A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....

[SithLord]

No mention is given to the opinion of all of these helmets, original film helmets, coming from the same mold. Wouldn't that make a lot of this tree false?

Well, the ANH helmets came from one master mold. That's been confirmed. With only three or four pulls that isn't hard to believe.

The ESB helmets we can safely assume also came from a mold taken off the original ANH helmet. Everything seems to point to that, especially given the number of hero and stunt helmets made.

The ROTJ as I've found all come from one mold as well. A ROTJ mold.

So maybe you could be more specific?

We know that the ESB came from ANH, and that the ROTJ came from ESB. We know that the ROTS came from ROTJ.

So I fail to see where the tree is false on that basis? Again, if you could be more specific that would help.

My intention is to make sure people know that this is just YOUR opinion of how a tree of Vader helmets should look. You can protest that it is not going to be taken that way, but we both know it is. If you were truly wanting people to NOT accept this is the all seeing truth, you would put caveats all over this thing. Don't shift this back on me. You are the one making the list, and of course, you should expect it to be scrutinized.

That said, keep up the work. It is still interesting information for members here who love Vader and cannot be bothered to join the Den.

Well it isn't like I guessed about this tree, Qui. There is some history in regard to these castings I was able to draw from....recognized and well known history. The only intimation specifically about opinion I get from you or Carsten is about the TD. And that is understandable. I don't need to protest about anything, except that anyone who is reasonable and who knows something about the history of these castings would see that I just took that history and made a tree.

I started this thread showing some of the castings in my collection and I am prepared to discussion them, particularly the TD, if there is question about its place. Yes, the place I put the TD is my opinion based on what I studied not just about the TD but about many other castings. Even if the TD turned out to be pulled later than I think, the mold it came from still came from the original ANH at a time before the Rick Baker mold was pulled.

Was there a problem with the placement of any of the other helmets?

If you have a problem with the TD just say so or ask instead of just saying the entire tree is one person's opinion. It isn't.

Is it just my opinion that the 20th Century or DS 20th Century came from an ESB?

Is it my opinion that the GH ANH came from Don Post studios?

Is it my opinion that the JB V2 is a 20th Century mask and GH dome?

Is it my opinion that the CKing came from a DP Deluxe?

Is it my opinion that the ICPhysics comes from a Rubies FG?

Is it my opinion that the Brian Muir ROTJ is an original?

Is it my opinion that the DJ ANH came from the Rick Baker mold?

Is it my opinion that the Celtic touch came from a 20th Century?

Is it my opinion that the Sith Planet is a modified Fyberdyne?

Is it my opinion that the VMO1 came from a source similar to that of the GH?

Is it my opinion that the Elstree ROTJ is from the 20th Century?

Is the TM helmet lineage my opinion?

Is the relationship of the VP ANH with the TM my opinion?

There are some opinions I have but it is based not just on opinion but OBSERVATION AND STUDY. The ROTJ Pyre is from the Rick Baker mold. So I think is the MP. The newer SPFX helmets are from the GH ROTJ. The older from the 20th C mask/GH dome although that opinion isn't just my own.

I hope to see this tree on the Den too if people want it there.

So if you think there should be caveats then by all means list them for me.

 

[SithLord]

I myself think that you are giving Fyberdyne allot of respect in regards to where it is placed on the tree. I have always herd that it was more of a fan sculpt.

Just my 2 cents.

And as far as costumers VS the prop guys? This will go away as soon as costumers start caring even a small bit that what they have just bought was copied from another artist. I am in the 501st as well. I know for a fact that about 90% of whom I know don't give a rats ass if it is a recast or not. The 10% who do care, I will sell my high end products to. The rest get smoothed over BS.

My understanding was that it was asked whether the tree could go on Sith Lord Detachment, the 501st Vader costuming forum. I see no problem with that as long as it makes its way to a final form that at least we can agree on.

The Fyberdyne dates back as far as being available, to the early 90s and the casting it came from from well before then. It isn't a fan sculpt. It has a distinct set of modifications/refinements that make it less screen accurate. But it is no more a resculpt than the GH/Jeff ANH. There is a badly distorted Fyberdyne copy that seemed to spawn all manner of castings, but the father of the Fyberdyne is basically the father of that whole Fyberdyne/GH/VM lineage, and is reported to date back to Don Post studios (by people who worked for Don Post).

This is the way a Fyberdyne originally looked like without the extreme distortion...this particular one belonged to Darth Jones.

