A proposal for those that do a "run". Thoughts?

[Sulla]

I appreciate the compliments, but when it comes to project runs and sellers that "paved the way", the real kudos go to guys like SD, Ry and bobadebt. These guys know what it is like to put up serious cash time and time again.

They have more experience with deals involving multiple vendors, delays, labor difficulties....ok, that last one was a Lando quote, but you get my meaning

Hear, hear! Long live our pathfinders!

A little personal story...one of my biggest projects ever was my first run of Jayne "troublemaker" tees.

When I have a project run long, in the end, I always, ALWAYS have a couple people say "worth the wait man".

As a proud owner of one of those tee's, it was definitely "worth the wait man." Seriously one of my fav shirts.

I like communication. Updates, emails, PM's, texts, skype, cell calls... but anyone who calls my house phone after my daughter's 8pm bed time is banned from the interwebs until she is 18! :lol

 

[Eaglewood]

so let it be written--so let it be done!!!!

If someone here is doing a run, then he or she should stay in contact with the people if there unforseen circumstances or delays and let them know whats up- Just common courtesy-Scheduled updates are not necessary.

 

[exoray]

That said, there is the pont of this vs your "real job". If you've accepted monies for product or service, it IS a real job. If you can't approach it from that point of view, perhaps you shouldn't do it. "Doing it the right way", and all that...

Problem is no one is willing to pay real job rates for these items, thus it's not a real job for most all involved and regardless of money being transferred it usually falls right back to being a hobby, true to definition, not a real job or income... People get way to caught up on money=job that simply isn't the case it's just your view, even with money being exchanged it can still be a hobby... There is no stipulation that you can't make money at a hobby, even the tax man agrees with that principle...

All one has to do it look up the definition of hobby to see this prop community is in fact a hobby for most of us and not a job...

Main Entry: hobby
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural hobbies
Etymology: short for hobbyhorse
Date: 1816
: a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation

I'm not saying that the seller should be totally lax and blow off the customer once any money is exchanged but to expect the same attention level as a real job is a little overboard... Certainly an exchange of money should encourage open communication but to believe that it purchases full devotion is silly...

For me props is not my occupation, it doesn't pay my mortgage, food, car payment and family needs, so it's a hobby in it's truest form, when push comes to shove it will take second fiddle to my real life occupation and income, to believe otherwise is a little naive and selfish...

 

[stormtrooperguy]

seems reasonable to me to ask that the seller post "keep alive" messages.

i've been working through a prop run on the 501st board, and post in there every other day or so. it's been going for 2 months, but i warned people up front that it would have have stayed in touch. so far no complaints!!

 

[Bilious]

I would think it's only polite to let your clients know you're still thinking about them. Sometimes people might feel bad about no progress and so they delay updates until they have more to talk about, but I'm pretty sure most buyers are just anxious that they haven't been forgotten.

Making it a rule seems a little extreme, sometimes life gets busy, but as common etiquette I'd say it's a must-when-ever-possible, even if it's in private over email or something more convenient. That does not mean they should be forced to give day to day updates, but on a job that shouldn't take more than a couple months, a weekly update doesn't sound that invasive.

 

[AJK001]

It may not need to be a hard and fast rule, but I still think anyone that takes money for a project has an obligation to keep people updated about the run, even if they have nothing to say other than I'm still alive.

As for working for a heartless employer because they only give you 3 days off when someone dies, that is standard business practice. Maybe some of you work for people that give you more time, but I'm sure it isn't weeks on end until you get your head back together.

I could care less if I'm rubbing certain people the wrong way because I don't care about their problems. I care about what is happening to them, but that is still not going to make me happy about waiting 2 or 3 months extra time that was never mentioned when the run started. There have been too many people in the Junkyard who have played the death card that it gets old real fast. The run I'm involved in now has had the lost package, death of loved one and moving excuses played on us. These were not excuses from the seller, but from the person he is buying parts from, who has now dropped off the face of the earth. I trust the seller and have told him so.

As I have said before, as soon as you take money, you take it from the personel to the business side of things and anyone who thinks different is just fooling themselves.

 

[Westies14]

A rule's just not the way to go. It should be incumbent on buyers within the hobby to research who they're buying from (just ask around if you're not familiar with a seller) and to be comfortable with who you're giving your money to. In many cases, great communication is what's given a seller their stellar reputation. There are also sellers who I'm comfortable paying without expecting updates or product for months or a year, because they've earned that degree of trust and that's just how they work.

To be fair to armando's original post, people are jumping on all kinds of points outside of what he was asking for. This isn't about unpaid runs, this isn't about missed deadlines or delays ("real life") along the way. He was asking for communication, good or bad news, throughout prepaid runs. While I don't feel a rule is necessary, I'm sure most of us can agree that communication is appreciated in most cases.

