voice in the crowd
Sr Member
Funky Jedi,
Couldn't agree more with your idea :thumbsup
Couldn't agree more with your idea :thumbsup
A proposal for those that do a "run". Thoughts?
- Thread starter Funky
- Start date
Silverhold
Member
As a buyer, I'd say the more communication the better. I'd rather see a weekly post saying "nothing happening this week" than hear nothing at all. What's worse, spending 6 weeks in the dark or seeing 6 weeks of posts showing of no activity that might be a warning sign your deal is about to head south?
The only catch is this - without some sort of penalty for failing to maintaining regular updates, the idea is all bark... :unsure
The only catch is this - without some sort of penalty for failing to maintaining regular updates, the idea is all bark... :unsure
mrsmartypants
Well-Known Member
I totally agree, FJ. Good post.
I think Hotshot epitomizes how to do a proper run here at the RPF. Check out his recent GB Ecto Goggles run: http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=79873&highlight=ecto+goggles.
It sets a great example for all of us to follow. :thumbsup
I think Hotshot epitomizes how to do a proper run here at the RPF. Check out his recent GB Ecto Goggles run: http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=79873&highlight=ecto+goggles.
It sets a great example for all of us to follow. :thumbsup
exoray
Master Member
I have done runs and I have fallen behind, never going to deny that part of it, it gets ugly no matter how good you intentions are... That is why I said sometimes communication can slack but it still needs to be kept up, if there is a single thread it makes it faster and easier to put up a blurp, vs answering 100 emails...
You know at one time I would have sided with you 100%, but now having been on the other side of the fence I have seen the light... I'm not saying that a lot of it isn't BS (I'm sure a great majority is) but I know full well first hand in my face that a cascade of the above like events CAN happen, and CAN start compounding upon each other faster than you can imagine... You will never be able to distinguish the truth from the fibs, but to automatically dismiss it as a fib is jumping to judgment... The last 8 months of my life have been a roller coaster that I wouldn't want to wish on anyone, something I would call flat out BS if someone tried to use it as an excuse, but it's all very real for me...
In a perfect world great, but the world isn't perfect... Have you done a run that took $5000 or $10,000 or more dollars to get off the ground? How did you finance it? Truth is not everyone has that kind of liquid money just laying around, and this hobby would have missed many great runs if the above was followed.... It's not only this hobby it's the whole free market business world, loans, investors, pre-orders that is the way the real world works, unlike the idealistic perfect world ideology...
It would be great if we lived in a perfect world but we simply don't, thus the need for great communications and transparency...
darth_myeek
Sr Member
Posting once per week seems logical.
Guys, thanks for the support. 
Just to be clear...er, if I'm in on a run and have given no money, take five years to make it and give an update once a month, that's cool. I have no money vested in it at the time.
We are not MR, Icons, Sideshow, Weta, blah, blah, blah. We are "Joe the prop builder". No contracts, linemen, formen or inspectors. Just (usually) one guy in his garage cranking stuff out. Real life issues WILL happen, I get it. I'm a reasonable man. Just let me know once a week. However, if you're going to be so serious about this run where you're prepared to take money, you have to be okay with giving deposits back if asked, immediately, without question, if you miss your deadline.
Just to be clear...er, if I'm in on a run and have given no money, take five years to make it and give an update once a month, that's cool. I have no money vested in it at the time.
We are not MR, Icons, Sideshow, Weta, blah, blah, blah. We are "Joe the prop builder". No contracts, linemen, formen or inspectors. Just (usually) one guy in his garage cranking stuff out. Real life issues WILL happen, I get it. I'm a reasonable man. Just let me know once a week. However, if you're going to be so serious about this run where you're prepared to take money, you have to be okay with giving deposits back if asked, immediately, without question, if you miss your deadline.
rollerboi
Sr Member
I'm not sure how I feel about making this mandatory. I would of course highly recommend that anyone doing a run agree to updates, but to require it.. that to me smacks a little bit of overbearing and controlling.
Those who want to be a part of the run should obtain the promise of communication before sending their money in. If said communication fails, they should be able to ask for their money back. If the money is not returned and no communication is forthcoming, don't we already have rules in place for dealing with bad sellers?
Also for the moderation staff to be so intimately involved with the regulation of runs, that seems like it would open the staff up to more liability should a licenseholder feel that their property is being infringed.
Those who want to be a part of the run should obtain the promise of communication before sending their money in. If said communication fails, they should be able to ask for their money back. If the money is not returned and no communication is forthcoming, don't we already have rules in place for dealing with bad sellers?