 

[SithLord]

Just so that people understand that the placement of the TD in the tree didn't come out of thin air.

The father of the previous owner of the TD ANH got the mask in 1986 from a lady who worked in the prop department of ANH. This gentleman also received other movie items from the lady. It turns out that the lady also worked on a film in the 1960s which had Stuart Freeborn as a makeup artist in it as well. So her career in props goes pretty far back. I haven't had the opportunity to ask Stuart Freeborn whether he might know the lady, as that would be helpful to the provenance of the mask, however you-know-who didn't honor my request.

The mask itself is interesting in many ways. It has been painted all black, four coats, with an underlying base coat of silver-grey (or gunmetal if you will). With all the reference we have of the screen ANH helmet, if someone wanted a perfect black paint like the original, the TD has it. I can't say it is original paint, but if you saw it in person, you probably couldn't imagine it any other way. Both Brian Muir and Dave Prowse are certain that the Vader mask initially was painted all black. This is supported by the fact that the gunmetal paint is brushed on over the black on the original ANH mask.

It has an interesting foam pattern similar to originals from the LFL archives. The foam itself is obviously very old, showing signs of extensive deterioration and discoloring.

The fiberglass weave is also similar to that of helmets seen in the archives. It is a thin casting, again similar to the originals.

It has cut tube ends but I haven't yet found out if they are in the casting or not. But the inside part of the tube convergences are the sharpest and most accurate of any ANH mask, or mask in general.

The mask itself appears to have come from a full head mold (a mold with front and rear halves) as the original sculpture was a full head with front and back halves. The amount and shape of the undercut in the rear reflects this. There is also indication of how the front and rear halves were attached to one another initially, before they decided during ANH to go with just the front mask (and I don't just mean what one would see on the top of the mask behind the tabs).

The mask is made of a unique type of resin that I've found was used for other props on the ANH production, although there is a large region on the chin area that has its own type of resin different from the rest of the mask (perhaps to build up that area since the chin vent would be cut out, but I'm not sure). The mask has some bondo work done on the rear section in two areas likely to conceal the attachment mechanism front/rear. There is also some work on the rear lower rear corners of the neck, but that is actually part of the fiberglass.

The mask itself also was cast from something that didn't have lenses, unlike other castings such as the VP or SL. However one can see where lenses would go as there is more material interior to where the lenses would be seated, as I am able to compare using the SL ANH.

Apart from the foam, there are other indications the mask was used. The mask has paint inside in a very particular pattern, namely for the purpose of wearing it. The mask was used extensively with a dome. It has a wear pattern on the top in the paint consistent with the use of a dome. The rear of the mask was drilled with holes likely for use of some kind of strap for wearing, the same holes drilled into the mouth slots and chin vent, those being there as a prelude for cutting out those areas.

The nose slots are the original shape and thickness as I know this as the original scupting tool used to make them fits perfectly.

The size of the mask is consistent with something close in generation to the original ANH.

Upon seeing the mask in person, Brian Muir seemed to think that it was a casting of an original (actually thought cast specifically from the fourth original pull), but didn't see why it would come from the ANH production if they already had a mold to work with. So he doesn't think it came from the production.

I could go on, but in summary the TD ANH isn't just a quick pull someone took from a mold lying around. It has received a lot of professional attention, for whatever reason I do not know. But in the six years I've had it, I've taken every opportunity to compare it with whatever comes along that might be something "more", but so far nothing yet seems to be earlier. Maybe something will, hopefully soon, and at least then I'll hopefully know more about this unusual mask. But that is a little bit about why I put it where I did in the tree.

 

[SithLord]

Here's another one of my "opinions"....

 

[GINO]

I told myself that I did not want to fully engage in this discussion because I know that regardless of the 'debate' that would ensue, that there would be no resolution, and it would only degenerate into personal insults.
Better to just state my position, and move on.
However with the amount of attention this thread is getting, I do think it is important to refute these specific aspects.
Mind you, these are not the only things I disagree with about this tree, but they are what I find to be the most offensive.

The ROTJ as I've found all come from one mold as well. A ROTJ mold.

This is simply not true. I have pointed this out to you many times on multiple forums.
The ROTJ helmets were repurposed ESB helmets. There were no ROTJ specific molds. In other words, no new vader helmet or armor molds were made specifically for the ROTJ production. The ESB molds did not become the ROTJ molds just because they were reused for the ROTJ production.

We know that the ESB came from ANH, and that the ROTJ came from ESB. We know that the ROTS came from ROTJ.

