Thanks for the photo. Where would you like it on the tree? :lol Would you (and anyone else considering the same thing) mind waiting until I've really finished the tree before posting it elsewhere? It still actually needs a bit of work/additions which I'll get to soon. Hopefully by weekend's end. But I guess there will always be things to add or improve as new things come along.
A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....
- Thread starter SithLord
- Start date
sskunky
Sr Member
is it me or does that helmet look half the size of your house!
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
And it took months to sculpt it that size. He wanted everyone to know he was a fan.is it me or does that helmet look half the size of your house!
I think it's a good effort to try and put the lineage in some form of order. As long as people don't take it at 100% face value regarding accuracy to the screen used props as such as there are pro's and con's. Naturally not everyone will agree with the tree/diagram either.
Regarding size, this has long been a debate but I understand what David and others are saying because some people own castings that are bigger than the originals and unless you see it in hand it's fairly surprising as to how that would happen. In theory it should not be that way but it does occur. I think it's best to not to squash that in any analysis, not saying it shouldn't be considered but there can be some abnormalities within the molding and casting process however rare. We know castings can vary but whether the process was done right or wrong you would swear if something was substantially bigger it was a generation or two before a smaller piece and that isn't always the case.
DK-Stands for Darth Karo (Pete/Karo) in which he was the first one to show the Paul Harrison type (Elstree props) "fourth pull" before they even advertised it, it's from the same source although I understand Pete got it elsewhere. This was shown on the Den in the privileged section . A couple of Years ago Vadermania and myself had chance to examine this helmet with Paul in person and we quickly squashed the rumour in which he accepted in comparison to the piece we showed him. The proportions of the helmet are bigger than a GH. In comparison The armour is fractionally smaller compared to the GH master but it fits and holds it's shape and proportions better. The 3 piece set at times seen on ebay and offered for a while also had a chestbox to accompany the set.
Regarding size, this has long been a debate but I understand what David and others are saying because some people own castings that are bigger than the originals and unless you see it in hand it's fairly surprising as to how that would happen. In theory it should not be that way but it does occur. I think it's best to not to squash that in any analysis, not saying it shouldn't be considered but there can be some abnormalities within the molding and casting process however rare. We know castings can vary but whether the process was done right or wrong you would swear if something was substantially bigger it was a generation or two before a smaller piece and that isn't always the case.
DK-Stands for Darth Karo (Pete/Karo) in which he was the first one to show the Paul Harrison type (Elstree props) "fourth pull" before they even advertised it, it's from the same source although I understand Pete got it elsewhere. This was shown on the Den in the privileged section . A couple of Years ago Vadermania and myself had chance to examine this helmet with Paul in person and we quickly squashed the rumour in which he accepted in comparison to the piece we showed him. The proportions of the helmet are bigger than a GH. In comparison The armour is fractionally smaller compared to the GH master but it fits and holds it's shape and proportions better. The 3 piece set at times seen on ebay and offered for a while also had a chestbox to accompany the set.
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Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
Thanks for that, Paul. That is kind of the point I was driving at...well, pretty much all of the points I was driving at. The issue with this tree idea is that one person's tree will be pushed around as gospel, and no offense to Thomas, if RR pushes it to the 501st guys, they will believe it to be so. Costumers are a funny lot sometimes.
Keep at it though, Thomas and Carsten. I am watching how this plays out with interest. Good job, guys.
Keep at it though, Thomas and Carsten. I am watching how this plays out with interest. Good job, guys.
Well if you don't believe something then offer a suggestion as to what you think it should be to improve on it.
It isn't like I'm making this whole tree up. Where did the 20th Century come from? Where did the GH come from? Where did the Fyberdyne come from? The TM? The MP? The SL? The Don Post CA? Sure we could say the lineage of any one of these is open to question, open to debate, open to discussion. But it isn't like the relationship of these was taken out of a vacuum, but rather from years of discussion and research which I've distilled into this tree.
We've discussed all of these castings and there are certain things that are either known or accepted as best we know at this time. That is what this tree is based on. That is what this tree represents.