Also for the moderation staff to be so intimately involved with the regulation of runs, that seems like it would open the staff up to more liability should a licenseholder feel that their property is being infringed.
ave4uevoli
Sr Member
Great in theory - it would definitely give buyers peace of mind...
but if a seller really wanted to screw you they still could - they would just post and post until the time frame to file paypal disputes has expired..
someone instead should institute an insurance policy here. All members have to pay a smidge to be a member - it all gets lumped into a insurance policy. People who do runs have to pay a % of their run to the insurance fund to be allowed to sell. Sellers also have to put 20% of their run into "escrow" which they only get once the run is over. (which shouldn't be too bad considering many sellers now offer payment plans and don't get the remaining balance until the end anyways)
If people get screwed use insurance money to refund buyers- seller loses the percentage that they paid for the fund and 30% of their run - and get their membership revoked.
but if a seller really wanted to screw you they still could - they would just post and post until the time frame to file paypal disputes has expired..
someone instead should institute an insurance policy here. All members have to pay a smidge to be a member - it all gets lumped into a insurance policy. People who do runs have to pay a % of their run to the insurance fund to be allowed to sell. Sellers also have to put 20% of their run into "escrow" which they only get once the run is over. (which shouldn't be too bad considering many sellers now offer payment plans and don't get the remaining balance until the end anyways)
If people get screwed use insurance money to refund buyers- seller loses the percentage that they paid for the fund and 30% of their run - and get their membership revoked.
Having been on the end of seller that runs into deadline troubles, I'd be ok with something suggested as good practice, but to make it a rule with punishment? I dunno about that.
One thing to remember, until you are a seller doing big/costly runs it's really hard to put yourself in their shoes. And, for every run people do they end up EATING a number of pieces/parts due to folks that sign-up and bail out....except, most times it's bad ju-ju for a seller to publicly call them out. It just makes us sellers look bad to be whiny about a few t-shirts....but multiply that times 30-50 shirt runs and you can guess what my basement looks like
It's all about give/take and giving either party the benefit of the doubt whenever possible.
-Ss
One thing to remember, until you are a seller doing big/costly runs it's really hard to put yourself in their shoes. And, for every run people do they end up EATING a number of pieces/parts due to folks that sign-up and bail out....except, most times it's bad ju-ju for a seller to publicly call them out. It just makes us sellers look bad to be whiny about a few t-shirts....but multiply that times 30-50 shirt runs and you can guess what my basement looks like
It's all about give/take and giving either party the benefit of the doubt whenever possible.
-Ss
This is actually an excellent point, one I had not thought of.
exoray
Master Member
YEP! It's a two sided coin, the buyers have to step up to the plate as well, just like seller delays, buyers skipping out is hardly uncommon, in fact it's the norm.... Way too many people have flaked out on runs public or private and like you said it's bad ju-ju for the seller to call them out...
In my experience if I do a run and just gather 'interest' I can expect anywhere from 30-60% of the list totally ignoring any request to full fill their interest when it comes time to pay... With a few more actually having the courage to say that something came up... It's this reason most sellers have started to take deposits...
And as ssdesigner has said it's easy for those that have never organized a run to say how it should be but to be blunt, they have no idea how it really is... I know that sounds harsh but it's a reality, in a perfect world most of us know exactly how it should play out, but in the real work stuff happens on both sides...
Never hurts to bump a thread with an update!
And off I go to do just that....
And off I go to do just that....
A responsible seller will educate their buyer up front as to what they should expect during the order process.
Speaking for myself, (with regard to presales) my regulars know the drill, but I make it a point to advise my new guys up front that I'm not the type of builder who cares to repeat himself every week with 3 word posts like, 'It's coming along!" In fact, I often go as far as saying, "Do not order from me if you're the fragile sort who needs constant updates and reassurance."
This allows my clients to know exactly what they're getting with me. Now, I do of course provide updates when there is something to say or I'm bogged down w/ delays, but this is done privately between me and my clients. I do agree all responsible sellers should have an open dialogue with their clients; that goes without saying.
Look, this is rather simple. If funky wants an update every week, a daily phone call, a twitter update, smoke-signals, whatever when he orders something then he should ask "whomever" with whom he is working if they're willing to do that for him. If not, he can take a polite pass on whatever prop is being offered.
What we have here is a transparent attempt to stoke a movement so that 'Everyone' must appease this threads author.
I for one am apposed to anything or anyone who would attempt to mandate how I've done business for the past 15 years. While I know this thread isn't directed at anyone in particular, I take particular issue with anyone who would suggest how I or any established builder should conduct themselves. Those of us (prop makers) who have survived over the years maintain a healthy productive relationship with our clients and our peers. We're only as good as our reputations and we exhaust ourselves trying to please our clients. I'm offended by the suggestion our actions should be mandated, period.
Threads like this may have a grain of good intent, but they're usually written by people who have no concept at all what it takes to produce a high end run.
