A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....

[Too Much Garlic]

Well, yes, although I think of it more as just that the TD, SL and TM came from the original ANH mask at different times.

Again. I don't and can't agree with this. The TD and TM connects, if not for the tabs and the blobs on top of the tabs, if not for the details, if not for the grill imprint in the mouth that the TD matches with the VP and the neck extension on the VP matching that of the TM, if not for any of these things... then you cannot dispute the chin vent filler on all three. That's the 100% connecting link between these three helmets showing conclusively that they come from 1 single molding of the original. How they relate to each other and that 1 single master mold (UK mold) is still the unknown. But to elude to the TM and TD being from 2 moldings of the original is just flat out a lie.

The SL is from a completely other mold - the US mold. It doesn't have tabs, it doesn't have the grill imprint, it doesn't have the level chin vent filler - it is recessed. Sure, there's no confirmation yet that the UK mold sported the neck extension, it just seems likely it did... and the US mold doesn't have it as that filling feature wasn't added to the original when it was molded at that second time.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Not all and they may not link back directly to the master we know as the UK mold. There may be missing links between that mold and the casts we discuss - that is still the big unknown that we debate about. At least the funeral pyre helmet in RotJ seems to be of the US mold derivative - seemingly pieces made for tour and promotion (ESB Poster helmet).

So, in your opinion, a combination of the UK and US molds give us various helmets throughout the OT?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I think for the most part they used the UK mold lineage. The funeral pyre helmet was likely just a fluke one they pulled from the archive to burn at Skywalker Ranch when that scene was shot, as they probably didn't have the original helmets. Who knows why they chose an ANH styled helmet that was probably a tour. This is just speculation on my part.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I'm waiting to see if the TMvsTantive picture I posted can be upstaged by a picture of more accuracy of the TD or SL without photomanipulation or hiding details. If not, then I see no reason to continue this debate and I'll move on to other more interesting stuff.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Haven't we seen the body of grainy pics there are to offer?

 

[RBJ]

Thanks for posting that, Carsten...what an AMAZING comp... hard to beat that for sure!

 

[SithLord]

Actually it is pretty easy to beat if you know something about authentic castings...

I put the answer in the tree, maybe you two should consult it.

The ESB came from the UK line. The ILM mold line fostured tour castings. So one needn't speculate about some kind of hybrid.

Taking your own comparison Carsten...your own angle...

Let's look at the scar again shall we...

The SL has the identical scar as we see on the original ANH during production, whereas the TM has the same vertical section which then curves higher away from the lower edge of the cheek than the original. The "rabbit detail" on the bottom shows it is lined up. It also shows there is just extra material on that cheek surface on the TM which came later on. The increased curve to the bottom of that scar shows up on the Corbis image which by that time the original mask would have been through more wear and tear.

Another view, again showing detail that is lined up...and that it is not an artifact of angle...

Just because there is more wear and tear on the surface of a mask doesn't mean it is more accurate....

Edited to play nice...but don't push me.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Already said I didn't line the pictures up correctly. And haven't we already beaten to death that you cannot accurately match a photograph to a screen capture? Which I also said. You are grasping at straws. The details are there, plain as day. Waste your time trying to line things up in photoshop and ignore everything we know about camera objectives and movie cameras.

I'm done.

 

[SithLord]

This does not make you an expert, and apparently, even you can miss details.

That detail pic, Carsten...wow.

Since you are so impressed by something as mundane as that, how about this...another look at what I call the rabbit detail...

Sure the TM has some lovely detail, but that doesn't mean matches the original ANH in every way. But people assume it does, until they look closer...which they obviously don't.

So I don't miss details Qui, Carsten isn't anywhere near the level of detail that I work at.

Edited: to protect the innocent...

 

[SithLord]

Again. I don't and can't agree with this. The TD and TM connects, if not for the tabs and the blobs on top of the tabs, if not for the details, if not for the grill imprint in the mouth that the TD matches with the VP and the neck extension on the VP matching that of the TM, if not for any of these things... then you cannot dispute the chin vent filler on all three. That's the 100% connecting link between these three helmets showing conclusively that they come from 1 single molding of the original. How they relate to each other and that 1 single master mold (UK mold) is still the unknown. But to elude to the TM and TD being from 2 moldings of the original is just flat out a lie.

The TD and TM are not from the same mold. And you know it. Talk about the father of the TM.

There is no neck extension on the TD. The rear of the TM neck edge is flatter (looking from the side) where the neck extension joins it...that's not the case on the SL or TD.

The amount of glue or blob material on the tabs of the TD is different from the TM.

The right tab on the TM is straightened out, released from the top surface of the mask in the front, the TD has the tab curved and closer to the surface of the mask. That cannot occur based on differences in castings coming from the same mold. A single tab cannot change its shape and move in relation to the surface of the mask in that way other than it happened to the original mask. Or have MORE glue on the front base of the tab under the screw than the TD.

Two different molds. Either that or a copy of the screen mask had an extension put on it.

These things suggest a second mold, I could be wrong. But I'm not lying ok?

The SL is from a completely other mold - the US mold. It doesn't have tabs, it doesn't have the grill imprint, it doesn't have the level chin vent filler - it is recessed. Sure, there's no confirmation yet that the UK mold sported the neck extension, it just seems likely it did... and the US mold doesn't have it as that filling feature wasn't added to the original when it was molded at that second time.