No, we don't know, so stop saying this like it is some established fact because it is not.
Like I said above, that is simply incorrect.

Therefore everything falling underneath that point on the tree is incorrect as well. And since that is like the second item down from the top, that pretty much makes almost the entire thing incorrect.



What you fail to realize is that once the screen used ANH was molded, it fathered 'base castings'. These base castings are what became the ESB and ROTJ screen used helmets. They all started out the same and were INDIVIDUALLY CONVERTED, which is the primary cause for some of the physical differences between individual helmets (even within the same film).

Now, there are a handful of these 'base casting' derivatives that have made it out into the public domain and a number of people on these forums have them.
Are some from the actual mold that came off the original ANH? Are some from castings of one of those castings. Or a casting from that? Or even a casting of THAT?
Answer:
There is NO DEFINITIVE WAY TO TELL.

By trying to determine lineage based on size variations of "fractions of a millimeter" (your own words), or because one casting has an imperceptible blemish while another one does not, is completely unreliable and foolhardy.
You might as well use a magic 8 ball and get just as 'reliable' results.
While you see yourself as being scientific focusing on the minutiae, the reality is that you simply are not seeing the bigger picture.

I know this is difficult for you to accept, but it is the truth.

And where the TD is concerned (since it keeps coming up), it is the opinion of many (including some Gino haters ) that for years that you have been attempting to position it higher in lineage/pedigree than it deserves. While I feel you genuinely created this list to help the community, I feel this is also partially a platform to position the TD.
And when it is seen to be placed in a position that the majority of the established vader 'fanatics' disagree with, a lot of us find it offensive.


Now, with that being said.
Some would say, well why not at least attempt to put together some sort of lineage based on...at least something? Isn't that better than nothing?

I would say absolutely not. Which is why this thread is so offensive to me. It does more harm than good simply because these charts not based in fact easily become the accepted truth amongst people who have not taken the time to do the hard research for themselves.
And we all know how hard it is to fight against the 'accepted truth' once it becomes so. I've spent way too much time over the years on this forum trying to dispel incorrect information/theories (and unintentionally making many enemies while doing so).


If you seriously want some constructive criticism, here is some.
Instead of trying to put together a lineage tree based mostly on theory where the hard facts are simply just not available, why not just start halfway down the tree.
Start with helmets where we factually KNOW the lineage WITHOUT controversy.
I'm speaking about the lineage of the fan made recasts.
The lineage of most of them is clear and by and large without controversy.
Why not just document those items that are not in question, and leave the items that are in question completely out?
By doing this, I believe you would actually get the support and participation of the other hardcore vader people instead of offending them.

Because when you include items with questionable placement or inaccurate information, it only provides a disservice to the community, even when the original intent was to help.


.

 

[skynet]

Hm...

I've read through your whole post Gino and this time I can totally understand your point but I can't critisize or support it because I have very little knowledge of helmets like TM, TD, VP, SL and so on.

Anyway, it IS an interesting thread but it's a calculation with too many variables in it...at least for me.

And I hope it is possile to write this without being classified as a supporter or hater of someone.

EDIT: Just for interest, is it possible to speak privately with somebody about fan made vader helmets in general? I'm not interested in "secrets" or something, I just want the ability to speak with someone privately just because I have huge interest in these things.

I don't want to ask questions here in the public for peace sake.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I don't want to ask questions here in the public for peace sake.

You should never be afraid to ask questions in public. It's a sad state when people refrain from asking questions because they fear some knuckleheads (myself included) are too tightly wrapped to keep calm.

Post away.

Interesting notion about keeping the uncertain aspects out of the tree... could be a way to go.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

What Carsten said, Skynet. We need to stop getting our undies in a bunch when we are questioned about these things, myself included. It should be possible to write up something without being classified in one camp or the other, or the other, or the other. So, have at it.

As far as only posting factual information, that would be ideal, and should be done.

 

[runnriottt]

I see this chart as a step forward. Regardless of the past. Like it or not, people buy stuff and collect stuff. With a good chart it will be easier to do so. Dont want to buy a recast? The chart shows what is what. Easy. So Gino, your recast personal war is taken care of in the chart itself.

Qui, I have no issues with you really. The costume and prop debate is old. For a costumer I have some pretty bad ass props. There are people that split that fence. I wear the best available Vader so when kids see me... it is Darth Vader, not a good costume of Darth Vader. Big difference. I dont expect those that dont costume to see the point, but that is the point. Ill move on and stop at that. We agree to disagree.

