a similar purpose ie we humanity will follow and worship them. After all, blindly following the leader does seem to be part of the human condition.

I think this is little more than a Biblical reference about God making man in His own image and a nod to the fact that when we create, we also often create in our own image, such as with David. More of that infinite mirrors thing.


Was his death a willing surrender, a sacrifice knowingly performed for the noble purposes of his race?
Or was it a “poisoned experimental chalice” where the substance within the cup had a far different outcome to the one expected on his physiology. Clearly nobody else wanted to find out ,they were off in their spaceship. Interestingly a very differently designed ship to the juggernauts. Fear of contamination? Or an “overlord ” species ship
Perhaps it was a “criminal” death sentence, where a rogue “engineer,” perhaps one of several now placed strategically around the planet, is forced to kill himself to right a terrible wrong they had perpetrated. While the list is not endless, I can come with half a dozen different explanations that similarly substantially change the premise behind the rest of the film.

This is interesting to think about but I think you might be reading too much into it, especially if you take the deleted scene into consideration. The sacrificial engineer knew what he was doing and he clearly wasn't forced. He saw the ship leaving before he drank which meant he knew he was never going back. I think the pain might have surprised him but not what happened.

Its clear from the emphasis placed on the editing on some scenes and the complete removal of others that it seems to have been done intentionally to leave the first story in the trilogy much more open to redirection in the sequels, as Ridley said near time of release last year, even further away from Alien if they are allowed to.

Everyone knows I love Prometheus, but I reject the notion that the edits left the story more open-ended. The edits (that we know of) didn't leave the story open but only served to make the characters motivations very confusing. The editor of the movie needs to be shot, revived and shot again... and if it is Ridley himself... well, I am sorry, but the editing was an absolute disaster. If the purpose was to make the story more open-ended, they utterly failed to achieve that goal and only achieved creating completely unnecessary confusion about why certain characters (all of whom died and wouldn't matter in terms of a sequel) and why they took the actions they did.

Given all the post film flack that has been flying about what was written and what was changed and who is responsible I can see why finding a proper structure for the sequels is going to be a demanding task. Because no matter what they do now it will be at odds with the many theories constructed by the audience left in absenteeism of any definitive storyline from the first film. So imagine what this thread will be like if they get it horribly wrong. Then I guess we will be posting even more in this thread.

I WANT Paradis to be everything that Prometheus was and then some, but I am just having a lot of doubts that they can make a worthy sequel that doesn't completely crap all over what they set up in Prometheus... but then many feel that is what Prometheus did to ALIEN. There are those mirrors again...
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

How did he know David was a robot? Maybe the engineers are just basic... "Hulk smash"!!

This is discussed in the behind the scenes filming a bit. The engineers are not physical fighters. They aren't ninjas or even have basic fighting skills. When the engineer is awoken, he is confronted with a very strange situation.

Imagine this.

You are sleeping...not just sleeping but that good sleep, the deep, hard kind of sleep where you know you are getting good rest. Suddenly, you are ripped out of that in a very fast and unpleasant manner. You wake up, a little groggy a little confused and a little irritated. As your eyes adjust, there are 4 rats standing in front of you and one begins to tell you that he is a "god" like you and then points to another of the rats and tells you how he created this rat and how that makes him equal to you. All the while, you are thinking "I really have to pee." The rat keeps squeaking away about ruling the universe and on and on and on and pointing to the other rat as if you should be impressed. What is the first and most likely thing you would do after you initial surprise at talking rats? My thought would be that you would simply sweep them away and in your best Chef Ramsay voice say "**** off."
 
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