If someone thinks it is just all my own opinion then why is it that no one offers suggestions to correct what they would see as being only my opinion? And if you have no information to offer that could bring relationships more to light then this tree is the most accurate we have at the present time given the present knowledge of the castings and if there are inaccuracies then I have asked again and again here for people to let me know how it can be improved based on what they know. So if they don't do that, this is what we have at this point and it will certainly evolve as time goes on.
Paul, who has a larger helmet than the original ANH? A larger mask? I'd like to see it.
It isn't like I'm making this whole tree up. Where did the 20th Century come from? Where did the GH come from? Where did the Fyberdyne come from? The TM? The MP? The SL? The Don Post CA? Sure we could say the lineage of any one of these is open to question, open to debate, open to discussion. But it isn't like the relationship of these was taken out of a vacuum, but rather from years of discussion and research which I've distilled into this tree.
We've discussed all of these castings and there are certain things that are either known or accepted as best we know at this time. That is what this tree is based on. That is what this tree represents.
If someone thinks it is just all my own opinion then why is it that no one offers suggestions to correct what they would see as being only my opinion? And if you have no information to offer that could bring relationships more to light then this tree is the most accurate we have at the present time given the present knowledge of the castings and if there are inaccuracies then I have asked again and again here for people to let me know how it can be improved based on what they know. So if they don't do that, this is what we have at this point and it will certainly evolve as time goes on.
Paul, who has a larger helmet than the original ANH? A larger mask? I'd like to see it.
Thomas, I know you're passionate but it's not an insult or an attack.
My tree, your tree or whoever's tree will be disagreed with to an extent. I said it was a good effort but it will never be gospel across the board. It doesn't mean that an attempt should not be made but I will state my opinion.
As for owning a helmet larger than the original there are several people in fact. Call it an abnormality but it is so. My vagueness obviously means I don't want to get into it other than to say we must colaborate on such input otherwise a piece of the puzzle goes missing.
My tree, your tree or whoever's tree will be disagreed with to an extent. I said it was a good effort but it will never be gospel across the board. It doesn't mean that an attempt should not be made but I will state my opinion.
As for owning a helmet larger than the original there are several people in fact. Call it an abnormality but it is so. My vagueness obviously means I don't want to get into it other than to say we must colaborate on such input otherwise a piece of the puzzle goes missing.
Ok right, thanks Paul. Just to get something straight, Pete showed his DK helmet on the Den in May of 2007. So do you mean that you and TM examined the set in 2008? Pete got his DK helmet/armor the middle of March 2007, even though the Harrisons had their set back in 2006. Is it known when the DK set was pulled? Since the DK and Harrison appear to share the same source, I should probably then include the Harrison as well in that group. So the armor is larger than a GH copy but smaller than the GH master?
It would be interesting to compare the size of the DK with the GH master mask.
Not directed at you Paul, but I've made it clear what the tree is so saying it shouldn't be accepted as gospel is preaching to the choir. It is a guide, no more no less. Accept it or not. Improve on it or not. But then if there are problems I think it fair that someone point them out rather than just saying the tree is inaccurate or all just someone's opinion.
What I meant is that no one has an ANH helmet larger than the original ANH. I don't know what original helmet you are referring to when you say there are "several people" with helmets larger than "the original"?
Yep, it was March 2008. There was discussion about it way before but that's when we approached the subject with Paul Harrison in person.
I don't recall the dates reagrding when they got their set as I never took enough interest in the piece. I was offered the helmet but declined as for the rest of the stuff it should be in the thread Pete did? If not just PM him.
I don't know if the armour is larger than a GH copy as I haven't compared them. Only with the Master which as you know is bigger than standard.
Agreed..:thumbsup
.
Yes, true. Rather than a general statement perhaps it was not helpful but I wanted to touch on that. The problem is lets take the dates of the casts for example, it's a good bet that's accurate but in some cases it can't be proved. Like you said it serves as a guide and like I said it will be just that. No one else has been bothered to do it so good.