Again, Speaking for myself, I produce runs that cost thousands of dollars and in some cases require months of research. My build-outs can take months and require numerous businesses in between to land certain parts. This is 'busy-work' that I neither have the time or the inclination to share in public. In some cases, such public updates can also provide exhibit A, B and C.
I appreciate that my clients are busy and like me DO NOT spend every second on line. I've found that normal, educated buyers will simply e-mail when they have a question or the slightest concern. That's how it should be... simple. Hey, here's an idea. If you're wondering what your builder is up to or where your crap is, drop your seller an e-mail and request he give you a phone call. Communicate.
Have you even considered what it would take to enforce such a rule on the RPF? For starters, an already unpaid staff in a thankless position would have to maintain a constant presence in the junkyard. The RPF would be have to mandate and regulate the manor in which sellers operate. The words mandate and regulate are rather close to, Encourage and Condone...Encourage and Condone are right up there with Culpable and Complicit....Get it?
I've got no problem with you as a person man, but since you hung this thread looking for feedback I figured I'd give you a little. Do you even realize how many builders would flee the RPF if such childish guidelines were ever implemented? I'd be the first to pull my business.
Communicate with your people man. It's a simple process. Hell, I have a couple high-end, open runs right now that I'm getting ready to provide updates on, PRIVATELY. I'm busy enough...the last thing I need is to have to jump through hoops because some guy rubbed you wrong!
Speaking for myself, (with regard to presales) my regulars know the drill, but I make it a point to advise my new guys up front that I'm not the type of builder who cares to repeat himself every week with 3 word posts like, 'It's coming along!" In fact, I often go as far as saying, "Do not order from me if you're the fragile sort who needs constant updates and reassurance."
This allows my clients to know exactly what they're getting with me. Now, I do of course provide updates when there is something to say or I'm bogged down w/ delays, but this is done privately between me and my clients. I do agree all responsible sellers should have an open dialogue with their clients; that goes without saying.
Look, this is rather simple. If funky wants an update every week, a daily phone call, a twitter update, smoke-signals, whatever when he orders something then he should ask "whomever" with whom he is working if they're willing to do that for him. If not, he can take a polite pass on whatever prop is being offered.
What we have here is a transparent attempt to stoke a movement so that 'Everyone' must appease this threads author.
I for one am apposed to anything or anyone who would attempt to mandate how I've done business for the past 15 years. While I know this thread isn't directed at anyone in particular, I take particular issue with anyone who would suggest how I or any established builder should conduct themselves. Those of us (prop makers) who have survived over the years maintain a healthy productive relationship with our clients and our peers. We're only as good as our reputations and we exhaust ourselves trying to please our clients. I'm offended by the suggestion our actions should be mandated, period.
Threads like this may have a grain of good intent, but they're usually written by people who have no concept at all what it takes to produce a high end run.
Again, Speaking for myself, I produce runs that cost thousands of dollars and in some cases require months of research. My build-outs can take months and require numerous businesses in between to land certain parts. This is 'busy-work' that I neither have the time or the inclination to share in public. In some cases, such public updates can also provide exhibit A, B and C.
I appreciate that my clients are busy and like me DO NOT spend every second on line. I've found that normal, educated buyers will simply e-mail when they have a question or the slightest concern. That's how it should be... simple. Hey, here's an idea. If you're wondering what your builder is up to or where your crap is, drop your seller an e-mail and request he give you a phone call. Communicate.
Have you even considered what it would take to enforce such a rule on the RPF? For starters, an already unpaid staff in a thankless position would have to maintain a constant presence in the junkyard. The RPF would be have to mandate and regulate the manor in which sellers operate. The words mandate and regulate are rather close to, Encourage and Condone...Encourage and Condone are right up there with Culpable and Complicit....Get it?
I've got no problem with you as a person man, but since you hung this thread looking for feedback I figured I'd give you a little. Do you even realize how many builders would flee the RPF if such childish guidelines were ever implemented? I'd be the first to pull my business.
Communicate with your people man. It's a simple process. Hell, I have a couple high-end, open runs right now that I'm getting ready to provide updates on, PRIVATELY. I'm busy enough...the last thing I need is to have to jump through hoops because some guy rubbed you wrong!
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exoray
Master Member
Rylo well said, as always communication...
I too don't believe 'rules' of all sorts need to be implemented across the board, but rather just better communication on a one to one basis between the buyer and seller before they enter an agreement to do business with each other... If the buyer and seller agree to a set of 'rules' cool but they shouldn't be forced to IMO...
I too don't believe 'rules' of all sorts need to be implemented across the board, but rather just better communication on a one to one basis between the buyer and seller before they enter an agreement to do business with each other... If the buyer and seller agree to a set of 'rules' cool but they shouldn't be forced to IMO...
Agreed, you'll probably chase off some builders if this is mandated.
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