I see only one issue that everyone keeps having, and that is SL's helmets. You know what? There damn nice lids. I have a TD. Do I think its second Gen? Donno. Dont care. I can tell you its far in wide better than any other of the 8 helmets I have held and some others I own. This camp, that camp... Played and old. 'bout time we did this, and I commend SL for digging in and doing it. I see he is open to others opinons and that is what makes this cool. I dont see a one sided story here.

Well, one... but that is normal.

So finally a chart for noobs and novices to look at. What is the big deal?

 

[vaderdarth]

I like the chart personally. Nothing stands out as a blatant error. Even if the resulting ESB/ROTJ helmets do originate from their own ANH based castings, there are still size issues that have to be considered. Any proof supporting or against the chart would be welcome. The purpose is being helpful regardless. I have held the TD and can verify the morphology that Tom mentions. It is different and sharper than any castings I've seen so far. It does go more completely behind the head than any casting I've seen. The nose ridges are extremely sharp and defined. The eye holes are less trimmed front to back than any other casting out there. I believe it to be a sister helmet of the original ANH helmet. I believe it to be modified for wear, yet unused in the production. Some extremely knowledgable production staff from ANH also believe this. I believe it's been verified to come from the first original mould by these individuals. I don't believe that is disputable because it has landmarks that only show up in the very first ANH mould. I believe only 3 useable castings came from that mould before it was destroyed.

If you don't like the chart simply because you don't want the TD helmet in there..........so be it. The chart doesn't require the TD to be helpful. It's not helpful as far as the other helmets go simply because there are no derivatives out there of the TD helmet. But it is what it is. Tom doesn't need to convince everyone else of the lineage of his helmet, he's received that from the only people that truly matter for that discussion.

He's very kind to even give us the morphological info on the TD. It truly is fascinating.

Getting back to the overall chart. It matters not, whether the various sequel film branches come from one another, or from original ANH based castings from ILM. They still have resultant derivative helmets and even if they are one or a few steps back up the line, it's everything thereafter that most collectors are interested in. Most collectors don't have the ability to get the castings very very close to production, they are only able to get hands on derivatives. So in that respect, the chart does help.

Peace everyone,

Dave

 

[vaderdarth]

Skynet, I have held and or painted the vast majority of the derivative helmets you are asking about. Gimme a holler via PM anytime if you want to chat about them in detail.

Dave

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I have held the TD and can verify the morphology that Tom mentions. It is different and sharper than any castings I've seen so far. It does go more completely behind the head than any casting I've seen. The nose ridges are extremely sharp and defined. The eye holes are less trimmed front to back than any other casting out there. I believe it to be a sister helmet of the original ANH helmet. I believe it to be modified for wear, yet unused in the production. Some extremely knowledgable production staff from ANH also believe this. I believe it's been verified to come from the first original mould by these individuals. I don't believe that is disputable because it has landmarks that only show up in the very first ANH mould. I believe only 3 useable castings came from that mould before it was destroyed.

It is not an ANH production helmet. Cast tabs and other details prove that. And the mold that produced the original ANH helmets likely still exists, but was NOT used to create the TD. It has too many similarities in certain details with the TM regarding the filler used when molding the original to be anything but from what we call the UK mold lineage.

I can only wonder why any production staff can make such claims, when evidence speaks to the contrary.

 

[GINO]

It is not an ANH production helmet. Cast tabs and other details prove that. And the mold that produced the original ANH helmets likely still exists, but was NOT used to create the TD. It has too many similarities in certain details with the TM regarding the filler used when molding the original to be anything but from what we call the UK mold lineage.

I can only wonder why any production staff can make such claims.

Agreed on all points except for the part about the original mold off the ANH sculpture still existing.


.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I see this chart as a step forward. Regardless of the past. Like it or not, people buy stuff and collect stuff. With a good chart it will be easier to do so. Dont want to buy a recast? The chart shows what is what. Easy. So Gino, your recast personal war is taken care of in the chart itself.

Actually... neither SL nor myself will be indicating which is recast or not. At least it didn't read like that from SL's posts.

 

[hyperdyne]

I think putting an agenda-free chart together like this is a great idea. Of course people will disagree, particularly when some lineage is nebulous. But having a chart to start with is great. I learned something by reading it.

I have even seen people misrepresent the trooper armor lineage, which is unbelievable given that it is fairly well known. But sometimes misinformation spreads like wildfire....

 

[skynet]

Ok then I will give it a try with some questions...please note, that these questions do NOT represent my personal opinion (except the Elstree Vader).