The grills are there on the SL. I said that already Carsten.

If the neck extension wasn't added when the ILM mold was made, why would you think that it existed before then on the original ANH? When would that be? During ANH? There's nothing to suggest that, Carsten, but everything suggests it is an ESB feature.

Carsten, where was the ILM mold made? You talk about the UK and US molds as if you know everything about them, but they are a concept I came up with because clearly there is the SL/DJ/MP line and the TD/TM/VP/ESB line, but you do you even know where the ILM mold was made?

 

[SithLord]

I think for the most part they used the UK mold lineage. The funeral pyre helmet was likely just a fluke one they pulled from the archive to burn at Skywalker Ranch when that scene was shot, as they probably didn't have the original helmets. Who knows why they chose an ANH styled helmet that was probably a tour. This is just speculation on my part.

I mentioned before that the funeral pyre came from the ILM mold (or a copy of something from that mold), just as ANH tour helmets did. That's something I can tell based on detail it shares with the SL ANH.

Yes they used a UK-based source for the ESB, as I've not seen anything production-wise that links back to the ILM mold...

 

[SithLord]

I'm waiting to see if the TMvsTantive picture I posted can be upstaged by a picture of more accuracy of the TD or SL without photomanipulation or hiding details. If not, then I see no reason to continue this debate and I'll move on to other more interesting stuff.

The SL and TM compared to the Tantive IV...

RAW images above of the masks, below the closeup of the scar area. NO alteration to the images.

And here with just an increase in the unsharp mask to the bottom three images equally...that's it...the lower part of the C-scar on the TM is higher up than on the original ANH, which means there was some kind of change to the front cheek face...

And for those bright-eyed ones who would say oh look at all that detail on the TM, well you might then realize that all that stuff isn't all supposed to be there, otherwise you would have the kind of detail that you see on the SL below which confirms that this is the way the C-scar was during the Tantive IV scenes...the TM just doesn't have the quality of these details, which means a lot of that schmutz on that front cheek face came later...or there was some kind of wear on that area and that's why you don't see details like these below...

Nothing out there has this kind of ANH detail....

Now that being said, the TM still does have a lot of good detail but then to say oh it is identical, oh the C-scar is identical, oh this is the closest thing to the original ANH....well sorry that's not the case. And I'm not doing this to tear down the TM I'm just saying that you have to put the details in context.


Edited to play nice and because I'm assuming from the response that Carsten got the point...

 

[CSMacLaren]

The overlay of the C-scars is an erroneous comparison. Just look at the nail marks; they are at different angles. The Tantive IV shot was done by a movie camera lens in conjunction with a closer distance. The JRX photo was taken at around 5 feet but a different kind of lens, height, and distance. Even 6" can alter the perspective distortion significantly.

 

[oujala]

This has been a fascinating read, guys. I am no Vader expert, but I think I have run across some things in my research to put some of these arguments to rest once and for all.

Behold...

(Just trying to lighten the mood, taking no shots at anyone. This is truly a good read!)

 

[CSMacLaren]

oujala,

Unfortunately, Vader collecting has descended and devolved into a squabble over pimples and pockmarks. One can thus lose sight of the picture: the REAL test is to assemble, at the very least, a properly painted life-scale bust to see if the overall shape and look have the integrity of the original.

If a mask has a zit no other mask has, and yet, once set up, the helmet looks like ass, then that basically kills whatever little credence was achieved by the zit.

 

[SithLord]

The overlay of the C-scars is an erroneous comparison. Just look at the nail marks; they are at different angles. The Tantive IV shot was done by a movie camera lens in conjunction with a closer distance. The JRX photo was taken at around 5 feet but a different kind of lens, height, and distance. Even 6" can alter the perspective distortion significantly.

You forget Mac, I already showed front views and the result was the same.

 

[SithLord]

(Just trying to lighten the mood, taking no shots at anyone. This is truly a good read!)

Actually did you pick up on George Lucas in the eye reflection of Vader during that scene....would make a nice comparison with the TM. :lol

 

[CSMacLaren]

Actually the reflection of Lucas yawning was mysteriously cast into the lens, and the first thing JRX did was to eradicate that and replace it with something less disturbing....

 

[oujala]

It is a pretty interesting subject. I agree with the helmet needing to look "right" rather than focusing on the zit. Of course that's my leaning. I suppose some of them are important to lineage.

I remember being so happy with my Walmart Vader. Thanks for ruining that! Now I can't get past the inaccuracies, ha ha.

And I thought that WAS George Lucas in that picture I posted ready to (something, something) my childhood!:lol

 

[runnriottt]

Well, here it is, allegedly, in kit form (click to enlarge):



If you zoom in, you'll see the subtleties of the shape. Don't know about you, but I see no resemblance whatsoever to a DP DLX. It's probably confused for a DP DLX due to the dome mounting system similarity.

I had one of these helmets. Its a Don Post, highly modded.. There was no dome mount at all. It was a smooth top mask. The Gypsy boy connection was thin at best. It turns out that GB tweaked only a few minor things on this helmet. Then the owner used his name all over the sales of it on Ebay a few years back. IIRC, the dome was warped.

GB did not like being associated with this helmet, and that was from GB himself. I talked to him on this issue a few years back.

GB may have used a base, but I have held one and if he did, he has changed absolutely everything on it. It is a fan sculpt.