I get a kick out of reading this thread, seeing who's posting and what they have to say about this. Some of our best builders/dealers are here, people I'd put in the "okay with no updates for months" list. There's a chronic offender, who updates dishonestly half the time and lashes out at anyone who points out their contradicting themselves (which goes to show a rule wouldn't do much). There's the guy sitting next to me on the train right now, whose highs and lows along the course of a run I feel like I experience firsthand every day (you're a good seller,KJ!). I feel like rhett deserves some recognition - since he named himself already - for being someone I was burned by to some degree in the past and who now handles his runs in a near ideal fashion. Its definitely interesting to see the cross-section of viewpoints!

 

[micdavis]

One other thing about communication.

It goes both ways.

In the last two weeks I've sent out 11 packages, all USPS 3-5 days. Everyone was informed that their item shipped.

Only two out of eleven have contacted me to tell me the item arrived.

Kind of leaves me hangin'.

 

[TheNickFox]

How about this as a compromise, since making this part of the COC seems unlikely:

Users can "opt-in" to a new user level similar to eBay's "power seller," let's call it the "trusted proper." Upon opting in, you are given a badge under your username, similar to the RPF Staff badge. You would then have to verify your REAL address with the RPF (They send you a postcard with a code/word on it and you have to type it into the website to confirm your new user level). By option into this level you would agree to the once a week updates/pictures/whatever, and if you broke this, and users complained, you could be removed from the user level indefinitely, and wouldn't be able to post in the JY for a set amount of time.

This way it wouldn't force every Joe and Jane Prop-maker to keep up constant updates, just those that want to be take seriously. It also gives a way for someone to be tracked down (an address on file) should they completely vanish. It adds accountability on multiple fronts and helps to increase the reputation of the good prop makers out there.

Thoughts?

-Nick

 

[Tan Djarka]

All one has to do it look up the definition of hobby to see this prop community is in fact a hobby for most of us and not a job...

Not this again. I'm not saying you can't make money at a hobby, but when you have customers, down payments, etc, it starts to look like a business, however much or little you make at it. You're right, just becasue you make money doesn't make it a job or business. On the other hand, just because you enjoy doing it or it's not your primary source of income, doesn't mean it's not a business. Ever heard of a "side job"? (And no, it doesn't cost ten bucks, same as downtown).

If you don't take the job... Your job, as seriously as your primary source of income, eventually you're going to screw your customers. You've got the justification down, all you need is the opportunity.

 

[Bilious]

Not this again. I'm not saying you can't make money at a hobby, but when you have customers, down payments, etc, it starts to look like a business, however much or little you make at it. You're right, just becasue you make money doesn't make it a job or business. On the other hand, just because you enjoy doing it or it's not your primary source of income, doesn't mean it's not a business. Ever heard of a "side job"? (And no, it doesn't cost ten bucks, same as downtown).

If you don't take the job... Your job, as seriously as your primary source of income, eventually you're going to screw your customers. You've got the justification down, all you need is the opportunity.

Once you get money for it, it's no longer just a hobby if you're making a profit. XD At least by the definition I've been raised with (coming from 4 generations of professional artists.) Just because to you it's small scale doesn't mean it's not legit. There's a contract (be it over a forum or email, verbal contracts still hold) there's a product or service, and your talents supply the demand. Even if you have a primary job, the "smaller" job is still important.

IN SHORT: I agree with the above and was inspired to ramble.

 

[Rylo]

Okay, now people aren't even reading the original post.

Funky proposed making it a RULE that weekly updates must be provded by those who offer product by way of pre-order on the RPF.

Nobody in their right mind would contest the point that any responsible seller should provide updates to their clients. I mean, who would last if they didn't? Your only as good as your last prop anyway.

Again. Of course a resonsible seller will update their clients. BUT, this is done according to whatever that sellers conditions and time-lines were in the first place.

What you see are long-time sellers like me taking issue with anything that would mandate how I've done things for half of my adult life. If I tell my clients "Up front" they have a 6 week or whatever amount of time to wait for a prop, it would be absolutely absurd for me to be required to chime in weekly with what could only amount to a countdown saying, "Okay, 5 weeks to go, 4 weeks to go, 3 weeks to go, etc."

My clients do not ask this of me and they don't want to be bothered anymore than I do. We're busy people with jobs and families. We just don't live on the boards as Funky claims he does. As I stated in my first post. Everyone with whom I work has a choice. They are made aware up front how I operate and advised NOT to order from me if they take issue with my conditions. Again, they have a choice. It's this way with all sellers and it's up to the buyer to have enough sense to educate themselves prior to entering the agreement.

Speaking for myself, I just provided 25 private updates on a run that's had a build-out time of three months. At no point during this build-out has anyone asked me for updates. Why? Because they knew up front what my time frame was. Did you get that part? THEY KNEW UP FRONT WHAT MY TIME FRAME WAS. A little communication coupled with a rock solid reputation provides peace of mind.

Now, I chose to update today as a courtesy since I'm a little off my window...I've received nothing but thank-you's and "Take your time bro, etc."