I've never examined the original ANH naturally but there are more authentic casts out there than what has been documented to date. I just know there are a few fellas around that don't believe size is the dominant factor regards to generation, lineage etc. I agree it should be an important factor, makes complete sense but I've witnessed it first hand and that's the point I'm making. Something bigger should be a generation up from something smaller but it's not always concrete.
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Darth Stone
Well-Known Member
Wow, that was an interesting read. Keep it up fellas, this is really interesting.
Nightwing Returns
Sr Member
Im loving this thread. Sucks I can only read thru half tonite. Keep up the good work!
-Kevin
-Kevin
I'm a bit perplexed by this statement....? So you mean that there are more authentic castings out there that haven't been made public that are more authentic in terms of being ANH than anything we've seen so far?
CSMacLaren
Sr Member
Agreed. :thumbsup
runnriottt
Well-Known Member
Every chart is taken with a grain of salt. As far as the majority of the 501st Vader and such.. They dont give a rip. Really. I am pretty sure that a handful will care, but information is information and that is the key to everything. Holding it back does no good to anyone.
Gospel is from a book with Bible written on it. Nothing to do with fiberglass and plastic. Its all objective. That will be put out as well.
The Costumer vs Prop guys is played a little. Can we let that go?
runnriottt
Well-Known Member
Donno. I would say hybrid 20th C, but as I am not the current owner... I am more just stating what I know.
I am sure the tree is just a guide, not a verbatim end all be all and I commend the effort. I just want to get that effort on the right light and boards as we do get questions and such.
Update April 25th....added DS 20th C, new RR ESB, JB ANH prototype, ROTJ Pyre ANH, TD mask without helmet, relabeled a few things to add like "ANH" or "ESB" for clarity, restructured the SPFX and JB lineages and changed a few images with better ones, along with years. I'm sort of wondering what else to add at this point...otherwise that's about it for now. Questions/comments/corrections/specific criticisms...along with suggestions for more additions are welcome.
Originally Posted by darthvaderv
I just know there are a few fellas around that don't believe size is the dominant factor regards to generation, lineage etc. I agree it should be an important factor, makes complete sense but I've witnessed it first hand and that's the point I'm making. Something bigger should be a generation up from something smaller but it's not always concrete.
Well if those "few fellas" would like to show their castings that are larger than the original ANH and discuss them in terms of lineage and how they go against the trend I've documented, by all means, otherwise you can say whatever you like about hypothetical or secret castings out there.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
I am not for holding back info. Some do, and that is their business. Gospel is not just about the Bible, thanks for bringing religion into the thread. Another definition of gospel is something regarded as true and implicitly believed. People will accept this list, which I see has the TD back in it, as an axiom, or gospel, because one person took the time to foist his opinion on the masses.
No mention is given to the opinion of all of these helmets, original film helmets, coming from the same mold. Wouldn't that make a lot of this tree false?
As far as the costumer thing going, you are the one taking it to the SL, who I believe means Sith Legion. Are they not a costuming group? If they are not, then my apoligies for bringing it up in my ignorance.
Thomas, I know I am upsetting you, and frankly, that is no longer my intention. That was so last year. My intention is to make sure people know that this is just YOUR opinion of how a tree of Vader helmets should look. You can protest that it is not going to be taken that way, but we both know it is. If you were truly wanting people to NOT accept this is the all seeing truth, you would put caveats all over this thing. Don't shift this back on me. You are the one making the list, and of course, you should expect it to be scrutinized. It's a shame that only Carsten and I seem to be questioning your list. (I say seem, because I cannot speak for Carsten, only myself.) If I took the time to do what you are doing, I would expect it to be picked apart and take no offense in people doing it.
That said, keep up the work. It is still interesting information for members here who love Vader and cannot be bothered to join the Den.
Darth Stone
Well-Known Member
I myself think that you are giving Fyberdyne allot of respect in regards to where it is placed on the tree. I have always herd that it was more of a fan sculpt.
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
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