1.) The whole bunch of SPFX helmets (ANH, ESB, ROTJ).

My knowledge is (at least thats what I've read), that Phil's helmets are recasts, which are mostly a combination of different domes and facemasks. The facemasks were heavily modified as he progressed in offering them to the public (adding/removing details).

First they were mostly modified 20th century facemasks but then he went on to recast a GH ROTJ facemask (and dome?).

Now I had a conversation with Phil a year ago about various helmets and he stated, that the GH ROTJ is a recast of the Rubies helmet they used on their life sized vader statue.

He argued, that the facemask of the GH ROTJ is way too small just like the facemask on the lifesize Rubies.

Luckily owning a GH ROTJ, I've tried to compare it to the Rubies lifesize statue helmet but there are only a few good pictures of the Rubies lifesize so this was not possible.

Now, I did not believe Phil because there simply was only his statement but nothing to proof it...anyway, I then became very interested on the lineage of the GH ROTJ.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to boost the value of the helmet and I don't really care if it has relations to a screenused mask or not - it IS just a very very nice bucket which I will never part with, but I never read anything about it's lineage or origin.

2.) The Elstree ROTJ Vader:

I recently sold the helmet, but I had a DS 20th Century at the time the Elstree was still in my posession. I've compared them indepth and I can say that the Elstree is a direct copy/recast of a 20th century. It was just a little cleaned up, but more or less it is just a 1:1 recast.

Now there is NO information about who the maker of these was and what kind of story there was back in the day regarding it's lineage.

It would be interesting to learn more about that too.

3.) Tusk tubes on vader helmets:

This was a thing that always bothered me...take different helmets side by side and have a look at the UPPER tusk tubes. On some vader helmets they are more straight, on some of them they are really curved.

Why is this??

Mold warpage? Bad casts? Or was it the same on the original helmets, that the upper tusk tubes were slightly curved?

On a helmet which has mostly geometrical forms (triangular mouth/chin vent, straight slits on the nosebridge) it looks odd that the lower tusk tubes are straight and the upper ones are curved.

These are the three questions I mostly have on Vader helmets, but plz forgive that this is may off topic.

It's not my intention to steer the thread away, so PM's are very welcome if someone wants to.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Well, sorta had to start over, as some pixelation artifacts started piling up in the original .jpg file, so I switched to working in .png that keeps things nice and clean. Due to unforeseen events I've had to neglect working on this for a while and may not give it full attention for some while, but I'll do a little here and a little there and eventually finish it up, so it will look rather different than the one I posted previously.

As this is a work in progress I don't expect many to make much sense out of it, since several lines and connections and helmets are missing, but rest assured... things are making sense to me... so far... or... not... :confused

lol

Well... I had to clean up a lot of the images I had, so they'd look neat and pretty on the list. Also... the Area with the original helmets may change before finalization, so that's not how it may end up looking - concept and execution.

No seriously. Have fun.

 

[vaderdarth]

It is not an ANH production helmet. Cast tabs and other details prove that. And the mold that produced the original ANH helmets likely still exists, but was NOT used to create the TD. It has too many similarities in certain details with the TM regarding the filler used when molding the original to be anything but from what we call the UK mold lineage.

I can only wonder why any production staff can make such claims, when evidence speaks to the contrary.

Evidence in all accounts, is not concrete. And did you get a chance to hold the TD helmet to be able to make that assessment? And no the original mould used to create the ANH helmet does not exist today. It was destroyed during production. Seriously man, that's old news. Do a little research.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Evidence in all accounts, is not concrete. And did you get a chance to hold the TD helmet to be able to make that assessment? And no the original mould used to create the ANH helmet does not exist today. It was destroyed during production. Seriously man, that's old news. Do a little research.

I don't need to hold it to know that it isn't an ANH production helmet from the original mold.

And I have and clearly got some info mixed up, sorry.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Skynet... I'm a little confused at what the questions are in those points, so hope I'm giving answers to your questions?

With the first one... are you asking about the SPFX or the GH RotJ? The Rubies statue had a different helmet than their regular fiberglass helmet - much better. Those who've had access to one could possibly answer whether they are related or it came from something else.

For the second one - Cyberman was given a cast to clean up for someone else and didn't know the origin and that's the creation of the Elstree, afaik.

The third - depending on how close to the originals you get the straighter the sides of the cheeks and tusk tubes get. The farther away... the more inward bent and curved that are.

Hope that helps a little.