Why exactly do I have such a healthy relationship with my clients? Simple. Because I communicate and we have an understanding up front. I get my people and they get me. Quite frankly, I don't want the fragile guy who can't be pleased or needs his hand held...They can chase the stuff on Ebay for twice the price if they're that fragile.

The point I'm making is. I've offered as much (if not more) product on the RPF over the years than most and I've never really had a single issue. As a responsible prop maker I hardly need Funky's mandate hanging over my head.

The problem here is clear. You have a couple fragile buyers who want a constant vigil held over the order process so that EVERY builder is locked into strick compliance with a code they find comforting. They represent the minority and have no clue what it takes to engineer and produce a large private run. Funky has about as much business suggesting how a prop maker should operate as I do advising a neurosurgeon.

I've got a novel idea. If you want a weekly update simply ask the seller if they're willing to give you one. If not...roll on.

You'll find most of us who provide high-end runs aren't going to be keen on giving you the financial breakdown of the weeks events; who we spoke with at the factory today and what the current cost of metal is. I mean that's what happens during the manufacturing process.

What, we have to teach a shop class now and open up the books so Funky can sleep at night? :wacko

C'mon. Communicate with your people, ask a few questions and take some responsibility for your actions as a buyer.

Anyway. I'm done with this topic...make the place what you will, boys.

 

[Rylo]

I hear ya!

One other thing about communication.

It goes both ways.

In the last two weeks I've sent out 11 packages, all USPS 3-5 days. Everyone was informed that their item shipped.

Only two out of eleven have contacted me to tell me the item arrived.

Kind of leaves me hangin'.

 

[Rylo]

One more thing here, guys. Since Funky has wrapped this as a public service I think it should be pointed out that I believe the issue stems from the following thread:http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=79018

Funky recently ordered an item from another seller and complained he wasn't happy with the update process. Well, the seller refunded his deposit and moved along...well, Funky didn't like that either!

The motive behind this movement is a simple one. Funky wanted to complain, get his way and the product. It didn't work out.

After looking at this thread again, I believe this is really just a self-serving battle cry to muscle ALL builders into a contract he considers acceptable.

 

[Mercury]

One more thing here, guys. Since Funky has wrapped this as a public service I think it should be pointed out that I believe the issue stems from the following thread:http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=79018

Funky recently ordered an item from another seller and complained he wasn't happy with the update process. Well, the seller refunded his deposit and moved along...well, Funky didn't like that either!

The motive behind this movement is a simple one. Funky wanted to complain, get his way and the product. It didn't work out.

After looking at this thread again, I believe this is really just a self-serving battle cry to muscle ALL builders into a contract he considers acceptable.

Isn't a deposit meant to insure people don't back out of a run anyway? If the deposit is refunded, then it's of no use in assuring that people who commit stay in. I think anyone who changes their mind should have had to sell their slot, so really Nicksdad went above and beyond as far as customer satisfaction in that respect.

 

[ssdesigner]

One more thing here, guys. Since Funky has wrapped this as a public service I think it should be pointed out that I believe the issue stems from the following thread:http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=79018

Funky recently ordered an item from another seller and complained he wasn't happy with the update process. Well, the seller refunded his deposit and moved along...well, Funky didn't like that either!

The motive behind this movement is a simple one. Funky wanted to complain, get his way and the product. It didn't work out.

After looking at this thread again, I believe this is really just a self-serving battle cry to muscle ALL builders into a contract he considers acceptable.

I've now re-read that thread and, sorry Funky....it's the same treatment you've given me. I thought I was alone, but apparently not. :unsure

Give it some thought Funky...he could have researched 3-4 projects that you signed up for that didn't go exactly how YOU wanted them to go and simply decided it wasn't worth the trouble and added poison you would add by posting and posting in his thread. I don't see ANYTHING unreasonable about his updates in that thread...NONE whatsoever. I'm guessing I hit the nail right on the head, but I'll let Nicksdad speak for himself.

Good, long-time dealers should mean something to people here. I've been here since BEFORE the RPF....selling the whole time.

Find where I've backed out on a project and stole someones money.

I'm going to repeat that....If I've been a thief here and stolen your money, please post so that others can avoid my threads.

If you understand that I take my lumps and lose money on flakey buyers, have a long-term reputation and great track record here on the RPF, front hundreds or THOUSANDS of my own dollars to make a project happen....do you treat me like a newbie seller? I've felt that way here....more than a few times.

It's B.S.....and I'm sorry for being blunt. But there's WAY too much attention being paid to protect the buyers here. The sellers don't earn millions here folks....and they EAT $$$ when buyers flake. You want proof I'll photograph my bins and bins of "extra" t-shirts.

-Ss

 

[stormtrooperguy]

One thing that often comes up is that buyers feel like the sellers are obligated to do things in the manner that they are happy with.

I tend to think of the sellers as doing me a favor, and I appreciate that effort. If I *could* do something myself, I would. So I'm coming to someone else because I can't do it on my own. As such, they are helping me.

I also look at it the same way as a seller. I am helping the person get what they want. If someone gives me a hard time, I'll refund and walk away.